EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

BoatMad

mickdw wrote: »

Now you are getting it.
You replicate the test conditions but exclude some condition thereby defeating the defeat device. So say for example you very closely replicate all test parameters except you do put steering angle in occasionally.
would we then see massively altered results [you could factor in an effect for resistance due to turning] - if we saw results that in anyway compared to official test, all is good. If on the other hand the results were 8 times higher while driving through a similar process as per the official test , in my opinion this would be a damn good indication of switching taking place and would in effect be revealing the presence of the invisible software.

Carb in the US did a similar trial, where they repeatedly ran the urban cycle of the test repeatidly on a dyno. What they found was that the modified TDI. ( post VW 2014) while it was better then the unmodifid , it released increasingly elevated amounts of nox as the engine warmed

But even more interestingly, the TDI still didn't pass the compliance test anyway

That's the scandal that has been missed, is it that VW effectively forged the compliance tests on the introduction of small engined TDIs in the US from 2012. ( remember US allows self compliance testing )

In my view this is the reality and they " invented " the " defeat software " answer to the CARB , to deflect attention from the compliance issues in the first place. Remember Mike horn claimed this was a few rogue engineers to the senate committee, I'd say VW expected to get a slap on the knuckles and beallowed to try and fix the problem in the US

What they didn't factor was CARB putting all the correspondsnce into the public domain and the power of the Internet in spreading it.

Truckermal

Jaysus remind me not to go for pints with ye lot..

JohnBoy26

Truckermal wrote: »

Jaysus remind me not to go for pints with ye lot..

robbie99

BoatMad wrote: »

But even more interestingly, the TDI still didn't pass the compliance test anyway

That's the scandal that has been missed, is it that VW effectively forged the compliance tests on the introduction of small engined TDIs in the US from 2012. ( remember US allows self compliance testing )

Which particular compliance test are you saying that the TDI couldn't pass and what's the source? Because everything I've read suggests that it could pass all the lab based tests no problem.

BoatMad

robbie99 wrote: »

Which particular compliance test are you saying that the TDI couldn't pass and what's the source? Because everything I've read suggests that it could pass all the lab based tests no problem.

CARB , in 2014 tested the VW against the EPA test suite. This was the modified version post US recall. In a letter to VW , they claimed the car , while better then before , did not pass all the tests , they also performed a part of the EPA test cycle repeatedly on the dynamometer and it clearly failed that.

Fundamentally VW got caught in the US , not because someone detected the " defeat software " , but because as a resultbof the ICCT studies , CARB tested the car independently and found it didn't comply. They also noted the increase in nox as the test differed from the EPA. On challenging VW to answer this , VW blurted out the " defeat software " story. One that has never been Independantly verified

vectra

Are things looking up for VW?

http://www.completecar.ie/car-news/article/5577/Volkswagen-cleared-of-Co2-wrongdoing

Going Forward

Now there are only 36,000 vehicles affected.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/65351/vw-could-sell-luxury-brands-to-fund-diesel-gate-loan

Not 800,000.

Toyotafanboi

Not really by the reading of that. The scale of the second problem is a little smaller than expected but there is still a massive massive problem. 36,000 afftected by the Co2 rumour, not the NoX scandal.

The article reads as if it was almost written by VW...

"just a few hundreds grams out per hundred kilometers lads dont panic. Oh, and write it as 0.1l because that looks smaller than 100g."

BoatMad

vectra wrote: »

Are things looking up for VW?

http://www.completecar.ie/car-news/article/5577/Volkswagen-cleared-of-Co2-wrongdoing

given the " scandal" was mostly mis understood media hype , not helped by VW themselves, was it not ever going to look up for VW once the hype died away

€10 fix in europe on a voluntary recall basis ( typically under 25% take-up )

$1000 feel good bonus for about 12,000 affected US owners, $500 of which has to be spent in VW, looking good VW.......

Toyotafanboi

What's the €10 fix?

josip

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

What's the €10 fix?

