EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

Long Time Lurker

rwbug wrote: »

"We all have an interest that everything at VW is turned over and reviewed," Dobrindt said, adding that the government wanted to force the company to pay the extra car taxes which would be incurred by the higher CO2 emissions levels."

oh-oh

Nah sure they wont do that. Sure it's gonna be grand. All gonna blow over in no time. Cant see what the fuss is about

The level of denial and delusion around this issue by owners and fans of the brand is monumental. I think the funniest prediction is the 'a year from now it'll be all forgotten' one. That's very funny.

cadaliac

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

Nah sure they wont do that. Sure it's gonna be grand. All gonna blow over in no time. Cant see what the fuss is about

The level of denial and delusion around this issue by owners and fans of the brand is monumental. I think the funniest prediction is the 'a year from now it'll be all forgotten' one. That's very funny.

Tell me this much. Why aren't other Car maker brands jumping up and down screaming about the cheating Germans?
Any idea's?

I'll tell you why. They are all as guilty as VAG.

When the governments figure out just how ingrained this "cheating" is in the industry as a whole, including other sectors including trucks and buses, they will realize that it's actually too big to tackle correctly and just implement some new laws and start over.
Hino Trucks pulled out of Europe because they couldn't keep up with the Euro 6 emissions - I'm not 100% on the details but other Truck makers from the same part of the world have no issues with this. I wonder why?
Weren't Scania accused of something simmilar a few years back?

The sheer size of a project which involves re-testing every TYPE of vehicle for emissions or moreover, cheating emissions is just huge. Just think about the cost of such a project. From country to country.

Now think of the cost of rectifying such a problem. (If they find out what I suspect is true).
In reality, VW will get hit by huge fines, do some recalls et al but I can't see what else will really happen.
To all other manufactures that are caught, if caught, some more fines.
I can tell you what won't happen though.
VW or any other manufacturer will not buy back your car.
That really is laughable.

Falcon L

cadaliac wrote: »

Tell me this much. Why aren't other Car maker brands jumping up and down screaming about the cheating Germans?
Any idea's?

I'll tell you why. They are all as guilty as VAG.

When the governments figure out just how ingrained this "cheating" is in the industry as a whole, including other sectors including trucks and buses, they will realize that it's actually too big to tackle correctly and just implement some new laws and start over.
Hino Trucks pulled out of Europe because they couldn't keep up with the Euro 6 emissions - I'm not 100% on the details but other Truck makers from the same part of the world have no issues with this. I wonder why?
Weren't Scania accused of something simmilar a few years back?

The sheer size of a project which involves re-testing every TYPE of vehicle for emissions or moreover, cheating emissions is just huge. Just think about the cost of such a project. From country to country.

Now think of the cost of rectifying such a problem. (If they find out what I suspect is true).
In reality, VW will get hit by huge fines, do some recalls et al but I can't see what else will really happen.
To all other manufactures that are caught, if caught, some more fines.
I can tell you what won't happen though.
VW or any other manufacturer will not buy back your car.
That really is laughable.

Is it? Lancia did it with their Beta model in the 70s. The issue then was rust and the cars were bought up covertly and scrapped. This was an attempt to salvage the Italian marque's reputation at the time.

Of course other manufacturers are up the same tricks as VW. Not all but certainly some.

mickdw

cadaliac wrote: »

I can tell you what won't happen though.
VW or any other manufacturer will not buy back your car.
That really is laughable.

Laughable for now but the sh1t is beginning to hit the fan.
Yes there is no way that they will buy back if governments don't attempt to adjust co2 tax band for existing cars.
If however a case arose where currently registered cars were to have their tax band altered, vw would have no option but to compensate. A car changing tax band is a major issue and as I explained previously could have very significant knock on costs to some drivers who claim private car costs against business expenses and as such vw would have to take the car back on some form of preferential deal anyway.
They would be fine to resell once altered and the new buyer was aware of what they were getting.

chief orman

cadaliac wrote: »

Tell me this much. Why aren't other Car maker brands jumping up and down screaming about the cheating Germans?
Any idea's?

I'll tell you why. They are all as guilty as VAG.

When the governments figure out just how ingrained this "cheating" is in the industry as a whole, including other sectors including trucks and buses, they will realize that it's actually too big to tackle correctly and just implement some new laws and start over.
Hino Trucks pulled out of Europe because they couldn't keep up with the Euro 6 emissions - I'm not 100% on the details but other Truck makers from the same part of the world have no issues with this. I wonder why?
Weren't Scania accused of something simmilar a few years back?

The sheer size of a project which involves re-testing every TYPE of vehicle for emissions or moreover, cheating emissions is just huge. Just think about the cost of such a project. From country to country.

Now think of the cost of rectifying such a problem. (If they find out what I suspect is true).
In reality, VW will get hit by huge fines, do some recalls et al but I can't see what else will really happen.
To all other manufactures that are caught, if caught, some more fines.
I can tell you what won't happen though.
VW or any other manufacturer will not buy back your car.
That really is laughable.

