EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

robbie99 · 22-10-2015 12:07am

@ boatman, What exactly is the full suite of EPA tests you're talking about and which of these tests are you saying that VW can't pass [with the defeat device enabled]?

Earlier in this thread I pointed you to a CARB report confirming that the two VW cars easily passed two lab based US certification tests and I'm not sure that ad-hoc on the road PEMS testing is part of official EPA testing.

josip · 22-10-2015 10:59am

gctest50 wrote: »

.
Fiat Italy are offering 1500 extra in a Volkswagen-clunkers deal

.

"up to 1500"

The trade-in bonus is 500 euros for the Fiat Panda, Punto and 500 models, and the same amount for the Lancia Ypsilon and Alfa Romeo MiTo. The incentive grows to 750 euros for the Fiat 500L, 500X and Freemont, the Alfa Giulietta and the Jeep Renegade, Cherokee and Wrangler. The highest incentive is 1,500 euros on the Grand Cherokee.

Will Fiat be giving the bonus based on previous trade in prices for used VWs or against a new lower, post debacle, price range?

Gazzmonkey · 22-10-2015 1:14pm

Just received my letter from VW this morning about my toxic A4, it's pretty much a clone of the text on that 'check your car' website they set up recently.

Thanks for that Lars but I choose to opt out

5W30 · 22-10-2015 1:16pm

Gazzmonkey wrote: »

Just received my letter from VW this morning about my toxic A4, it's pretty much a clone of the text on that 'check your car' website they set up recently.

Thanks for that Lars but I choose to opt out

And I guess continue pretending that there is nothing wrong with your car :cool:

novarock · 22-10-2015 1:19pm

Here we go - Its only getting worse!

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/vw-emissions-scandal-ea288-engine-also-being-investigated

Gazzmonkey · 22-10-2015 1:19pm

5W30 wrote: »

And I guess continue pretending that there is nothing wrong with your car :cool:

Erm.... it got me to work like it always did, still driving 100% perfectly

You lost me!!!

5W30 · 22-10-2015 1:24pm

Gazzmonkey wrote: »

Erm.... it got me to work like it always did, still driving 100% perfectly

You lost me!!!

So does a 6 litre cummins that can reek enough smoke that you couldn't see the road though.

"VW admits it's testing earlier generation of EA288 engine for emissions test cheat"

Testing their own engine to see if it has the emissions test cheat??? Wow. People actually pay a company which doesn't know anything about the cars they make.

BoatMad · 22-10-2015 1:29pm

robbie99 wrote: »

@ boatman, What exactly is the full suite of EPA tests you're talking about and which of these tests are you saying that VW can't pass [with the defeat device enabled]?

Earlier in this thread I pointed you to a CARB report confirming that the two VW cars easily passed two lab based US certification tests and I'm not sure that ad-hoc on the road PEMS testing is part of official EPA testing.

could you point out that link again , as I have read the source documentation and cannot find that any " easily passed"

heres the relevant section from the CARB letter to VW

CARB commenced confirmatory testing on May 6, 2015 to determine the efficacy of the
recall on both the Gen1 and Gen2 vehicles. CARB confirmatory testing was completed
on a 2012 model—year Gen2 VW, test group CVWX02.0U4S, to be followed with Gen1
testing. CARB staff tested this vehicle on required certiﬁcation cycles (FTP, US06 and
HWFET) and over-the-road using a Portable Emission Measurement Systems (PEMS).
On some certification cycles, the recall calibration resulted in the vehicle failing the NOX
standard. Over—the-road FEMS testing showed that the recall calibration did reduce the
emissions to some degree but NOx emissions were still signiﬁcantly higher than
expected.

note " On some certification cycles, the recall calibration resulted in the vehicle failing the NOX
standard"

BoatMad · 22-10-2015 1:33pm

novarock wrote: »

Here we go - Its only getting worse!

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/vw-emissions-scandal-ea288-engine-also-being-investigated

in itself the existence of so - called " defeat software" is not evidence that the engine failed or cheated Euro testing

I see the EPA and CARB are now extending the on-road and new lab tests to all light diesel vehicles and has ordered test vehicles to be made available , now the sh!t is about to hit the fan in a massive way

also VW have till Nov 20 to outline a rectification plan for US diesels, this will be fun to watch

Special Circumstances · 22-10-2015 1:55pm

5W30 wrote: »

Testing their own engine to see if it has the emissions test cheat??? Wow. People actually pay a company which doesn't know anything about the cars they make.

