EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

cadaliac

The ridiculous scare mongering going on here is hilarious. From 60 people dieing in the states to vw buying back cars and reselling them.
All guesswork.
Do you honestly think vw are going to buy cars back from owners? Seriously?

Marcusm

BoatMad wrote: »

I see zero chance that existing buyers will have the tax band changed , new cars will be affected of course. VW may have ti pay fines etc but that wont affect current owners. IN fact your car may be worth more as a result as it may be in a lower co2 band then its equivalent new one !

I thibk that will depend on whether it was a mistake, negligence or fraud. If it's the last of these then the type approval cert will be voidable. VW might be able to generate enough political pressure to avoid an effective recall of all the cars but I suspect they are running out of political favours. A car without a type approval cert effectively can't be sold. It's not just motor tax, in the UK benefit in kind charges (stupidly) run off CO2 levels; for fleet buyers it will be a much bigger and more difficult issue to address than motor tax.

vectra

Marcusm wrote: »

If it's as small a number as they have suggested - 800,000 across the globe - then I suspect they'd offer to buy them back at a fair pre crisis price, correct the paperwork and then resell them. Offer a cash alternative of less than that cost and that would be the end of it as far as consumers are concerned.

From a corporate perspective, they better hope they can put this down to a mistake or simple negligence rather than a plot. If it's the latter, there'll be a further management clear out.

Thats all very fine.
I am not saying that I am overly concerned at this moment in time. But should ths co2 system change and my car is dragged into it, i don't see how VW could judge a value on my car as it had about 1k kms on it prior to this fiasco.
Now standing with 3k on it.

Your thoughts?

Drummerboy08

vectra wrote: »

Thats all very fine.
I am not saying that I am overly concerned at this moment in time. But should ths co2 system change and my car is dragged into it, i don't see how VW could judge a value on my car as it had about 1k kms on it prior to this fiasco.
Now standing with 3k on it.

Your thoughts?

The difference in value of your car with 1k km and 3k km is zero.

vectra

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

The difference in value of your car with 1k km and 3k km is zero.

Soyy,
I mean't 3k and new value?
my car was only a couple of weeks old with 1k on it when this came to light.
I would be thinking on the lines of a full refund.

Marcusm

vectra wrote: »

Soyy,
I mean't 3k and new value?
my car was only a couple of weeks old with 1k on it when this came to light.
I would be thinking on the lines of a full refund.

That's what you would then choose to do; effectively reject the goods as not fit for purpose or because their contract was not substantially performed. Given how long you waited for your precise spec, I imagine that a smallish sum if a few thou would probably get you to keep it and that's what I meant about the alternative.

There will be political pressure for them to correct matters but not to bankrupt them. That being said, if the few gm of CO2 was deliberately hidden then I suspect the supposed costs to consumers will be difficult to assess. Offering a take back or cash alternative might be the only way to proceed.

vectra

More

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a27197/bob-lutz-vw-diesel-fiasco/

This bit sort of put a nail in the coffin.

The whole Clean Diesel campaign, as the foundation of the VW brand, cannot be resurrected. It's history.

SBPhoto

Breaking news Now it seems that some petrol are also affected
A limited number of gasoline-powered cars are affected, said Eric Felber, a company spokesman, expanding the focus of Volkswagen’s crisis beyond its diesel engines.

JohnBoy26

SBPhoto wrote: »

Breaking news Now it seems that some petrol are also affected
A limited number of gasoline-powered cars are affected, said Eric Felber, a company spokesman, expanding the focus of Volkswagen’s crisis beyond its diesel engines.

For Co2 emmisions.

Oafley Jones

vectra wrote: »

More

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a27197/bob-lutz-vw-diesel-fiasco/

This bit sort of put a nail in the coffin.

Interesting piece. Doesn't take away from the fact that the whole VAG board had a rotten reputation and didn't come close to corporate best practises. The appointment of an insider to the top job tells me they're still not really serious about transparency and change. They need a massive kick in the arse and complete reform with people from outside the culture. Just take a look at how scandal ridden Bosch took all the right steps.

