EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

Leonard Hofstadter

I think VW will weather the storm in the long run. It will cause them some short term pain and some short term sales losses, but in the long run they'll get over it. Just look at Toyota in Ireland, they were the market leader before the unintended acceleration scandal and it did hit them in the short run, but they're still comfortably second and they still go for a lot of money second hand. They might become number one again after this, but either way VW will continue to remain one of Ireland's most popular car brand, and the VW Group combined are comfortably the market leader, and they will remain so. If the fall from grace with reliability didn't kill them off, why would emissions (which most people couldn't give a flying fiddlers about, as most people only see emissions as CO2 anyway) do it?

Marcusm

The Yanks have started streamlining lawsuits to maximise the lawyers' take sorry the legitimate compensation claims.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/27/business/lawyers-jostle-for-lead-position-in-volkswagen-diesel-suits.html?ref=automobiles&referer=http://www.nytimes.com/pages/automobiles/index.html?hpw&rref&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well&nytmobile=0

Marcusm

Marcusm wrote: »

The Yanks have started streamlining lawsuits to maximise the lawyers' take sorry the legitimate compensation claims.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/27/business/lawyers-jostle-for-lead-position-in-volkswagen-diesel-suits.html?ref=automobiles&referer=http://www.nytimes.com/pages/automobiles/index.html?hpw&rref&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well&nytmobile=0

Delighted for them, might make them think twice in the future !

Now lets find other car manufacturers who are cheating emissions tests !

bazz26

Certain GM cars that suffer from the occasional case of spontaneous combustion don't seem to create the same level of shock and public outrage. But then again if it doesn't happen in the good old US of A then it doesn't really matter.

Long Time Lurker

bazz26 wrote: »

Certain GM cars that suffer from the occasional case of spontaneous combustion don't seem to create the same level of shock and public outrage. But then again if it doesn't happen in the good old US of A then it doesn't really matter.

See it's different. Its the same reason all the Toyota recalls caused them such a furore. Peoples perception of GM is they're shiote anyway. In other words they're not surprised when it happens. In fact its almost expected. Hence it doesn't take as long for them to shrug off the negative effects.

They're (GM) starting from a low point already. When it happens to VW, especially given that it was no accident and it was specifically contrived to deceive, then its a major issue particularly given VWs perceived standing. VW put themselves in a position that was just waiting for them to be knocked down and by god they did it in style. They're both a victim of their own success and they've fallen foul of their own self righteousness. Where as GM just made cheap stuff VW actually went out of their way to deceive people and at one hell of a profit.

bazz26

bazz26 wrote: »

Certain GM cars that suffer from the occasional case of spontaneous combustion don't seem to create the same level of shock and public outrage. But then again if it doesn't happen in the good old US of A then it doesn't really matter.

More like if it's not American then it's not perfect !

bazz26

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

See it's different. Its the same reason all the Toyota recalls caused them such a furore. Peoples perception of GM is they're shiote anyway. In other words they're not surprised when it happens. In fact its almost expected. Hence it doesn't take as long for them to shrug off the negative effects.

They're (GM) starting from a low point already. When it happens to VW, especially given that it was no accident and it was specifically contrived to deceive, then its a major issue particularly given VWs perceived standing. VW put themselves in a position that was just waiting for them to be knocked down and by god they did it in style. They're both a victim of their own success and they've fallen foul of their own self righteousness. Where as GM just made cheap stuff VW actually went out of their way to deceive people and at one hell of a profit.

If the general perception is that it is more accepting for a particular make of car to suddenly burst into flames over another make who got caught cheating an emissions test, then there is something seriously wrong. I guess some people are more comfortable at potentially being roasted rather than being told their diesel car is not as green as they originally thought it was.

JohnBoy26

bazz26 wrote: »

If the general perception is that it is more accepting for a particular make of car to suddenly burst into flames over another make who got caught cheating an emissions test, then there is something seriously wrong. I guess some people are more comfortable at potentially being roasted rather than being told their diesel car is not as green as they originally thought it was.

The only thing seriously wrong is the comparison you are trying to make.

mickdw

bazz26 wrote: »

If the general perception is that it is more accepting for a particular make of car to suddenly burst into flames over another make who got caught cheating an emissions test, then there is something seriously wrong. I guess some people are more comfortable at potentially being roasted rather than being told their diesel car is not as green as they originally thought it was.

Obviously bursting into flames is one of the worst defects a car can have and as such is much more serious for any car owner that having an emissions issue.
That however is only one side of the tale. The fact that vw intentionally cheating their customers in the greedy pursuit of easy profit is what makes this a massive issue.
If for example a report surfaced that showed opel were aware that a component in the car would spontaneously combust after 1000 hours service and still decided to go with it due to cost , well they would rightly be considered criminals. That is obviously not the case and therefore people are prepared to give opel time to repair the issue.

vectra

mickdw wrote: »

Obviously bursting into flames is one of the worst defects a car can have and as such is much more serious for any car owner that having an emissions issue.
That however is only one side of the tale. The fact that vw intentionally cheating their customers in the greedy pursuit of easy profit is what makes this a massive issue.
If for example a report surfaced that showed opel were aware that a component in the car would spontaneously combust after 1000 hours service and still decided to go with it due to cost , well they would rightly be considered criminals. That is obviously not the case and therefore people are prepared to give opel time to repair the issue.