The level of spoof they think the public will swallow is just unbelievable.

Anyone watch James May's "building cars live"? Just in time delivery of doors, accessories, bumpers all in the righ colour, all in the right spec, all in the right order. Multiple quality tests. Everything checked off against a unique number for that car and a transponder so they can track the car through the whole plant.

But VW don't even have a version control sytem? Just some lad loading software ad-hoc? What do their final quality checks consist of - yeah it turns on, it definitely has some sort of software on there.

Spoofing yet again or their quality systems would make a fred-in-a-shed engineering company look good.

vectra · 22-10-2015 2:54pm

novarock wrote: »

Here we go - Its only getting worse!

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/vw-emissions-scandal-ea288-engine-also-being-investigated

How is it getting worse?
They are only checking.
Also,
Maybe you should have read to full article first.

UK recall 'won't be mandatory'

The UK's Department for Transport has confirmed that it won't be issuing a mandatory recall for cars affected by Volkswagen's emissions scandal in this country.

Speaking to Autocar, a DfT spokesman confirmed that the UK won't follow the example set by the German authorities in issuing a mandatory recall for affected cars. Volkswagen has already started a voluntary recall program for cars in this country, but the DfT has made clear that "this is VW's position and VW's problem."

"We will continue to put pressure on VW to make sure this happens as quickly as possible," said the spokesman "so that people in the UK can have these problems fixed.

"The government has been putting pressure on VW to address these issues quickly. The government expects VW to set up the next steps on how they are going to correct this problem and support owners in the UK. In the past few weeks the Transport Secretary has spoken to the German Transport Minister about the actions of VW, and has been reassured that the German authorities are working closely with VW."

In Germany, the federal transport authority, the KBA, is forcing Volkswagen to recall the 2.4 million cars in the country which have its 'defeat device' software installed.

You can be assured Ireland will follow as in not mandatory.

Truckermal · 22-10-2015 6:28pm

We got a letter for our sh1tbox today too..

pablo128 · 22-10-2015 6:54pm

Our company was offered a load of aftermarket VW parts today at a very good price. It seems the Chinese are turning away VW parts, causing a glut of them on the market now.

mickdw · 22-10-2015 7:09pm

Truckermal wrote: »

We got a letter for our sh1tbox today too..

Got the letter re family passat today also.
Dedicated email address enclosed for any queries.
I would like to put together a nice email for them just for fun.

dr.fuzzenstein · 22-10-2015 7:22pm

mickdw wrote: »

Got the letter re family passat today also.
Dedicated email address enclosed for any queries.
I would like to put together a nice email for them just for fun.

Well, you could ask them exactly what is wrong with the car and what this "fix" entails. I would genuinely be curious what they say.

Lissavane · 22-10-2015 8:28pm

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Well, you could ask them exactly what is wrong with the car and what this "fix" entails. I would genuinely be curious what they say.

And it might be no harm to enquire if the "fix" will affect performance and fuel economy, positively / negatively / no change.

I'd be surprised if you get direct answers to those questions but VW Group's reply would certainly be interesting to see.

BoatMad · 22-10-2015 9:13pm

Special Circumstances wrote: »

The level of spoof they think the public will swallow is just unbelievable.

Anyone watch James May's "building cars live"? Just in time delivery of doors, accessories, bumpers all in the righ colour, all in the right spec, all in the right order. Multiple quality tests. Everything checked off against a unique number for that car and a transponder so they can track the car through the whole plant.

But VW don't even have a version control sytem? Just some lad loading software ad-hoc? What do their final quality checks consist of - yeah it turns on, it definitely has some sort of software on there.

Spoofing yet again or their quality systems would make a fred-in-a-shed engineering company look good.

indeed which is why I really think the " software " is a ruse to deflect away from overall corporate malfeasance

novarock · 23-10-2015 10:35am

vectra wrote: »

How is it getting worse?
They are only checking.
Also,
Maybe you should have read to full article first.

