EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

Co2 isn't a pollutant so why not concentrate on the real issue, that being, real pollution ?

Lissavane

Deleted User wrote: »

Co2 isn't a pollutant so why not concentrate on the real issue, that being, real pollution ?

Agreed. But EU policy is to demonise CO2 and largely ignore NOx which is a real pollutant.

Long Time Lurker

Meanwhile .....

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/vw-says-800-000-cars-could-have-wrong-co2-figures-1.2415834?utm_content=sf-man

delly

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

Meanwhile .....

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/vw-says-800-000-cars-could-have-wrong-co2-figures-1.2415834?utm_content=sf-man

Now that is something Paddy will care about.

Lissavane

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

Bloody sure. This could actually meen a reevaluation of Co2 figures. That's higher tax. That's plummeting resale. That's sell you VW now stuff

IF there's a reassessment it will NOT result in a change for cars that are already registered.
At worst, it will involve a fine for VW. Ireland is a vassal State of Germany, so don't expect any punishment for buying a German car - Enda may even pay you to buy one!

_Tombstone_

I see a Top end Porsche has been found with the software but VW are disputing it, the new guy that took the CEO job came from the Porsche Division and was also head of product planning from 2007 to 2010, a period when many of the cars that caused the scandal were being developed.

He could soon be on his way out if this is confirmed with the Porsche.

New study shows 60 people have died prematurely in the US as a result of VWs actions, if the Cars are not recalled by 2016 that figure will rise to 140 and compound every year there after = 1 million tons of air pollution every year, roughly the same as the U.K.’s combined emissions for all power stations, vehicles, industry, and agriculture,

These top lads should be done for Manslaughter really.


The UK ain't gonna reclassify the affected Cars AFAIK, Why not? Every owner should be followed for unpaid Tax and then let them off to follow VW.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/03/business/some-porsche-models-found-to-have-emissions-cheating-software.html?_r=1
http://news.mit.edu/2015/volkswagen-emissions-cheat-cause-60-premature-deaths-1029
http://grist.org/business-technology/volkswagens-emissions-cheating-caused-an-appalling-amount-of-extra-pollution/

colm_mcm

New study shows 60 people have died prematurely in the US as a result of VWs actions,

Did they just take the population of the USA and multiply it by a very very small number to arrive at 60?

johnnyskeleton

cml387 wrote: »

However if Volkswagen wish to compensate me (say 10,000 euro, I'm not greedy) I will reluctantly go along with this.

Im in a different situation. My car has the newer engine not affected by the scandal. I guess I should only ask for €9,999 compo!

_Tombstone_

colm_mcm wrote: »

Did they just take the population of the USA and multiply it by a very very small number to arrive at 60?

To estimate the health effects of Volkswagen’s excess emissions, Barrett and his colleagues at MIT and Harvard based their calculations on measurements by researchers at West Virginia University, who found that the vehicles produced up to 40 times the emissions allowed by law. They then calculated the average amount that each vehicle would be driven over its lifetime, and combined these results with sales data between 2008 and 2015 to estimate of the total excess emissions during this period.

The group then calculated the resulting emissions under three scenarios: the current scenario, in which 482,000 vehicles have already emitted excess emissions into the atmosphere; a scenario in which Volkswagen recalls every affected vehicle by the end of 2016; and a future in which there is no recall, and every affected vehicle remains on the road, continuing to emit excess pollution over the course of its lifetime.

The group then estimated the health effects under each emissions scenario, using a method they developed to map emissions estimates to public exposure to fine particulate matter and ozone. Diesel vehicles emit nitrogen oxides, which react in the atmosphere to form fine particulate matter and ozone. Barrett’s approach essentially maps emissions estimates to population health risk, accounting for atmospheric transport and chemistry of the pollutants.
“We all have risk factors in our lives, and [excess emissions] is another small risk factor,” Barrett explains. “If you take into account the additional risk due to the excess Volkswagen emissions, then roughly 60 people have died or will die early, and on average, a decade or more early.”

Barrett says that, per kilometer driven, this number is about 20 percent of the number of deaths caused by road transport accidents.
“So it’s about the same order of magnitude, just from these excess emissions,” Barrett says. “If nothing’s done, these excess emissions will cause around another 140 deaths. However, two-thirds of the total deaths could be avoided if the recalls could be done quickly, in the course of the next year.”

