EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

mickdw

RedorDead wrote: »

VW announce fix plans today:

http://www.completecar.ie/car-news/article/5555/Volkswagen-announces-Euro-fix-for-1.6-diesel

I hope this blows up in their faces yet again.
This would very much appear to be a cover up to fix a cheat.
what are they actually fixing I would wonder. The cars passed the test. One would assume they will pass the same test after the fix.
The cars are very polluting in real world and will continue to be.

Markcheese

Of course it'll be the same test ... That's the system - (and yes it's stupid ) . But you can't say to manufacturers pass this test and your fine , and then give out about how they pass ... The American system is different in that the vehicle has to be capable of being below emissions levels at all times on the road... Unless it's a truck and then it can churn out loads of crap...

H.E. Pennypacker

pippip wrote: »

^ from article

Volkswagen is also saying that the 2.0-litre and 1.2-litre EA189 engines will only need a software update, and that all the changes are designed to cause no change to engine performance, consumption or emissions

Did I read that right?????

You did, but the article on completecar.ie is incorrect and somewhat careless. The actual VW wording is:

"• Target: no adverse effects on fuel consumption and performance... The objective for the development of the technical measures is still to achieve the applicable emission targets in each case without any adverse effects on the engine output, fuel consumption and performance. However, as all model variants first have to be measured, the achievement of these targets cannot yet be finally confirmed."

from: http://www.volkswagenag.com/content/vwcorp/info_center/en/news/2015/11/Massnahmen_KBA.html

RandomAccess

Looks like a fast fix.
Will be interesting to see the test results when they are rolled out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0PXbxKY6NI

Special Circumstances

RandomAccess wrote: »

Looks like a fast fix.
Will be interesting to see the test results when they are rolled out.

It would be difficult to make an engine fail EU nox emissions tests id say. The result will the the same as before... pass.


The quick fix won't work in the US.

Martypants1

Any word on when these fixes are happening or what? No chance of any comp? :P

cadaliac

Special Circumstances wrote: »

It would be difficult to make an engine fail EU nox emissions tests id say. The result will the the same as before... pass.


The quick fix won't work in the US.

Sorry, don't get what you are saying here. Why wouldn't European scrutineers be as effective as yanks?
I accept that american standards (nox) might be higher/better/more difficult to pass but outside of regulations in the US, why should the Europeans (smaller market) be made to suffer a substandard quality of emissions from the same car? That is of course, if European decision makers say it's ok to do so.
I think it boils down to market share. Americans won't stand for it but what? Europeans will?
No, no I don't think so.

When this story broke I thought, yerra, it'll be swept under the carpet. Now, I don't think so. This is ****!ng huge.
In a bad way for VW.

The sheer size of the compensation package in the US of A will depict the size of the correction bill in Europe.
It's Europe just watching the States again - "let's see what happens" kind of an effort. Again, I think it's down to the size of the market in the states.

I read somewhere recently, "they are too big to fail", funny, I read that about the Irish banks one time before too.

Special Circumstances

cadaliac wrote: »

Sorry, don't get what you are saying here. Why wouldn't European scrutineers be as effective as yanks?
I accept that american standards (nox) might be higher/better/more difficult to pass but outside of regulations in the US, why should the Europeans (smaller market) be made to suffer a substandard quality of emissions from the same car? That is of course, if European decision makers say it's ok to do so.
I think it boils down to market share. Americans won't stand for it but what? Europeans will?
No, no I don't think so.

Huh? Europeans are only delighted to be force fed filthy clattery engines for passenger vehicles. Where have you been for the last decade? The more hazardous to health the better as long as it produces less gaseous plant food.

galwaytt

cadaliac wrote: »

Sorry, don't get what you are saying here. Why wouldn't European scrutineers be as effective as yanks?
I accept that american standards (nox) might be higher/better/more difficult to pass but outside of regulations in the US, why should the Europeans (smaller market) be made to suffer a substandard quality of emissions from the same car? That is of course, if European decision makers say it's ok to do so.
I think it boils down to market share. Americans won't stand for it but what? Europeans will?
No, no I don't think so.