You can be assured Ireland will follow as in not mandatory.

I see the end game of this being most if not all manufacturers admitting that NOX levels are high from their diesels, maybe not next year, but soon enough governments will get their pound of flesh from the drivers in terms of diesel usage. 'Checking' is an admission of guilt in my opinion, How long realistically would it take to check what software is loaded on to a car. Less time than it takes to write a press release about it anyway!

Special Circumstances · 23-10-2015 10:51am

novarock wrote: »

I see the end game of this being most if not all manufacturers admitting that NOX levels are high from their diesels, maybe not next year, but soon enough governments will get their pound of flesh from the drivers in terms of diesel usage.

DEFINITELY one possible outcome of this - but I see some "correction" factor applied to everything, nothing to see here folks, these are not the emissions you are looking for, we've just made diesel clean again with the stroke of a pen. (Ts and Cs apply, "clean" in Europe has been redefined compared to other jurisdictions)

novarock wrote: »

'Checking' is an admission of guilt in my opinion, How long realistically would it take to check what software is loaded on to a car. Less time than it takes to write a press release about it anyway!

Market research by VW has revealed that the majority of their diesel customers view software as being somewhere between magic and voodoo, it cannot be easily captured or tamed. They'll swallow anything their told in this regard.

vectra · 23-10-2015 11:30am

novarock wrote: »

I see the end game of this being most if not all manufacturers admitting that NOX levels are high from their diesels, maybe not next year, but soon enough governments will get their pound of flesh from the drivers in terms of diesel usage. 'Checking' is an admission of guilt in my opinion, How long realistically would it take to check what software is loaded on to a car. Less time than it takes to write a press release about it anyway!

Not very long I would assume but the only thing is how easy is it to identify which exact models need to be checked?

Some cars with seemingly same engines are affected while others are not.

"Needle in a haystack"

Special Circumstances · 23-10-2015 11:36am

vectra wrote: »

Not very long I would assume but the only thing is how easy is it to identify which exact models need to be checked?

Some cars with seemingly same engines are affected while others are not.

"Needle in a haystack"

If by needle in a haystack you mean that they are manufacturing VWs in a barn with chickens running in and out and improvising when they run out of parts etc, then yeah I can see how they would have no record of what software version was loaded before they hunted the goats out of the boot and wheeled it onto the converted sheep lorry for delivery.

If you mean that a modern automotive plant does not know what software version was loaded, by which programming station, to the very second of when it happened, and what technician was on duty at the time.... then you have very low quality expectations.

BoatMad · 23-10-2015 11:38am

remember most of what VW is engaged in in Europe is " optics". Unlike the USA, there has not yet been any independent tests that say o e hing or another .

in the US they have to present their solution by Nov 20th , that will be interesting as to how they make Gen1 cars ( LNT) compliant , I dont think they can myself .

IN europe we are seeing lynch mob, running around looking for the black guy, with VW alternatively riding with the posse, ( "well get those engineers" or being the "black man"

Its PR smoke and mirrors ( mostly smoke !!!), the software is irrelevant to cars already deemed to have passed Euro 5 or 6 testing ( and no-one has said they havent passed properly )

Expect this all to go away within 6 in europe months as VW , perform recalls, mutter magic voodoo words and pronounce your good old passat well and truly " exorcised " of " various bad things "

However in the US , its going to get very very sticky for all light diesels as CARB tests everybody as it now says it will , expect lots of skin and hair to fly around

( CARB is very aggressively anti hydrocarbon )

vectra · 23-10-2015 11:40am

Special Circumstances wrote: »

If by needle in a haystack you mean that they are manufacturing VWs in a barn with chickens running in and out and improvising when they run out of parts etc, then yeah I can see how they would have no record of what software version was loaded before they hunted the goats out of the boot and wheeled it onto the converted sheep lorry for delivery.

If you mean that a modern automotive plant does not know what software version was loaded, by which programming station, to the very second of when it happened, and what technician was on duty at the time.... then you have very low quality expectations.

Sure maybe you should take a trip over to them and have it sorted in 20 minutes .. :pac:
Why wait for all these highly qualified guys scratching their heads that obviously haven't a clue what they are doing and just "Winged" thier way into the job first day .