Daniel Kammen, the editor-in-chief of Environmental Research Letters and a professor of energy at the University of California at Berkeley, says the group’s study provides a “rigorous evaluation of the scale of the impacts, which are potentially exceedingly serious.

“The analysis demonstrates the value of policy-inspired fundamental research where the air quality and health impacts of transgressions such as the VW issue can be calculated, and made available for public discussion,” says Kammen, who did not contribute to the research.

colm_mcm

The population of the USA is 320000000
More people die from suicide than homocide in New York
13 Americans die every year from vending machines falling on them
800,000 Americans each year die from heart attacks
3000 American teenagers die every year because they were texting while driving.

These are people who actually died as a result of something specific rather than a silly headline grabbing guesstimate.

BoatMad

i see no opportunity to change tax bands on cars already in the market. That would be madness for the Gov. it would also require every single diesel on the market to be re-evaluated, to ensure fairness of treatment.

all that would happen is new cars would be in different tax bands


ANyway , the ICCT reports in 2013, have already highlighted that Co2 and mileage claims were entirely misleading

Leonard Hofstadter

The petrol engine thing is to do with CO2 emissions, which is of no real consequence since we all know that modern cars are hilariously out of kilter with their stated CO2 figures in the real world. If anything, VW showing more realistic mpg figures would be the first time they've done something right in all of this! It won't make the blindest bit of difference to owners in the real world other than there actually being the possibility of owners being able to achieve the quoted fuel consumption figures - like what used to happen with all cars up to about 10 years ago.

Also, it only affects the 1.4 TFSI (so far), and there's feck all of those in Ireland because that engine was introduced around the time the tax system changed to CO2 so everyone went for diesel instead.

Speaking of diesel, now the VW Group's 3.0 V6 TDI is also implicated in the emissions scandal, the US EPA says that engine has a defeat device fitted as well: http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/vw-emissions-scandal-vw-admits-800000-cars-have-false-co2-and-mpg-certification. It just gets worse and worse for VW really.

mickdw

BoatMad wrote: »

i see no opportunity to change tax bands on cars already in the market. That would be madness for the Gov. it would also require every single diesel on the market to be re-evaluated, to ensure fairness of treatment.

all that would happen is new cars would be in different tax bands


ANyway , the ICCT reports in 2013, have already highlighted that Co2 and mileage claims were entirely misleading

Has your opinion changed any now that vw are admitting to issues with co2 test results?
Do you think vw now perhaps will have an issue in eu?

BoatMad

the US EPA says that engine has a defeat device fitted as well: http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/in...-certification. It just gets worse and worse for VW really.

nope they have alleged it, VW have denied it , given the EPA didn't find the defeat software originally , as it was VW that admitted it existed, I wouldn't hold much hope that the EPA is right,

Leonard Hofstadter

Just to add regarding the CO2 emissions. If they're wrong I don't see why owners should have to pay extra. But the Government should charge VW for the lost VRT and motor tax revenue plus additional fines. It's unfair on the manufacturers who didn't rig their emissions figures, and undoubtedly lost sales because of higher (but correct) CO2 figures makes the car more expensive to buy (because of it being in a higher VRT band) and more expensive to run (higher motor tax and higher depreciation because of said motor tax).

The average motorist couldn't give a monkeys about how 'clean' or not so clean a VW engine is once it saves them money and (perceived) running costs are a very significant factor in new car purchases for many motorists.

mickdw

Vw setting aside 1.4 billion pounds for latest fu ck.up
about €2000 per car.

vectra

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Im in a different situation. My car has the newer engine not affected by the scandal. !

NOT YET..!!

Same as myself though on the non affected car.
So.
Non affected
Registered with chape tax.
Newer ones possibly higher tax band.
Would that make ours more desirable come resale :P

Long Time Lurker

vectra wrote: »

NOT YET..!!

Same as myself though on the non affected car.
So.
Non affected
Registered with chape tax.
Newer ones possibly higher tax band.
Would that make ours more desirable come resale :P

Doubt it. You'll have counter claims from drivers of rival vehicles who's emissions are supposed to be higher but actually are possibly lower. Once there's factual evidence to support such a case do you honestly think a situation is going to be aloud to develop were drivers of a certain brand have an exemption. Not a chance. You'll be taxed and many, many, many solicitors will be pursuing VW on your and many groups behalf.

