EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

FortySeven

jimgoose wrote: »

It appears to affect the 3l V6 TDI as well.

Presumably this is a replacement for the existing MAF that runs different calibration?

And does not cost €10!

Special Circumstances

FortySeven wrote: »

And does not cost €10!

Now now, don't be using facts to go beating up on "the guy that look weird".

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mass-Air-Flow-Sensor-Meter-MAF-For-Toyota-4Runner-Yaris-RAV4-Camry-22204-22010-/281664045899?hash=item41947c434b:g:X0cAAOSwBLlVLyk7

Seems legit, feel the quaritee!

robbie99

BoatMad wrote: »

There is no " defeat software", fundamentally all small high performance diesels cannot be make compliant while retaining good fuel economy, performance and low CO2.

Thats the bit you seem unwilling to understand or even to actually analyse , rather you engage in " Daily Mail " science
But hey , its also easier to beat up on the guy that look wierd isnt it.

I agree with you that fundamentally small high performance diesel engines cannot be made NOx compliant, without sacrificing fuel economy and low CO2s Performance will also be hit, but then it wouldn't be so high performing... I think we all agree that to make a small diesel engine NOx compliant, tradeoffs against economy and performance have to be made.

And I agree with you that "defeat devices" may not actually be illegal in Europe.

But to conclude that there is no "defeat software", I don't understand you.

The panorama programme showed that the VW and the Opel were both well able to limit their NOx emissions during the NEDC test cycle. The tests may only have been 20 minutes long, but mechanically and technically, these engines can keep their NOx emissions within limits. So why can't they limit their NOx emissions when the engines have warmed up? In theory economy, performance and emissions levels are at their best when an engine is hot and at operating temperature.

If it's not a program (software) in the ecu telling the engine when to switch between running a super eco friendly forget about performance map and a normal usage map then what else could it be?

If it's as simple as having a special map that's in use only for the tests, then although it may not quite be illegal for Europe, it's still programming that's there to defeat the purpose of the test - limiting NOx emissions.

Personally I think that when other manufacturers are saying thinks like - "No, we don't have 'defeat software' fitted to on our engines", the truth is more like "No, we don't have 'defeat software' fitted but we do have 'achieve NOx emissions levels compliance software' fitted".

mickdw

So either the revised airflow meter is going to effect the performance or this fix is a load of horse sh1t.

dr.fuzzenstein

FortySeven wrote: »

What you are saying is that your lifestyle is more important than everyone else's clean air. I manage with petrol. Why can't you?

If you have it all figured out, I invite you to buy me a 525i and pay me the difference in running costs for 5 years. Or you can maybe send me your secret to commuting 120k km a day via petrol, I don't have capital to buy a new car, I can't have a smaller car oh and the I can't take out a loan.
Diesel is legal to drive and if you don't like it you can stand on your head, cover yourself in porridge and whistle Dixie.

FortySeven

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

If you have it all figured out, I invite you to buy me a 525i and pay me the difference in running costs for 5 years. Or you can maybe send me your secret to commuting 120k km a day via petrol, I don't have capital to buy a new car, I can't have a smaller car oh and the I can't take out a loan.
Diesel is legal to drive and if you don't like it you can stand on your head, cover yourself in porridge and whistle Dixie.

Why can't you have a smaller car?

pippip

FortySeven wrote: »

Why can't you have a smaller car?

What sort of doctor drives a small car?

dr.fuzzenstein

FortySeven wrote: »

Why can't you have a smaller car?

Why should I?
Also, there are those of us who don't buy new. So will have to wait till reasonable 2nd hand hybrids come on the market. And I don't consider a Prius reasonable.
Not everyone is an early adopter.

Seth Brundle

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

If you have it all figured out, I invite you to buy me a 525i and pay me the difference in running costs for 5 years. Or you can maybe send me your secret to commuting 120k km a day via petrol, I don't have capital to buy a new car, I can't have a smaller car oh and the I can't take out a loan.
Diesel is legal to drive and if you don't like it you can stand on your head, cover yourself in porridge and whistle Dixie.