Toyotafanboi

The thread that just keeps giving

colm_mcm

Funny you should mention Bosch. Seems their 750w vacuum cleaners actually use 1500w when the bag isn't empty (according to a rival of course) to get around EU regulations and make better energy ratings. The vacs would be tested empty I'd imagine.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/11944135/James-Dyson-accuses-Bosch-of-cheating-like-Volkswagen.html

Toyotafanboi

Hread of the year even, perhaps

Drummerboy08

vectra wrote: »

Soyy,
I mean't 3k and new value?
my car was only a couple of weeks old with 1k on it when this came to light.
I would be thinking on the lines of a full refund.

I would think 2-3k less than whatever the car can be bought for new, including discount.

So I'd imagine somewhere between €4-5k off the retail price of your car when it was new.

Oafley Jones

colm_mcm wrote: »

Funny you should mention Bosch. Seems their 750w vacuum cleaners actually use 1500w when the bag isn't empty (according to a rival of course) to get around EU regulations and make better energy ratings. The vacs would be tested empty I'd imagine.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/11944135/James-Dyson-accuses-Bosch-of-cheating-like-Volkswagen.html

They've still got decent corporate governance though. VAG is like the banks were over here, or the way McDonalds is currently. They're not the only ones at it; Samsung are completely full of **** as regards the energy efficiency of nearly everything they produce.

Long Time Lurker

Story of two continents really. Ze Germans with their European dominance will do everything devious and contemptible to manipulate any EU finding so that VW come out on the bright side of all this. That despite them showing utter contempt for European regulation and proving themselves to be a company controlled ostensibly by utter rogues at board room level.

The Americans though are about to have an orgy of biblical proportions in German erogenous zones such will be the size and and number of members Uncle Sam's legal fraternity will look to insert in them never mind the fact that the US regulators and car industry will be lurking like some sort of voyeuristic excitbale middle aged man in a leather jacket peering through a dense wooded area at a young couple in the back seat of a car.

One way or another VW has pretty much nailed on the award for company you don't want to be associated with for the next few years.

colm_mcm

I don't care for VW too much, but it has to be said that in many ways they meaningfully innovate far more than any other car company, they offer a whole hidden realm of nerdy customisability in terms of electronics, and as a result of platform sharing, as well as when you actually order the car new. They seem to encourage the design of so many little details nearly all other car manufacturers have adopted over time. The car world would be a lot different without VW.

Long Time Lurker

colm_mcm wrote: »

I don't care for VW too much, but it has to be said that in many ways they meaningfully innovate far more than any other car company, they offer a whole hidden realm of nerdy customisability in terms of electronics, and as a result of platform sharing, as well as when you actually order the car new. They seem to encourage the design of so many little details nearly all other car manufacturers have adopted over time. The car world would be a lot different without VW.

The motor world would be very different without every brand that exists today to be fair. I can't think of anything they've ever conceived themselves though that changed motoring forever. Platform sharing was the Brits. Saturation marketing! That would be the yanks. Diesel! Well apart from the fact that we won't go there today I think its fair to say the French pipped them there too. If you mention the Beetle you're getting a ban :-)

BoatMad

vectra wrote: »

Soyy,
I mean't 3k and new value?
my car was only a couple of weeks old with 1k on it when this came to light.
I would be thinking on the lines of a full refund.

Why do you want a refund. Is the car not performing as you generally expected it to. Is the something materially wrong with it ?

BoatMad

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

Story of two continents really. Ze Germans with their European dominance will do everything devious and contemptible to manipulate any EU finding so that VW come out on the bright side of all this. That despite them showing utter contempt for European regulation and proving themselves to be a company controlled ostensibly by utter rogues at board room level.

The Americans though are about to have an orgy of biblical proportions in German erogenous zones such will be the size and and number of members Uncle Sam's legal fraternity will look to insert in them never mind the fact that the US regulators and car industry will be lurking like some sort of voyeuristic excitbale middle aged man in a leather jacket peering through a dense wooded area at a young couple in the back seat of a car.