I think you may be right.

gctest50

Falcon L wrote: »

Is it? Lancia did it with their Beta model in the 70s. The issue then was rust and the cars were bought up covertly and scrapped. This was an attempt to salvage the Italian marque's reputation at the time.

Of course other manufacturers are up the same tricks as VW. Not all but certainly some.

nice bit of footage of that for any doubt-that-could-happen-people

Toyotafanboi

ah that's hardly the same, even the report, although carefully worded to sound like they were simply buying back old models, actually said they were merely offering very good trade in allowances against new Lancias, but they weren't buying back the old models for cash and letting the customer walk.

and even at that, the figure quoted was 500 cars already with 400 to go, not a baseline figure of 1,000,000 like we are talking about here.

vectra

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

Nah sure they wont do that. Sure it's gonna be grand. All gonna blow over in no time. Cant see what the fuss is about

The level of denial and delusion around this issue by owners and fans of the brand is monumental. I think the funniest prediction is the 'a year from now it'll be all forgotten' one. That's very funny.

And the funniest part of it was that was mentioned during the mox gate discussioon.
Horse of a different colour when it comes to Co2. :pac:

RandomAccess

I saw an article saying there is a 'stop sale' on 3.0l Audi's in the US.
Is it possible that something similar might now happen here since the CO2 figures of some models might be invalid.
Those figures are I assume taken seriously by the revenue vehicle registration office..

??

Falcon L

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

ah that's hardly the same, even the report, although carefully worded to sound like they were simply buying back old models, actually said they were merely offering very good trade in allowances against new Lancias, but they weren't buying back the old models for cash and letting the customer walk.

and even at that, the figure quoted was 500 cars already with 400 to go, not a baseline figure of 1,000,000 like we are talking about here.

As ever, the bit on de telly is only part of the story. Many thousands of the cars were bought by Lancia "representatives" when they came on the market. Including my lovely grass green example. This all before the scandal broke in the meeja.

BoatMad

I think its all very amusing to burn VW at the stake and most of the media is reporting this story badly and incorrectly


Whats happening is that VW is under an incredible spotlight and the whole issue that ICCT exposed, ie on road CO2, on road NOX and fuel economy is being exposed.

As a poster said , why is the industry quiet , because everyone is at it.


At the heart of this is the huge mess that is the NEDC testing cycle, a lab based test , carried out under the manufactures supervison , that was never designed for emissions or fuel efficiency testing.

IN that respect the system is widely open to gaming, in fact it invites it. of course the whole indistry, regulators and gov know its being gamed.

Now that VW , in effect , bu their own admissions, are blowing the lid of all of this, everyine is jumoing into their righteous boxez, and sermonising from the pulpit.

and it will all blow over in a year

gk5000

BoatMad wrote: »

I think its all very amusing to burn VW at the stake and most of the media is reporting this story badly and incorrectly


Whats happening is that VW is under an incredible spotlight and the whole issue that ICCT exposed, ie on road CO2, on road NOX and fuel economy is being exposed.

As a poster said , why is the industry quiet , because everyone is at it.


At the heart of this is the huge mess that is the NEDC testing cycle, a lab based test , carried out under the manufactures supervison , that was never designed for emissions or fuel efficiency testing.

IN that respect the system is widely open to gaming, in fact it invites it. of course the whole indistry, regulators and gov know its being gamed.

Now that VW , in effect , bu their own admissions, are blowing the lid of all of this, everyine is jumoing into their righteous boxez, and sermonising from the pulpit.

and it will all blow over in a year

German manufacturing credibility worldwide requires Germany itself to take a hardline stance on this.

Long Time Lurker

Right. I'm off to dump a bottle of dipetane into my fuel tank for tomorrow's NCT.

(Shruga shoulders / what ya gotta do to defeat The system)

cadaliac

gk5000 wrote: »

German manufacturing credibility worldwide requires Germany itself to take a hardline stance on this.

Good point - the real cost will be to the German car industry, depending on how VW / VAG treat this.
I will wait and see what else transpires over the coming months and see how long the french and other european car makers who are in direct competition with VW will keep stump.

reklamos

cadaliac wrote: »

I will wait and see what else transpires over the coming months and see how long the french and other european car makers who are in direct competition with VW will keep stump.

According to this:
"..PSA Peugeot Citroën said it would test its cars for emissions and fuel efficiency under real-world driving conditions and publish the results.."

http://www.finanzaonline.com/forum/attachments/mercato-italiano/2167421d1445932707-fiat-chrysler-automobiles-news-market-21-oct-2015-auto2.pdf

josip

Was in getting the E288 serviced this morning in the Skoda garage.
The sales guy said that their orders for 2016 don't seem to be affected compared to this year (grain of salt if you wish).
He said that 60% of their 2016 orders are for petrol variants compared to only 20% 12 months ago.
So if he's to be believed, it would seem that diesel is more tarnished than VAG (at least the Skoda part).