That.s the most ridiculous comparison I have ever read.

Bloody hell.
VW made easy profit???
How so?
You mean people would never have bought their VW's if they know they put out more nox than was suggested?

I can see the customers asking the most obvious questions.
1) Will that make it heavier on diesel?

2) Will the tax be dearer?

Sales persons answer to both.
No sir.

Customer : OK Thats grand so.

Opel sales person.
There is a slight issue wher these are liable to burst into flames and possibly kill your family..

Customer.

See ya.
I'm off to buy a VW, I'd prefer to see smoke coming out the exhaust than out of the cabin. :pac:

FortySeven

vectra wrote: »

That.s the most ridiculous comparison I have ever read.

Bloody hell.
VW made easy profit???
How so?
You mean people would never have bought their VW's if they know they put out more nox than was suggested?

I can see the customers asking the most obvious questions.
1) Will that make it heavier on diesel?

2) Will the tax be dearer?

Sales persons answer to both.
No sir.

Customer : OK Thats grand so.

Opel sales person.
There is a slight issue wher these are liable to burst into flames and possibly kill your family..

Customer.

See ya.
I'm off to buy a VW, I'd prefer to see smoke coming out the exhaust than out of the cabin. :pac:

Are you for real? It is a question of honesty. No matter what you say or think, this is the truth you are arguing with. Based only on your feelings and without evidence. VW will suffer more and are suffering more than Opel will. Opel have a fault, these things happen. VW knowingly lied and cheated their customers. You are trying to compare Apple's and oranges and the stupidity of the Irish consumer is not really relevant when Irish sales are at best marginal to the health of the company.

Long Time Lurker

vectra wrote: »

That.s the most ridiculous comparison I have ever read.

Bloody hell.
VW made easy profit???
How so?
You mean people would never have bought their VW's if they know they put out more nox than was suggested?

:

You obviously don't understand the general premise behind VWs initial deviousness. To achieve the level of emissions that they claimed the cars were capable of you'd have to fit extra emission controls i.e. uriea systems (adblue) This adds considerable cost to the vehicle thus reducing its competitive edge and profitability. Hence veedub claimed better emissions than were actually possible in the real world and they made more money. Turns out they were talking shiote

vectra

It will be grand lads.
Come back here in 12 months time and post on this thread again how it has affected VW sales etc.
I can assure you it will be stale news and normal service will have resumed,

FortySeven

vectra wrote: »

It will be grand lads.
Come back here in 12 months time and post on this thread again how it has affected VW sales etc.
I can assure you it will be stale news and normal service will have resumed,

And you base this on?

FortySeven

To put things in perspective, Ireland bought less than 100,000 new units last year. Germany alone bought over 3 million new units.

Irish opinions on this are just not relevant when you look at the numbers. Most of mainland Europe DO care when it comes to green technology. Look at Germany's power generation. Look at the rise of EV in the Nordic countries.

VW care about Hans, Woitek, Fritz and Francois. Paddy and Mick take a back seat on this one.

mickdw

vectra wrote: »

It will be grand lads.
Come back here in 12 months time and post on this thread again how it has affected VW sales etc.
I can assure you it will be stale news and normal service will have resumed,

I don't disagree. They will survive and sell strongly into the future but there will be a drop off in sales to some degree in the short term.
Rightly or wrongly, people here who have effected cars are sitting tight also to see how it plays out. The difference between eu and usa rules are not generally understood by the wider population and people who have the cars here are thinking that perhaps they might be in line for a sweetener or whatever.
I don't think anyone thinks vw are a bad brand because of this just sales may be effected by
people holding out for a sweet deal to trade effected car
people not dealing with a company who bull****ted them previously

Reports of salespeople jumping ship in the uk are the start of issues for vw imo.

vectra

FortySeven wrote: »

And you base this on?

General attitude of the public.
What are you basing your different views on?

vectra

FortySeven wrote: »

To put things in perspective, Ireland bought less than 100,000 new units last year. Germany alone bought over 3 million new units.

Irish opinions on this are just not relevant when you look at the numbers. Most of mainland Europe DO care when it comes to green technology. Look at Germany's power generation. Look at the rise of EV in the Nordic countries.

VW care about Hans, Woitek, Fritz and Francois. Paddy and Mick take a back seat on this one.

Population of Germany = 81 million.

81000.000 / 3000.000 = 270 per head

Population of Ireland = 4.6 million.

4.600.000/ 100,000 = 46 per head.

Doesnt seem to be a fair comparison

FortySeven

vectra wrote: »

General attitude of the public.
What are you basing your different views on?

Loss of potential revenue from the US, VW have been rubbing their hands together at the growth in Diesel there. Now dead.
Most manufacturers are moving away from Diesel.
Massive drop in the value of VW on the market.
General public view of dishonesty.
Potential lawsuits.
Huge fines.
Most people in Europe actually caring about the environment, not tax.
New regulations on diesel likely to be stringent now. Unlikely any manufacturer will manage to produce the car everyone wants under on road testing regs.
The fact that Irelands public attitude isn't worth anything in what is a global company.