I have my E39 525i for 5 years now. Use it every day for commuting.
Whilst the diesel would be cheaper to run, I would always be thinking that I wish I was in something else! I spend so much time in the car that I want my small luxuries.
Each to their own though.

dr.fuzzenstein

kbannon wrote: »

I have my E39 525i for 5 years now. Use it every day for commuting.
Whilst the diesel would be cheaper to run, I would always be thinking that I wish I was in something else! I spend so much time in the car that I want my small luxuries.
Each to their own though.

Nice but couldn't run it for a week.

Long Time Lurker

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Nice but couldn't run it for a week.

But what will you do if diesel is taxed relatively to its real emission figures rather than the nonsense we have now. What happens if all diesel cars get lumped with punitive taxation over the next couple of years and duty on the fuel ends up negating any consumption benefits. Will you just stop driving or will you simply reluctantly switch to a petrol? Maybe even submit to public transport.

Not having a go here, just playing devils advocate if you will.

colm_mcm

vectra wrote: »

Wouldn't that be the same as the 1.6 nissan engine?

It would, yes.

FortySeven

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Why should I?
Also, there are those of us who don't buy new. So will have to wait till reasonable 2nd hand hybrids come on the market. And I don't consider a Prius reasonable.
Not everyone is an early adopter.

So there we have it. Why should I? Your personal decisions dictating everyone else's air quality.

dr.fuzzenstein

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

But what will you do if diesel is taxed relatively to its real emission figures rather than the nonsense we have now. What happens if all diesel cars get lumped with punitive taxation over the next couple of years and duty on the fuel ends up negating any consumption benefits. Will you just stop driving or will you simply reluctantly switch to a petrol? Maybe even submit to public transport.

Not having a go here, just playing devils advocate if you will.

In the long run I'm planning to sell up and move closer to work, so petrol might become an option. As for public transport, I think it would take me 2 days to get to work, cost a fortune and I still would have to drive part of the way, so not an option where I live.
For now nothing has changed, presently there is no viable alternative for me so I have to keep going as I am for now and cross that bridge when I come to it. If I still have a roof over my head after the last few years, I'll manage in the future. I will find a way. It might not always be pretty, in keeping with the spirit of the thing or completely kosher, but one has to have their wits about them when they want to survive and the government seemingly does everything in their power to ruin us all. You can be honest, or you can survive. Once you earn less than €60k that is practically a survival mantra.
Some people said there will be incentives for petrol. Sadly we live in Ireland, all the government knows is tax and ban. So the usual strategy of that will be employed and then there will be hands on hips, sucking of teeth and widespread wonderment why everything went to sh*t along with housing, public transport, healthcare, education, etc... We don't do solutions, we just look at what we don't want and then bring about the ruination of that thing.

Zurbaran

Petrols aren't a million miles away from diesels in fuel consumption these days. For example the Mazda 2 my parents bought with a 1.5 naturally aspirated engine will do more mpg than the CX5 it will replace. Yes it is about 480kg lighter and has less torque but it is only .2 of a second slower (both are very quick in their segments). The one with 115 bhp from the same 1.5 engine is faster than the CX5 and in real world terms would still get more mpg I would think.

I'd love one of those new Merc C200's but along with me being far too poor to afford one there doesn't seem to be any in Ireland. Mad really how a 45/50k car doesn't get sold here because it only does 90% the mpg and the tax is about €150 extra a month than the more expensive diesel.

Long Time Lurker

FortySeven wrote: »

So there we have it. Why should I? Your personal decisions dictating everyone else's air quality.

Well yes and no. You've still gotta make financially sensible decisions for yourself and when those decisions are being motivated by social engineering via taxation then its hardly the end users fault.

You're right in theory with what you say. It is a conscious decision to drive a car that's knowingly affecting your own health and the health of others but if its that or eat then I'd pick eat too :-)

colm_mcm

Why demonize one diesel driver
Until governments stop fuelling public transport with diesel, until people stop using heating oil to warm their houses, there will always be nasties getting into the air.