Scratch cards.
Winners will be able to buy a 2nd hand replacement car for their VAG.
If you don't win, the VAG recommended advice is to make a papier mache ball of the scratch cards and stick it up the exhaust pipe to block the NoX.

Toyotafanboi

josip wrote: »

Scratch cards.
Winners will be able to buy a 2nd hand replacement car for their VAG.
If you don't win, the VAG recommended advice is to make a papier mache ball of the scratch cards and stick it up the exhaust pipe to block the NoX.

good plan.

the only fixes i'd heard of were the new MAF's and the software updates and i can't see either of those costing VW just a tenner.

JohnBoy26

Going Forward wrote: »

Now there are only 36,000 vehicles affected.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/65351/vw-could-sell-luxury-brands-to-fund-diesel-gate-loan

Not 800,000.

What about the other 11 million effected by NOx emmisions? :pac:

BoatMad

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

good plan.

see either of those costing VW just a tenner.

oh alright then is actually €12.75 ( the grill has been reported by VW as costing €10, plus recall costs, but its a voluntary recall)

BoatMad

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

What about the other 11 million effected by NOx emmisions? :pac:

10 buck grill for a few and an undefined " software upgrade" for the rest , totally voluntary of course

" brings car to dealer", mechanic waves " software wand" over ECU, " right mr punter , all sorted "

drives away

PFM ( as its known in avionics )

Toyotafanboi

BoatMad wrote: »

oh alright then is actually €12.75 ( the grill has been reported by VW as costing €10, plus recall costs, but its a voluntary recall)

so the fix costs nowhere near a tenner then? or will the VW technicians across the world be offering their time for free?

BoatMad

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

so the fix costs nowhere near a tenner then? or will the VW technicians across the world be offering their time for free?

It will not be much different from any other recall such manufacturers carry out on a fairly regular basis , Toyota had some big recalls lately that it easy weathered

No doubt there will be an agreed rates struck with the dealers to implement the recall. so that has to be added.

Since its voluntary, it could be tied to service schedules etc to control costs etc , voluntary recalls are often actually only done when you visit a VW dealer for something else

anyway its not going to be a big deal financially for VW

The USA may be slightly different, but as yet no one has said officially whats exactly to be done and by when, Only three states in the US, have mandatory recall powers for non safety items and California is the only one that has used that power. the other, Texas and Florida, have not tended to enforce non safety recalls.

The likelihood is that outside california the real impact and costs will be lower then expected

mickdw

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

good plan.

the only fixes i'd heard of were the new MAF's and the software updates and i can't see either of those costing VW just a tenner.

Its not a new maf. Its a flow conditioner before the maf - I guess a bit of plastic pipe section - A load of horse manure.
Whatever about the engineers that introduced the cheat software acting alone, the vw engineer that figured this bit of plastic could significantly alter emissions must be on some bonus or maybe he will be the fall guy when 'his' fix is exposed as bullsh1t.

BoatMad

Whatever about the engineers that introduced the cheat software acting alone, the vw engineer that figured this bit of plastic could significantly alter emissions must be on some bonus or maybe he will be the fall guy when 'his' fix is exposed as bullsh1t.

More likely , there was nothing to fix in the first place. but the public need to see " a fix". So they get " a fix"

gctest50

BoatMad wrote: »

10 buck grill for a few and an undefined " software upgrade" for the rest , totally voluntary of course

" brings car to dealer", mechanic waves " software wand" over ECU, " right mr punter , all sorted "

drives away

PFM ( as its known in avionics )

no, they just need to make the car run in "cheat mode" 24/7

SBPhoto

As already stated it will all blow over by Christmas, this time next year it will be forgotten history.

Toyotafanboi

BoatMad wrote: »

It will not be much different from any other recall such manufacturers carry out on a fairly regular basis , Toyota had some big recalls lately that it easy weathered

No doubt there will be an agreed rates struck with the dealers to implement the recall. so that has to be added.