BoatMad · 23-10-2015 11:41am

vectra wrote: »

Not very long I would assume but the only thing is how easy is it to identify which exact models need to be checked?

Some cars with seemingly same engines are affected while others are not.

"Needle in a haystack"

all 189 engines are affected as they have the same base ECU code, VW confirmed yesterday that 288 engines are not effected ( 288 has a combined DFP, SCR adblue system , thats very complex )

vectra · 23-10-2015 11:44am

BoatMad wrote: »

all 189 engines are affected as they have the same base ECU code, VW confirmed yesterday that 288 engines are not effected ( 288 has a combined DFP, SCR adblue system , thats very complex )

Mine is a 288 and has no adblue.?

BoatMad · 23-10-2015 11:51am

vectra wrote: »

Sure maybe you should take a trip over to them and have it sorted in 20 minutes .. :pac:
Why wait for all these highly qualified guys scratching their heads that obviously haven't a clue what they are doing and just "Winged" thier way into the job first day .

Play act 1 ( and apologies to our german friends )

hans , a management type
villy, a stressed out geek ECU programmer

" yah villy, The bunker hast issued orders to find this software and remove it"

" ah ok, hans, what software is that , I should know because I wrote all of it"

" villy villy, the " defeat software " , that the pesky akericanners discovered, where have you been these last days"

" uh, hans, I havst been verking on the ECU for the 388 engine, the bunker is keen to ship it"

" nein nein, villy, that has all changed, our priority is must find and remove the defeat software , yah?"

" but hans, what defeat software , there isn't any , do you mean the ECU SCR LNT control module code"

" yah yah thats its villy, thats it remove it quickly the bunker is really mad, that you put it in there, you could be fired"

" but but hans, you saw the specifikation, you approved this"

" nein villy, you are mistaken, I think you made this up on your own"

" but hans , if I remove this code , the engine vill not verk at all, its runs the whole system"

" villy, villy, I dont care , remove the " defeat software " OK"

"hans , looking stunned , deletes all the comments in a piece of ECU code, reruns the toolchain", marks it " "version 1.01A- nodefeat". hands it to Hans

" gut gut, villy " and by the way you're fired.

press release . VW identified roque engineer , has quickly moved to correct the issues and re-engineer a fix, and we're terribly sorry to our customers our staff. Hers a bonus coffee, and by the way we fired the engineer, we shall now move on and ensure that we VW group never does this again ( well until at least next year anyway )

BoatMad · 23-10-2015 11:57am

vectra wrote: »

Mine is a 288 and has no adblue.?

has it any urea additive , in europe its possible to pass current Euro 6 with just a lean NOX trap ( which performs terribly on road by the way )

The NEDC test is just a joke for emissions control

Special Circumstances · 23-10-2015 11:58am

vectra wrote: »

Sure maybe you should take a trip over to them and have it sorted in 20 minutes .. :pac:
Why wait for all these highly qualified guys scratching their heads that obviously haven't a clue what they are doing and just "Winged" thier way into the job first day .

Quality must be designed into the system first day... if they are that far behind the rest of the manufacturers' quality sytems then there's nothing I or anyone else can do for them now!

R.O.R · 23-10-2015 12:15pm

BoatMad wrote: »

has it any urea additive , in europe its possible to pass current Euro 6 with just a lean NOX trap ( which performs terribly on road by the way )

The 150ps version of the 2.0Tdi engine that Vectra has in the Passat, doesn't have any AdBlue. The same engine in the Audi A6 does have AdBlue.

The 190ps 2.0Tdi Passat (and Superb) do have AdBlue - think it's also in 4Motion/4x4 150ps Passat & Superbs.

BoatMad · 23-10-2015 12:28pm

R.O.R wrote: »

The 150ps version of the 2.0Tdi engine that Vectra has in the Passat, doesn't have any AdBlue. The same engine in the Audi A6 does have AdBlue.

The 190ps 2.0Tdi Passat (and Superb) do have AdBlue - think it's also in 4Motion/4x4 150ps Passat & Superbs.

so the non adblue all have lean nox traps , as I said all of them can pass Euro6

none of the LNT tech will pass the newer WLTC style testing due in next year

EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

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