One way or another VW has pretty much nailed on the award for company you don't want to be associated with for the next few years.

VW will fix the US diesels , most likely woth little effect on performance by adding a high dosage SCR retrofit system ( there isn't much else they can do ) that will not affect performance , but I suspect VW will have to supply free diesel exhaust fluid to the affected cars.

That will remove most of the lawyers case and make litigation difficult.

The EPA has no history of applying max fines.

VW will exit the US diesel market , But that is a pimple on VWs revenues.

In Europe the recall will remove this "software " and little else will happen , VW is too big to fail.

In 12 months this will be a memory

JohnBoy26

colm_mcm wrote: »

I don't care for VW too much, but it has to be said that in many ways they meaningfully innovate far more than any other car company, they offer a whole hidden realm of nerdy customisability in terms of electronics, and as a result of platform sharing, as well as when you actually order the car new. They seem to encourage the design of so many little details nearly all other car manufacturers have adopted over time. The car world would be a lot different without VW.

Do they though?. I mean fair enough in regards to the platform sharing and whatever little details but in terms of innovation I wouldn't say they are really ahead of the rest. They still haven't really gone beyond diesel and petrol.

Toyota for example have the the Prius and now the mirai.

colm_mcm

I'm not saying VW invented everything ever. And EVs/Fuel cell/hybrids are all very big achievements.
I suppose I'm talking about smaller things than that.

Seth Brundle

Moody's have cut VW's credit rating from "A2" to "A3" with a negative outlook.

http://www.ft.com/fastft/419661/moodys-cuts-vw-credit-rating-amid-mounting-risks

BoatMad

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Yet more muddying of the waters and distraction, but I'll take a nibble at the bait shur...

I can confidently predict that when audi release a miller cycle engine the vagboys will turn cartwheels with sheer admiration and wibbly wobbly excitement at their innovation.... 20 years after mazda had one in a production car...

Backed PD. Couldn't cut it. Came late to the CR party. Couldn't cut it... well they probably could have but cheating was easier. Timing chains lasting less time than a fiat belt. Oil pump drives that can't even....

So... soft touch dashes and thunky doors. I'm blown away by their engineering prowess.

Sure sure all car companies have certain issues in production cars, Nissan timing chain crap,, Nissan Navara Half shaft crap, clutch crap and big end bottom bearings crap . Etc etc etc


But the clear fact is the skyline copied the Quattro not the other way around.

Clearly VW cheated in the US. They havent been proven to cheat in Europe , why should they , the NEDC is a doddle to pass

JohnBoy26

http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswagen-recalls-91-867-cars-for-camshaft-problem-1446641196

DieselGate Spreads To Other Manufacturers .

No cheat devices detected but highlights what we already know, the NEDC test is a joke and lets the motor industry away with murder !

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/09/mercedes-honda-mazda-mitsubishi-diesel-emissions-row?CMP=share_btn_fb

Joe 90

BoatMad wrote: »

I worked with VW, during the golf development. It's a very research orientated company ,especially its Audi division. It's responsible for many innovative developments in car and engine technology. As a group , it has incredible engineering experience.

It's now moving heavily into EVs. Expect remarkable things here.

Ps the japs havnt a clue in comparison

In my primary school days, 50s and early 60s our teacher seemded to hold the view that the Germans were great innovative engineers and the Japs great copiers. While it was meant as a bit of an insult to Jap products now the fact is that today they implement things brilliantly.

They take other peoples fundamental ideas ant turn them into generally excellently produced products.

reklamos

Germany is to retest all Volkswagen car models.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/04/us-volkswagen-emissions-idUSKCN0ST1VY20151104

rwbug

"We all have an interest that everything at VW is turned over and reviewed," Dobrindt said, adding that the government wanted to force the company to pay the extra car taxes which would be incurred by the higher CO2 emissions levels."

oh-oh

jimgoose

It would appear that excrement just became non-artificial.