When this story broke I thought, yerra, it'll be swept under the carpet. Now, I don't think so. This is ****!ng huge.
In a bad way for VW.

The sheer size of the compensation package in the US of A will depict the size of the correction bill in Europe.
It's Europe just watching the States again - "let's see what happens" kind of an effort. Again, I think it's down to the size of the market in the states.

I read somewhere recently, "they are too big to fail", funny, I read that about the Irish banks one time before too.

Because European jobs and the German economy are at stake, that's why. We will see the Germans come up with their version of "too big to fail".

two wheels good

cadaliac wrote: »

Sorry, don't get what you are saying here. Why wouldn't European scrutineers be as effective as yanks?
I accept that american standards (nox) might be higher/better/more difficult to pass but outside of regulations in the US, why should the Europeans (smaller market) be made to suffer a substandard quality of emissions from the same car? That is of course, if European decision makers say it's ok to do so.
......

Maybe because the political will is not present.

The European Commission voted a month ago to delay the introduction of stricter, real-world tests for diesels.
They agreed to allow NOx emissions limits to be exceeded by more than double for another few years (maybe two years AFAIR).

The Netherlands was the only country to vote against this proposal. And this was in the middle of a scandal exposing how lax EU emissions regulation is ineffective the first place.

(BTW. US NOx emissions limits are approx 3 times lower that the EU.)

Truckermal

Dear Customer



We are pleased to inform you that the German Automobile authorities have tested and approved the fix on the 1.6 Tdi and 2.0 Tdi diesel engines affected by the NOX emission issue. We are also very pleased to inform you that the fix is not significant and the the dire consequences predicted by many in the press, social media and our competitors were greatly exaggerated.



At present, the fix is not compulsory (this may change in time) so there is no obligation on you to get this fix completed on your car. The fix is as follows,



2.0 TDI engines Software Update only, which will take about an hour.

1.6 TDI engines Software Update and the addition of a mesh filter in front of the air mass metre, which will take about 90 minutes.



If your car is affected by the emission issue, you will already have received a letter from VW Ireland informing you of this fact. If you are unsure as to whether or not your car is affected, you can check it on www.campaigncheck.ie by inputting your registration number on this site.



We will begin repairing the cars affected in April 2016 and begin with the 2.0 TDI engine followed by the 1.6 TDI engine later in the year. If you decide to get this repair completed, it can be completed at your next service or at a time of your choosing. You will not be inconvenienced in any way while we complete this fix, if you do decide to get the fix completed.



We apologise for the confusion and upset that the emission issue caused many of you. We also apologise for the lack of and confused communications coming from Volkswagen. Unfortunately, this was necessary because Volkswagen/Audi/Seat did not want to release any information until such time as the fix had been approved and tested by the German automotive authorities.



If you need any further clarification, please contact us.



Regards,

Seth Brundle

"not significant"
"were greatly exaggerated"
"not compulsory ... there is no obligation"
"repairing"
"repair"
"You will not be inconvenienced in any way while we complete this fix"

Lovely PR there!

5W30

kbannon wrote: »

"not significant"
"were greatly exaggerated"
"not compulsory ... there is no obligation"
"repairing"
"repair"
"You will not be inconvenienced in any way while we complete this fix"

Lovely PR there!

So they get blamed for lying about emissions and then when they come up with a fix they say it's not compulsory?

What's the point of the fix then?

CJhaughey

Look at the timing, this is designed to get the new software out and installed along with any pieces of crap that might be needed like mesh cages for the MAF sensor.
Then they can say its done and all engines are compliant.

If they had to pay every owner here and the UK €1000/£600 the situation might be quite different.
I'd be very reluctant to have any software mod performed on a VAG car if I didn't know what it was and how it affected economy/power/drivability/longevity.

Its a case of move along now, nothing to see here, all done and dusted.

