EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

BoatMad

Looks like VW are preparing for the worst. I'm starting to see them as a much more fragile company than when this all started

Actually it's a measure of their economic strength that they have 30bn in net liquidity on top of the reported request for additional liness of credit.

ofcork

Panorama on BBC1 tonight at 8.30 about this.

afatbollix

Got my letter last week to say mine is one of the affected cars.

My lease deal is now looking even better now as my lease company will take the hit of the drop in value.

Special Circumstances

Tick Tock Tick Tock...
10am in California, when will VW/AUDI file their solution with the EPA?? 2mins before the deadline?

mickdw

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Tick Tock Tick Tock...
10am in California, when will VW/AUDI file their solution with the EPA?? 2mins before the deadline?

I assume vw have presented some ideas at this stage.
I wonder when we will hear what the plans are?

Special Circumstances

mickdw wrote: »

I assume vw have presented some ideas at this stage.
I wonder when we will hear what the plans are?

I wonder.

Why no fanfare of good "we're gonna make this right" publicity I wonder?

Not confident in their best solution?
Deliberately low balling with a half arsed solution and seeing if they will get away with it?

Long Time Lurker

Ah wouldn't worry bout it. Sure it'll be all swept under the carpet.


>>>>>>. heads off to do Christmas shopping

Manic Moran

Well, i got my second communication from VW, offering me a goodwill package. It was to the tune of the $500 prepaid Visa card, and additional $500 card good at any VW dealer, and three years' roadside service.

Long Time Lurker

Manic Moran wrote: »

Well, i got my second communication from VW, offering me a goodwill package. It was to the tune of the $500 prepaid Visa card, and additional $500 card good at any VW dealer, and three years' roadside service.

Yeah but what's the fix?

BoatMad

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

Yeah but what's the fix?

VW have submitted plans for approval , but these have not yet been disclosed , probably because EPA/CARB have not yet approved them

see

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-11-21/volkswagen-submits-diesel-recall-plan-to-california-regulators

its mentions the $1000 freebie too

pippip

Here's a snip from the Panoroma tonight, BBC1 8:30pm

And we confirmed the Passat was programmed with the defeat device.

After prepping the car to the letter of the regulations, the lab ran the standard Euro 5 emissions test. It's the same exam this model of car would have had to have passed before it went on sale.
And it passed. Emitting just 167 mg/km of poisonous NOx gases. The Euro 5 limit is 180 mg/km.

VW's clever software knows when it's being tested, because the routine is the same every single time. Starting with a cold engine, in a lab that's between 20 and 30 degrees centigrade, it's then driven for six miles on a rolling road, no turns, with exactly the same gear changes at exactly the same times, and all within a speed at two km/h either side of set limits.
The whole thing, including some idle time, always lasts 20 minutes and 20 seconds.
So, we then tried to trick the computer into thinking it was out of the lab, by simply accelerating hard a few times, taking it above motorway speeds. Straight afterwards, we ran the Euro 5 test again, but with one simple difference. We started with a hot engine this time.
The same car failed, spectacularly. Emitting 435 mg/km of NOx (remember the EU limit is 180 mg/km).

So, drive the same drive, but fool the car into thinking it's on a real road, and it chucks out two-and-a-half times the amount of pollution as before.


From http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34857404

BoatMad

pippip wrote: »

Here's a snip from the Panoroma tonight, BBC1 8:30pm

And we confirmed the Passat was programmed with the defeat device.

After prepping the car to the letter of the regulations, the lab ran the standard Euro 5 emissions test. It's the same exam this model of car would have had to have passed before it went on sale.
And it passed. Emitting just 167 mg/km of poisonous NOx gases. The Euro 5 limit is 180 mg/km.

VW's clever software knows when it's being tested, because the routine is the same every single time. Starting with a cold engine, in a lab that's between 20 and 30 degrees centigrade, it's then driven for six miles on a rolling road, no turns, with exactly the same gear changes at exactly the same times, and all within a speed at two km/h either side of set limits.
The whole thing, including some idle time, always lasts 20 minutes and 20 seconds.
So, we then tried to trick the computer into thinking it was out of the lab, by simply accelerating hard a few times, taking it above motorway speeds. Straight afterwards, we ran the Euro 5 test again, but with one simple difference. We started with a hot engine this time.
The same car failed, spectacularly. Emitting 435 mg/km of NOx (remember the EU limit is 180 mg/km).

So, drive the same drive, but fool the car into thinking it's on a real road, and it chucks out two-and-a-half times the amount of pollution as before.


From http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34857404

I doubt the defeat software was programmed to detect all the different tests in the world !

Furthermore, in the EU specifically , its not clear if so called defeat software , or software that detects specific conditions , is actually illegal at all .


remember, all the car has to do is pass the NEDC cycle within the stated limits, what the car actually does on the road or in any other " test : is irrelevant and uncontrolled . Your car in actuality can emit whatever it likes on the road .

Stallingrad

BoatMad wrote: »

Iremember, all the car has to do is pass the NEDC cycle within the stated limits, what the car actually does on the road or in any other " test : is irrelevant and uncontrolled . Your car in actuality can emit whatever it likes on the road .

You sound like a VW lawyer. Good like with that line of defense!

BoatMad

Stallingrad wrote: »

You sound like a VW lawyer. Good like with that line of defense!

merely pointing out the facts, the method of emissions testing in the EU is a joke , on a par with the USAs joke methods too,

Ron Burgundy II

BBC did a test on a VW Passat Euro 5 engine and a Ford Focus Euro 6 engine. This test was conducted out on the road.