Its utter nonsense to think other wise and I don't think that penny has dropped with people yet. It doesn't matter what VW and the EU come up with. Legally everybody else will be treated punitively if they're being forced to pay higher taxes due to a fraud. Like think about it. The solicitors must be wetting themselves at what's about to explode

mickdw

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

Doubt it. You'll have counter claims from drivers of rival vehicles who's emissions are supposed to be higher but actually are possibly lower. Once there's factual evidence to support such a case do you honestly think a situation is going to be aloud to develop were drivers of a certain brand have an exemption. Not a chance. You'll be taxed and many, many, many solicitors will be pursuing VW on your and many groups behalf.

Its utter nonsense to think other wise and I don't think that penny has dropped with people yet. It doesn't matter what VW and the EU come up with. Legally everybody else will be treated punitively if they're being forced to pay higher taxes due to a fraud. Like think about it. The solicitors must be wetting themselves at what's about to explode

They won't alter existing co2 figures for cars already out there. It's simply too difficult.
Its not as simple as looking at the motortax bill.
For Example, where a private car is used for business by a self employed person, you can claim up to 3k euro per year depreciation against profits but car must be band A to C. Half that amount in bands D and E and nothing for lower band cars. Imagine all the people who will have underpaid their income taxes if co2 rate is declared incorrect. Even if the government write off underpayment previously and start charging based on a somehow adjusted co2 rate from 1 Jan 16 for existing cars on the road, you are still into a major sh1t storm. If I can no longer claim depreciation against business expenses because my car has suddenly jumped out of band c into band d, I am going to be seeking to return the car and I figure anyone would have a good case in doing so.

Long Time Lurker

mickdw wrote: »

They won't alter existing co2 figures for cars already out there. It's simply too difficult.
Its not as simple as looking at the motortax bill.
For Example, where a private car is used for business by a self employed person, you can claim up to 3k euro per year depreciation against profits but car must be band A to C. Half that amount in bands D and E and nothing for lower band cars. Imagine all the people who will have underpaid their income taxes if co2 rate is declared incorrect. Even if the government write off underpayment previously and start charging based on a somehow adjusted co2 rate from 1 Jan 16 for existing cars on the road, you are still into a major sh1t storm. If I can no longer claim depreciation against business expenses because my car has suddenly jumped out of band c into band d, I am going to be seeking to return the car and I figure anyone would have a good case in doing so.

I doubt myself that they'll act retrospectively but I'd be fairly sure that once a fraud has been exposed they simply cant continue to exempt people while others are being punitively treated. It simply won't happen going forward. They'll be left with no option but to tax people accordingly. Once it is factual that Co2 levels are different from originally stated then you'll simply have to be taxed on those real figures. How much of a difference that'll be is anyone's guess. It might be very little but it'll different.

Genuinely the only reason no legal people have moved yet is because they're awaiting everyones's (EU, VW, Local Governance and taxation agencies etc) response to this, then they'll act. And one things for sure if they smell the slightest hint of a buck they'll be on it. I'll guess that the numbers VW has set aside to rectify this will seem paltry compared to the actual real world cost at the end of all this.

Just an extra note to this - and I don't want to sound like I'm scare mongering - but people seem to be almost telling themselves it'll be grand, like nothings gonna happen. The end result sh*t fest from this is going to be monumental. This is not something that gets swept under the carpet. The outrage that's going to be expressed by people when all this comes to a head is going to be comical given the levels of denial by all parties involved thus far and ironically they'll seemed surprised.

Seth Brundle

mickdw wrote: »

They won't alter existing co2 figures for cars already out there. It's simply too difficult.

Then you have the scenario whereby one brand will be unfairly taxed (at the correct rate) whilst the cheating competitor will continue to enjoy a cheaper tax rate.
I acknowledge what you say in terms of the hassle and cost but nonetheless, if it is not fixed, then plenty of people will make a big fuss!

mickdw

kbannon wrote: »

Then you have the scenario whereby one brand will be unfairly taxed (at the correct rate) whilst the cheating competitor will continue to enjoy a cheaper tax rate.
I acknowledge what you say in terms of the hassle and cost but nonetheless, if it is not fixed, then plenty of people will make a big fuss!