Dr.Fuzz is only one driver.

FortySeven

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

Well yes and no. You've still gotta make financially sensible decisions for yourself and when those decisions are being motivated by social engineering via taxation then its hardly the end users fault.

You're right in theory with what you say. It is a conscious decision to drive a car that's knowingly affecting your own health and the health of others but if its that or eat then I'd pick eat too :-)

I manage just fine with a fiesta 1.25 and I have 3 kids. Most people in the world manage with much less. Expectations have become obscene imo. Where people 'need' luxury. I find it quite sickening if I'm perfectly honest. A 525? Really?

Now that's Not to say I think we should all use mopeds but claiming the the moral high ground is slightly crass. Diesel is a terrible concept outside of heavy haulage. Thank god the truth is finally coming out.

Long Time Lurker

I'm not gonna begrudge someone having a nice car. I'm not gonna slate someone for having a need to drive a diesel. And to be fair so long as we're using fossil fuels to generate energy (delusional electric car owners, that includes you too) then none of us can take the high ground.

Fighting each other is nonsene though.Fighting the government cronies, easily influenced/lobbied/bought off Eurocrats and policy makers who sign this crap off because of their high flying corporate mates is what we should be doing.

FortySeven

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

I'm not gonna begrudge someone having a nice car. I'm not gonna slate someone for having a need to drive a diesel. And to be fair so long as we're using fossil fuels to generate energy (delusional electric car owners, that includes you too) then none of us can take the high ground.

Fighting each other is nonsene though.Fighting the government cronies, easily influenced/lobbied/bought off Eurocrats and policy makers who sign this crap off because of their high flying corporate mates is what we should be doing.

True.

pippip

I think its hard to compare modern petrols with good mpg to diesels. The main reason being what the cars are used for.

If you have a long commute every day a Mazda 2, Ford fiesta etc MIGHT come close on mpg, possibly on national roads & urban, if its mostly motorway I doubt the figures would be as close at all.

The main reason I feel you cant compare these is you would be a physical and mental wreck each week. These small petrols are just not designed for long distance commutes. Comfort levels, build quality, aerodynamics (crosswinds wise) grip to the road, all these are reduced. Motorway driving on a daily basis is just not pleasant in a small motor.

Until they make a modern petrol with good mpg that can match its direct diesel model equivalent then you cannot compare the two.

JohnBoy26

colm_mcm wrote: »

Why demonize one diesel driver
Until governments stop fuelling public transport with diesel, until people stop using heating oil to warm their houses, there will always be nasties getting into the air.

Dr.Fuzz is only one driver.

As a certain supermarket says "every little helps"

Zurbaran

pippip wrote: »

I think its hard to compare modern petrols with good mpg to diesels. The main reason being what the cars are used for.

If you have a long commute every day a Mazda 2, Ford fiesta etc MIGHT come close on mpg, possibly on national roads & urban, if its mostly motorway I doubt the figures would be as close at all.

The main reason I feel you cant compare these is you would be a physical and mental wreck each week. These small petrols are just not designed for long distance commutes. Comfort levels, build quality, aerodynamics (crosswinds wise) grip to the road, all these are reduced. Motorway driving on a daily basis is just not pleasant in a small motor.

Until they make a modern petrol with good mpg that can match its direct diesel model equivalent then you cannot compare the two.

I only drove the Mazda 2 for around 30 minutes so I don't know if you would get the same or better mpg if you were using motorways regularly. I do suspect that a small car with a comparatively big engine should be a better bet than a similar car with a small turbo engine for fuel economy but that could just be in my head.

I did notice that there was less noise at 120kph than both the CX5 and 3 which really surprised me. The 3 was the loudest in the cabin. I found it the same as the golf I test drove which again surprised me.

Leonard Hofstadter

pippip wrote: »

I think its hard to compare modern petrols with good mpg to diesels. The main reason being what the cars are used for.