FortySeven

vectra wrote: »

Population of Germany = 81 million.

81000.000 / 3000.000 = 270 per head

Population of Ireland = 4.6 million.

4.600.000/ 100,000 = 46 per head.

Doesnt seem to be a fair comparison

Do you think VW looks at percentages buying new cars when it comes to who to listen to?

They look at their biggest markets.

FortySeven

vectra wrote: »

Population of Germany = 81 million.

81000.000 / 3000.000 = 270 per head

Population of Ireland = 4.6 million.

4.600.000/ 100,000 = 46 per head.

Doesnt seem to be a fair comparison

Irelands complete yearly sales of new cars are the same as 2 weeks sales in Germany.

Marcusm

vectra wrote: »

Population of Germany = 81 million.

81000.000 / 3000.000 = 270 per head

Population of Ireland = 4.6 million.

4.600.000/ 100,000 = 46 per head.

Doesnt seem to be a fair comparison

I think you've got the maths wrong ! 81m divided by 3m is 27 not 270.

Brian Scan

vectra wrote: »

Population of Germany = 81 million.

81000.000 / 3000.000 = 270 per head

Population of Ireland = 4.6 million.

4.600.000/ 100,000 = 46 per head.

Doesnt seem to be a fair comparison

Shouldn't it be

Number per head = Number of cars/ Number of people

Marcusm

Brian Scan wrote: »

Shouldn't it be

Number per head = Number of cars/ Number of people

Indeed it should be but at 1 car sold for 27 people in Germany compared to 1 for every 46 in Ireland, it's clear that both in absolute and relative terms, Germany is a more significant market. I find it interesting as I've always understood Germans to hold cars for longer periods which might imply lower per head sales.

pippip

Cars per head means absolutely nothing really in terms of the influential strength of one market versus another.

noelf

FortySeven wrote: »

Are you for real? It is a question of honesty. No matter what you say or think, this is the truth yo









u are arguing with. Based only on your feelings and without evidence. VW will suffer more and are suffering more than Opel will. Opel have a fault, these things happen. VW knowingly lied and cheated their customers. You are trying to compare Apple's and oranges and the stupidity of the Irish consumer is not really relevant when Irish sales are at best marginal to the health of the company.

GM (opel parent company) recalled initally 800000 of its cars due to a faulty ignition switch in Feb 2014 which shut off the engine during driving as a result the airbags didn't deploy in the subsequent crash . GM has paid compensation for 124 deaths. The fault had been known about in the company for at least a decade prior to the recall being forced upon them. GM paid a fine of $900 million to the United States government .. sounds like they got off very lightly which might help VW with their fine ???
In total GM recalled in 2014 about 29 million vehicles just in North America ..

Did I hear right that the E.U is to introduce a proper real life emissions test ?

That will certainly be the end of diesel, though the Auto companies were lobbying to have Nox limits increased to Euro 5 limits ! Madness , all for the sake of not having to change to alternatives.

BoatMad

FortySeven wrote: »

Loss of potential revenue from the US, VW have been rubbing their hands together at the growth in Diesel there. Now dead.

While VAG saw a niche success in the US small diesel , VAG have far more market share in gasoline cars In NA. Total diesel penetration is tiny in the US ,less then .1 %

Most manufacturers are moving away from Diesel

.

Not from looking at their product lineup , they aren't.

Massive drop in the value of VW on the market

.

Hardly massive and likely to be temporary

General public view of dishonesty

.
To be forgotten in 6 months

Potential lawsuits

.
You can't eat " potential ".

Huge fines

.

Unlikely ,EPA have no history in actually imposing large files. They'll be happy if VAG fix the issues

Most people in Europe actually caring about the environment, not tax.

Most people in Europe care about the money in their pocket that's all. EU emissions laws are significantly less onerous then in the US.

New regulations on diesel likely to be stringent now. Unlikely any manufacturer will manage to produce the car everyone wants under on road testing regs.

New NEDC test in 2017 will have an " element " of on road driving added. , it's still a laboratory dynamometer based test. No test will be introduced in Europe that diesels can't pass, 400,000 people empolyed in car companies will ensure that

FortySeven

Marcusm wrote: »

Indeed it should be but at 1 car sold for 27 people in Germany compared to 1 for every 46 in Ireland, it's clear that both in absolute and relative terms, Germany is a more significant market. I find it interesting as I've always understood Germans to hold cars for longer periods which might imply lower per head sales.

The biggest market for new cars in europe with the best green credentials both grassroots and politically and a car maker lying about emissions is a bit of an issue for ze germans. Will be interesting to see what the response will be.

Oafley Jones

Oops. Must have slipped VW's mind to mention the 3.0 TDi engines were also fitted with a "defeat device".

http://uk.businessinsider.com/epa-volkswagen-may-have-cheated-emission-tests-with-another-engine-2015-11?r=US&IR=T