VW will have to take the cars back then. That is the only solution..... If alteration to tax rates come about.

Seth Brundle

No - too much hassle and the green lobby would go mental over cars that are likely to be scrapped.
I'd say that VW will cough up the back taxes and cover the costs to fix the licence docs. This will be one big lump sum.
Then the owners will have to pay any future motor taxes at the new higher rates.

Edit:
also they cannot take them all back as some owners will want to keep them for whatever reason. Therefore these are kept on the system and therefore must pay motor tax.

Long Time Lurker

mickdw wrote: »

VW will have to take the cars back then. That is the only solution..... If alteration to tax rates come about.

You see it's all speculation now at the moment and I think that's what's luring people in to a false sense of security, because there's nothing happening at the moment. God only knows what way this is gonna end. One things for sure there's going to be an argument

josip

mickdw wrote: »

VW will have to take the cars back then. That is the only solution..... If alteration to tax rates come about.

But if the cars have to be returned and the sale voided, won't the government have to refund the taxation part of the sale price to the purchaser/garage?
While they'd get back a similar amount from the follow on replacement purchase, would the dept would be keen for all the additional hassle?

vectra

kbannon wrote: »

No - too much hassle and the green lobby would go mental over cars that are likely to be scrapped.
I'd say that VW will cough up the back taxes and cover the costs to fix the licence docs. This will be one big lump sum.
Then the owners will have to pay any future motor taxes at the new higher rates.

Edit:
also they cannot take them all back as some owners will want to keep them for whatever reason. Therefore these are kept on the system and therefore must pay motor tax.

Can't see that happening
Customer buys car specifically it is only 180 or so a year to tax. Now suddenly it is 390.
Customer need say they would not have bought it at that tax rate.
What happens then?
Car was fraudulently advertised and sold under false pretences.
Sale of good ad services act should cover that?
No?

mickdw

vectra wrote: »

Can't see that happening
Customer buys car specifically it is only 180 or so a year to tax. Now suddenly it is 390.
Customer need say they would not have bought it at that tax rate.
What happens then?
Car was fraudulently advertised and sold under false pretences.
Sale of good ad services act should cover that?
No?

Yes and by points re self employed claiming against the car can involve far more significant sums than the motortax and vw wouldn't have a leg to stand on if a customer was suddenly losing out on this claim due to a reclassification.
when I say they would have to take them back, I mean they would have to take them back if customer wished. They wouldn't need to be scrapped, they could be resold with correct co2 rate on them.

Seth Brundle

vectra wrote: »

Can't see that happening
Customer buys car specifically it is only 180 or so a year to tax. Now suddenly it is 390.
Customer need say they would not have bought it at that tax rate.
What happens then?
Car was fraudulently advertised and sold under false pretences.
Sale of good ad services act should cover that?
No?

I'm not sure what is covered under the Sale of Goods Act but if a car's CO2 figure was to change (for whatever reason), it is not fair on other tax payers to allow the owner to benefit no matter what the cause of the discrepancy is.

Similarly, were the CO2 figure to be reduced (for whatever reason), then the Motor Tax office should refund the difference. If it turned out that a simple mathematical error by VW meant that say a 2L Golf was actually a 1.2L - are the owners not entitled to demand overpaid taxes back?

Marcusm

vectra wrote: »

Can't see that happening
Customer buys car specifically it is only 180 or so a year to tax. Now suddenly it is 390.
Customer need say they would not have bought it at that tax rate.
What happens then?
Car was fraudulently advertised and sold under false pretences.
Sale of good ad services act should cover that?
No?

If it's as small a number as they have suggested - 800,000 across the globe - then I suspect they'd offer to buy them back at a fair pre crisis price, correct the paperwork and then resell them. Offer a cash alternative of less than that cost and that would be the end of it as far as consumers are concerned.

From a corporate perspective, they better hope they can put this down to a mistake or simple negligence rather than a plot. If it's the latter, there'll be a further management clear out.

BoatMad

I see zero chance that existing buyers will have the tax band changed , new cars will be affected of course. VW may have ti pay fines etc but that wont affect current owners. IN fact your car may be worth more as a result as it may be in a lower co2 band then its equivalent new one !