If you have a long commute every day a Mazda 2, Ford fiesta etc MIGHT come close on mpg, possibly on national roads & urban, if its mostly motorway I doubt the figures would be as close at all.

The main reason I feel you cant compare these is you would be a physical and mental wreck each week. These small petrols are just not designed for long distance commutes. Comfort levels, build quality, aerodynamics (crosswinds wise) grip to the road, all these are reduced. Motorway driving on a daily basis is just not pleasant in a small motor.

Until they make a modern petrol with good mpg that can match its direct diesel model equivalent then you cannot compare the two.

Don't know about the smaller cars, but on medium sized cars a decent sized petrol engine is perfectly fine.

Two weekends ago I drove a Mazda 3 with its seemingly "massive" 2.0 litre engine (that all the petrol haters on this thread would have you believe would mean I'd need my own oil reserve to run it), I got 42 mpg doing mostly 130 km/h and over 47 mpg on a variety of main roads and urban driving.

If those figures were from a diesel you'd say that's OK, but this is petrol we're taking about, and a (relatively) large capacity NA petrol at that! On a similar motorway jaunt (at about the same speeds) last year I got 45 mpg from a 2.0 TDCI Mondeo - that's only 3 mpg more. OK, the Mazda is smaller, lighter and less powerful, but it just shows what some modern petrols are capable of. I have no experience of the downsized turbo yokes, but whatever gubbins Mazda has put into its Skyactiv petrol allows them to come very close to a modern diesel. The Mondeo's mpg is only 7% better - usually the gap between petrols and diesels is 25-30%.

Because it comes so close to the Mondeo in mpg it's actually better for the planet than the diesel, thanks to the fact that diesel engines spew out 13% more CO2 than a petrol does for the exact same mpg.

Therefore if the car taxation system was in any way fair and diesel was at least 13% more expensive per litre than petrol, it would be cheaper to run a petrol Mazda 3 than a diesel Mondeo. Of course, because our taxation system makes absolutely no sense and is totally skewed towards diesels, it most certainly will not cost its owner less money to run than a diesel Mondeo, even though it's better for the planet and far better for our lungs.

Incidentally, the autumn statement (a mini budget if you like) was announced in the UK today, and there has been a change of plan to the company car tax system for diesels, as a direct result of what's been going on with VW.

At the moment the company car system in the UK is based on CO2 emissions, however diesels are slapped with an additional 3% levy because of their inferiority at looking after our lungs compared to a petrol. This was due to be scrapped next year because the latest diesels are supposed to be 'clean' after all (though even if they were as 'clean' as they are claimed to be, they are only required to be as clean as a properly functioning Euro 4 petrol - a standard required from 10 years ago!). Well bad news for diesel fans, the UK Government has decided to keep the 3% surcharge for all diesels until at least 2021 until such time as Euro 6 diesels can be verified to be at least as clean as petrols from 2005 were!

So by 2021 we might (hopefully) have diesels that will meet standards petrol engines were meant to meet a whole 16 years beforehand! What a total farce.

cadaliac

Does anyone know what VW plan to use as a fix? I saw (here i think) something about a MAF change?
Is this true, anyone know? or, is it all just hearsay?

Edit:http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/71f3be26-718a-11e5-9b9e-690fdae72044.html#axzz3scJsD5p8

Says that VW shares dropped 35% and "ADblue" is the way forward for the company.

colm_mcm

Yeah, they'll rebadge them as bluebluemotion

Special Circumstances

Brown motion hurhurdeehurhur

RedorDead

VW announce fix plans today:

http://www.completecar.ie/car-news/article/5555/Volkswagen-announces-Euro-fix-for-1.6-diesel

pippip

^ from article

Volkswagen is also saying that the 2.0-litre and 1.2-litre EA189 engines will only need a software update, and that all the changes are designed to cause no change to engine performance, consumption or emissions

Did I read that right?????

Toyotafanboi

Was thinking the same. I assume they mean Co2 for those panicing over the cheap tax.