Special Circumstances

josip wrote: »

Was in getting the E288 serviced this morning in the Skoda garage.
The sales guy said that their orders for 2016 don't seem to be affected compared to this year (grain of salt if you wish).
He said that 60% of their 2016 orders are for petrol variants compared to only 20% 12 months ago.
So if he's to be believed, it would seem that diesel is more tarnished than VAG (at least the Skoda part).

I find that very hard to believe - the majority would rather have their finger and toe nails removed with a pliers than give up the DERV.

I find it interesting that he would spin this picture rather than just the "it'll all blow over, tis only shmoke like" spoof.

Stallingrad

josip wrote: »

The sales guy said that their orders for 2016 don't seem to be affected compared to this year (grain of salt if you wish).
.

VW sales are down 10% in the UK, that is a huge drop. I have no doubt that sales here will/are suffering, maybe not to that extent though.

mahoganygas

VW are bruised but they are not in any real danger.

CDS prices are a decent indicator of the likelihood of a company defaulting on it's debt.
VW debt insurance is incredibly low (about 70 basis points).


To put it into perspective Ireland is twice as likely to default on our debt (135 basis points).

BoatMad

Ireland and Portugal are way out there , Ireland is the highest penetration of diesels in Europe by far

Special Circumstances

Shtateside now. Being bombarded with ads for petrol VWs. No mention of Das Clean Diesel at all at all...

pippip

In a letter seen by The Wall Street Journal, Volkswagen Chief Executive Matthias Müller asked EU finance minister to ensure that their national tax authorities “charge Volkswagen directly, and not our customers, for any additional taxes.”

Sure whats another few million out of their pocket at this stage.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswagen-to-cover-additional-taxes-on-owners-of-some-of-its-cars-1446848159

Long Time Lurker

pippip wrote: »

In a letter seen by The Wall Street Journal, Volkswagen Chief Executive Matthias Müller asked EU finance minister to ensure that their national tax authorities “charge Volkswagen directly, and not our customers, for any additional taxes.”

Sure whats another few million out of their pocket at this stage.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswagen-to-cover-additional-taxes-on-owners-of-some-of-its-cars-1446848159

Which is essentially a canny move by ze Germans as Merkel and her crew will see to it via subvention, cronyism or what ever back handed way they manage, that a large stump of that bill will never get paid.

But that leaves the question: If I'm driving a 2010 VW Golf at €200 per annum motor tax and you're driving a 2010 Ford Focus at €280 per annum motor tax, who's gonna foot the bill for the focus drivers punitive taxation especially given that VW have effectively admitted guilt and should the EU accept this payment they'll be enshrining this on paper.

denisander

rly clever engineerings

mickdw

When people suggested on this thread that cheat software as installed in EU cars might be targeted more towards co2 than anything else, they were scoffed at. When mentioning car tax issues, they were looked upon as idiots who didnt understand that nox was the issue and had no bearing on tax. We have now got to the stage where vw have admitted co2 and car tax rates are affected on 'some' cars - perhaps different cars to the nox cheat but do we know the full story yet?
Its interesting times when you have vw asking EU to bill them instead of car owners for tax discrepancies - they are clearly in trouble at this stage. If bills go to owners, due to cars moving bands, they would be into buy back situation. They know that and so they are doing everything to avoid it. The idea of buy back is scoffed at also but they are damn close to it. Political will will likely steer them clear though.

Seth Brundle

There are very strict rules within the EU in terms of a state funding a private company.
Merkel may want to help them: doesn't mean that she can.

Long Time Lurker

kbannon wrote: »

There are very strict rules within the EU in terms of a state funding a private company.
Merkel may want to help them: doesn't mean that she can.

Yeah but none of that ever matters when it came to the big guns especially Germany. Just see German reunification funding, German deficits, Irish bank bail out of german banks but to mention a few.

Damien360

kbannon wrote: »

There are very strict rules within the EU in terms of a state funding a private company.
Merkel may want to help them: doesn't mean that she can.

The German industrial IKB bank got a bailout from merkel some years ago when everyone else was told no. This was done to safeguard industry as that was their prime customer base.

The VW bank will get the same to safeguard jobs in manufacturing. The Germans don't play by the rules.

Merkel has made herself de facto leader of Europe and will do as she pleases. It will be sold to the politicians as safeguarding the German industrial machine and failing to do so would hurt Europe as funding could falter.

vectra

It is being reported that Volkwagen may be ready to launch a ‘TDI Good Will’ program

http://irelandstechnologyblog.com/home/volkswagen-to-offer-cash-to-affected-diesel-owners/

Long Time Lurker

vectra wrote: »

It is being reported that Volkwagen may be ready to launch a ‘TDI Good Will’ program

http://irelandstechnologyblog.com/home/volkswagen-to-offer-cash-to-affected-diesel-owners/

Yeah, that's gonna cut it in the states. People will be suing them for 55 trillion dollars each and VW think this will fix all. Every American ambulance chasser must be waking up every morning with a monumental horn :-)