Special Circumstances

Assuming (1.6tdi) that it is an EU letter :

Funny how it's now a "NOX emission issue" not a "we cheated because we could" issue.

I don't think the NOX emissions at their worst would fail the lax standards of EU testing, so it was never a "NOX emissions issue" in Europe - it was a "dishonesty issue". Which was not greatly exaggerated at all.

Strange tone - is it a letter from Wolfsburg translated to English, or is it the work of one of the acolytes in the Irish office?

mickdw

5W30 wrote: »

So they get blamed for lying about emissions and then when they come up with a fix they say it's not compulsory?

What's the point of the fix then?

It smells.
Why admit to all this fraud if in fact the cars were fine all along?
I really hope someone can hand them their ass over this.

Martypants1

WTF? Surely if they have this software issue that cheats the test that means they have to fix it? Otherwise it's not an issue and no car needs to be fixed?

aphex™

What about the MPG scamming?

Won't somebody think about the MPG scam?

josip

If it's such a straightforward fix, why didn't they just design it that way to start with?

CJhaughey

josip wrote: »

If it's such a straightforward fix, why didn't they just design it that way to start with?

Because maybe the fixed software makes the car drive like crap, poor fuel economy or other reasons.
Plus the software is likely global not market specific and VW likely wouldn't make one version for the US and another for EU because it costs money to write code.

ba_barabus

More accurate airflow measurement will marginally (or should that be negligibly) reduce HC, CO, PM and CO2 emissions, but it won't do anything for NOx which is the measurement they failed on

NOx is an unfortunate side effect of efficient combustion- the bigger the difference in pre- and post-burn temperature, the more cylinder pressure and therefore more torque, so this was the aim for most of the 1970s and 1980s. However, high combustion temperatures will cause the nitrogen present in the air to oxidise, causing NOx, which causes respiratory problems such as asthma and lung cancer, and environmental problems such as smog and acid rain.

This is why every diesel Euro 4 onwards has an intercooler and most have an EGR cooler- getting the incoming gas cooler is the only way to get a decent rise in temperature, without the post-burn temperature being above the level to burn the nitrogen.

Of course a nice warm incoming air stream helps vaporise the incoming fuel, keeping unburnt fuel (HC, CO, PM) emissions to a minimum...

I suspect for Euro 7 on heavy vehicles we'll see more innovative ways of cooling incoming air, such as air con-type intake systems, even higher injection pressures to help vaporise the fuel, and an end to diesel engines on light vehicles as diesels get more complex, petrols get more economy and li-ion ranges get longer.

Long Time Lurker

What's been approved? What are they changing to do what to have the effect of what! Why are they changing anything! Why didn't they just do this in the first place if that's what was needed instead of going on this elaborate garden path! Nah lads, this is a brush off.

Dear VW

Can you confirm that, after any modifications are made by yourselves to my vehicle, my VAG product will perform identically in every way to the car I originally purchased, have no adverse effect on my on my power outputs such as BHP, torque and importantly the point at which it develops its optimum power, will add no extra running cost to the vehicle both from a servicing point of view and a component longevity point of view, and lastly will have no adverse effect on my fuel consumption figures i.e. my Litre per 100 KM will not deteriorate in any way.

Thanks, Customer.

two wheels good

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Assuming (1.6tdi) that it is an EU letter :

Funny how it's now a "NOX emission issue" not a "we cheated because we could" issue.

I don't think the NOX emissions at their worst would fail the lax standards of EU testing, so it was never a "NOX emissions issue" in Europe - it was a "dishonesty issue". Which was not greatly exaggerated at all.

Strange tone - is it a letter from Wolfsburg translated to English, or is it the work of one of the acolytes in the Irish office?

Of course it's a "NOx emissions issue" in the EU.
The actual emissions are 10 or 20 times the US permitted levels. The EU permitted levels are ~3 times the US permitted levels. Ergo it is to be expected EU permitted are exceeded by a wide margin.
Also see recent Panaorama programme - emissions well over permitted levels

It is very suspicious that no results from EU testing after the scandal was exposed have been published. Instead the EU Commission votes to relax emissions standards - see my earlier post.