"In the tests conducted for the BBC, the VW emitted 0.664g of NOx per km, which is a touch under four times the regulated limit of 0.18g under the Euro 5 rules.
It managed 41.7 miles per gallon in urban testing, which is close to its published urban fuel efficiency of 44.8 mpg.
The Ford emitted 0.422g of NOx per km, which is more than five times the regulated limit of 0.08g under the Euro 6 rules.
It managed 47 miles per gallon in urban testing - well below its published urban fuel efficiency of 65.7 mpg."

BoatMad

This test was conducted out on the road

which makes it meaningless, since on road emissions are not controlled

Gazzmonkey

Ron Burgundy II wrote: »

BBC did a test on a VW Passat Euro 5 engine and a Ford Focus Euro 6 engine. This test was conducted out on the road.

"In the tests conducted for the BBC, the VW emitted 0.664g of NOx per km, which is a touch under four times the regulated limit of 0.18g under the Euro 5 rules.
It managed 41.7 miles per gallon in urban testing, which is close to its published urban fuel efficiency of 44.8 mpg.
The Ford emitted 0.422g of NOx per km, which is more than five times the regulated limit of 0.08g under the Euro 6 rules.
It managed 47 miles per gallon in urban testing - well below its published urban fuel efficiency of 65.7 mpg."

Nope, not true

You cant say that about a none VAG car

All VAG cars are beyond sh1te and no amount of real evidence or facts will change my view.

Also, if its diesel it's sh1te too

pippip

Gazzmonkey wrote: »

Nope, not true

You cant say that about a none VAG car

All VAG cars are beyond sh1te and no amount of real evidence or facts will change my view.

Also, if its diesel it's sh1te too

LOL :pac:

Don't even know where to start with a statement like that.

Gazzmonkey

pippip wrote: »

LOL :pac:

Don't even know where to start with a statement like that.

I'm only taking the p1ss before things get out of hand here

pippip

Gazzmonkey wrote: »

I'm only taking the p1ss before things get out of hand here

Thank f*&k for that!!!!! :pac:...................its been a long day, I probably should have copped that.

two wheels good

pippip wrote: »

Here's a snip from the Panoroma tonight, BBC1 8:30pm

........

From http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34857404

Another interesting snippet:

"Panorama took a VW Passat Blue Motion diesel to an accredited testing laboratory in the Czech Republic. No British lab we asked would let us in, but this lab is governed by the same rules and regulations as those in the UK and it regularly certifies new cars and engines for the European market."

I wonder why UK labs weren't available. Maybe they're alll working flat out testing new diesel engines.

robtri

BoatMad wrote: »

remember, all the car has to do is pass the NEDC cycle within the stated limits, what the car actually does on the road or in any other " test : is irrelevant and uncontrolled . Your car in actuality can emit whatever it likes on the road .

i would disagree with that.... many cars fail on emissions tests they do, so technically it can't do whatever it feels like outside the NEDC cycle..

Long Time Lurker

"I want compensation" says just one VW customer on the Panorama program this evening.

How can I say this! MONUMENTAL.

It'll all be grand, nothing will come of it, can't see anything major to come out of it all. Are people honestly still thinking this. S##t fest on a corporate scale probably never seen before.

BoatMad

robtri wrote: »

i would disagree with that.... many cars fail on emissions tests they do, so technically it can't do whatever it feels like outside the NEDC cycle..

Sorry it can and it is the case. There are no on road emissions test levels. Hence the car merely has to pass an initial certification test , om a dynamoter , following a very stylised test cycle. That's it . What it does when you start it on a cold morning and floor it at the first set of lights is utterly uncontrolled

josip

BoatMad wrote: »

Sorry it can and it is the case. There are no on road emissions test levels. Hence the car merely has to pass an initial certification test , om a dynamoter , following a very stylised test cycle. That's it . What it does when you start it on a cold morning and floor it at the first set of lights is utterly uncontrolled

A bit disingenuous to use the example of flooring it when the engine was cold after starting?
Wasn't a cold start the scenario that VW rigged the engines for?

We started with a hot engine this time.
The same car failed, spectacularly. Emitting 435 mg/km of NOx (remember the EU limit is 180 mg/km).

Long Time Lurker

And now another 85,000 have some other sort of device that's not kosher either. This just keeps on giving :-)

dr.fuzzenstein

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

And now another 85,000 have some other sort of device that's not kosher either. This just keeps on giving :-)

85k what?

RandomAccess

Wait till the press get wind of Soundaktor.
/jk Sort of..

Long Time Lurker

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

85k what?

http://www.worldcarfans.com/1151122101324/volkswagen-of-america-admits-85-000-cars-with-v6-3-0-tdi-engine-have-defeat-device

Special Circumstances

The list of vehicles available in the US, as documented by the incredibly cultish* www.dieselforum.org is shrinking by the day!

http://www.dieselforum.org/diesel-drivers/clean-diesel-vehicles-available-in-the-u-s



*Today’s diesel vehicles are clean, quiet and fun-to-drive, and many consumers are learning diesel is an environmentally conscious option that does not sacrifice power or performance. Clean diesel engines eliminated black smoke since 2007 with the introduction of new particulate filters. Clean diesel technology in today’s properly maintained vehicles emits near zero levels of emissions. Exhaust from new clean diesel trucks is so clean it passes the “white handkerchief test.” If you hold a handkerchief next to the tailpipe and rev the engine, it stays white – picking up no smell or black soot. That's why we call it #cleandiesel. The fact that you can remove and deactivate all emissions controls is irrelevant. Irrelevant we say. In fact, many drivers report fuel economy benefits that consistently rival a hybrid, and exceed EPA window stickers posted mileage, especially with all those silly emissions controls deactivated.