I'm tired of reading people being jesuitical on the point just because no official up-to-date tests results are available.

Special Circumstances

two wheels good wrote: »

Of course it's a "NOx emissions issue" in the EU.
The actual emissions are 10 or 20 times the US permitted levels. The EU permitted levels are ~3 times the US permitted levels. Ergo it is to be expected EU permitted are exceeded by a wide margin.
Also see recent Panaorama programme - emissions well over permitted levels

It is very suspicious that no results from EU testing after the scandal was exposed have been published. Instead the EU Commission votes to relax emissions standards - see my earlier post.

I'm tired of reading people being jesuitical on the point just because no official up-to-date tests results are available.

So why is it not a compulsory fix...
I not saying you're wrong, but someone or something is wrong here.

I don't think nox emissions on the farcical eu test have been compared to the lax eu limits at all. The 20x figures come from US on road tests afaik.if that is the case then it is quite feasible to pass the contrived EU lab tests as is.

In an ideal world tests would have sensible limits and sensible test conditions of course, but we're dealing with a world where nox emissions are not worthy of a compulsory fix to meet the most lax limits in the developed world...



Here la,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#Emission_standards
Well within spec on dyno, plenty room in EU spec to pass even without defeat mode (in my amateur opinion), hence non compulsory (in my amateur opinion). Of course the real world (up to 40x) emissions are orders of magnitude higher - I mean, doesn't everyone know this? Come on, nobody really believed in "clean" diesels saving the planet did they? We all know it's a con, even the derv fanboys know this deep down.

cadaliac

What is this test you all speak of?


Its a little ridiculous that there are no results, tests or public information forthcoming from VW alright.

Yerra, 'till be grand...... (or whatever the German version is)
:rolleyes:

Gazzmonkey

Don't worry about it lads, nothing to see here.

Move along now

two wheels good

Special Circumstances wrote: »

So why is it not a compulsory fix...
I not saying you're wrong, but someone or something is wrong here.

I don't think nox emissions on the farcical eu test have been compared to the lax eu limits at all. The 20x figures come from US on road tests afaik.if that is the case then it is quite feasible to pass the contrived EU lab tests as is.

In an ideal world tests would have sensible limits and sensible test conditions of course, but we're dealing with a world where nox emissions are not worthy of a compulsory fix to meet the most lax limits in the developed world...

Here la,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#Emission_standards
Well within spec on dyno, plenty room in EU spec to pass even without defeat mode (in my amateur opinion), hence non compulsory (in my amateur opinion). Of course the real world (up to 40x) emissions are orders of magnitude higher - I mean, doesn't everyone know this? Come on, nobody really believed in "clean" diesels saving the planet did they? We all know it's a con, even the derv fanboys know this deep down.

Yes, a great deal is very wrong!
The EU regulators haven't made the fix compulsory and VW don't want to because they know many owners are concerned economy or performance will suffer.

One welcome result of this scandal is the myth of clean diesel has been debunked and the public is aware how farcical EU testing and limits are.

(That wiki table linked doesn't make sense to me. Seems to suggest test readings are withing limits. Maybe my mis-reading)

Special Circumstances

two wheels good wrote: »

Yes, a great deal is very wrong!
...
(That wiki table linked doesn't make sense to me. Seems to suggest test readings are withing limits. Maybe my mis-reading)

That's with defeat mode on, but sure you could drive a nox factory through the EU tests!

two wheels good

Special Circumstances wrote: »

That's with defeat mode on, but sure you could drive a nox factory through the EU tests!

Hah! Those readings are so far below the limit the EPA should have been suspicious from the outset. (I know, hindsight..)

BoatMad

I see, a software " upgrade" and perhaps a wire mesh

yep, smoke and mirrors, why,

because as I said before, the engines are compliant in so much as the EU NEDC test is sh1t to begin with anyway