Since its voluntary, it could be tied to service schedules etc to control costs etc , voluntary recalls are often actually only done when you visit a VW dealer for something else

anyway its not going to be a big deal financially for VW

Th

this is probably one of the biggest ever. i don't think anyone is saying it will finish them, but lets not act like they won't feel it.

dealers have pre-arranged labour rates for warranty jobs, from what i've seen somewhere between 25-50% of retail labour, so this will be the most expensive part for VW, not the €10 piece of mesh but the €50 per car in technician time... whats €50 x 11,000,000 again :pac:

also watch your terminology, a voluntary recall wouldn't be much of a recall; a "voluntary recall" is a campaign.

Toyotafanboi

SBPhoto wrote: »

As already stated it will all blow over by Christmas, this time next year it will be forgotten history.

you reckon this'l be done and dusted in a fortnight?

BoatMad

also watch your terminology, a voluntary recall wouldn't be much of a recall; a "voluntary recall" is a campaign.

is exactly as I stated it , it is not a mandatory recall, it is up to the owner to decide to present the car, there is no requirement to do so,
and try and educate yourself then just shooting off stuff


There isn't 11,000,000 cars affected , thats merely a claim , again try and educate yourself on this subject,

Toyotafanboi

BoatMad wrote: »

is exactly as I stated it , it is not a mandatory recall, it is up to the owner to decide to present the car, there is no requirement to do so,
and try and educate yourself then just shooting off stuff

so it's a campaign; not a recall.

a recall is mandatory, because it poses a safety risk to the owner/ user like the notorious Toyota accelerator pedals, BMW with the Takata airbags and Opel with the "thermal incident" Zafiras, the manufacturer writes to the owner and says you need to bring the car back, the car is trying to kill you, we ****ed up and you need to get it back here.

a campaign is not like that. a campaign is as you describe; the manufacturer knows there's a problem, it isn't an immediate safety risk, "we'll see you when we see you". if it's in with us for a service we'll do it then, if you want to bring it in, we'll do it then and if you don't want it done, we aren't in a rush to find you and that's fine too.

keep an eye on your terminology and don't call me Shirley.

BoatMad

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

so it's a campaign; not a recall.

a recall is mandatory, because it poses a safety risk to the owner/ user like the notorious Toyota accelerator pedals, BMW with the Takata airbags and Opel with the "thermal incident" Zafiras, the manufacturer writes to the owner and says you need to bring the car back, the car is trying to kill you, we ****ed up and you need to get it back here.

a campaign is not like that. a campaign is as you describe; the manufacturer knows there's a problem, it isn't an immediate safety risk, "we'll see you when we see you". if it's in with us for a service we'll do it then, if you want to bring it in, we'll do it then and if you don't want it done, we aren't in a rush to find you and that's fine too.

keep an eye on your terminology and don't call me Shirley.

The term voluntary recall is used throughout the literature

but yes whatever we call it , the reality is as you describe

Gazzmonkey

I thought farce would be a better name for it

BoatMad

Gazzmonkey wrote: »

I thought farce would be a better name for it

its a farce because the media have " hyped" this is a big mess but the reality is nothing of the sort

the plastic grill is a placebo to be seen to be " doing" something

colm_mcm

I think in some cases the media are painting a more accurate picture than the vested interests are.
I despise induce panic and media hype, but what vw did was very underhand and it's no harm in knocking them down a peg.

Toyotafanboi

i think it's almost understandable that VW can't do anything, i mean they made cars that can't do what they said they could do.

it's very unreasonable or almost uneducated to expect a genuine repair that will actually reduce emissions as the only thing that will actually do this successfully is removing the "faulty" engines and refitting one that do what they say on the tin. and VW simply don't have the resources to do that to hundreds of thousands of cars.

the only way VW can keep moving is with another lie, in the form of this piece of plastic mesh.

what should be taken from all this, from everybody - owners and witnesses (and that won't actually be ever acknowledged) is the companies absolute ability to **** us all up the arse for their own gain. VW's punishment or comeuppance shouldn't be to have to faux repair all the cars at whatever cost to them, the damage is done now environmentally and nothing will chance that; plastic grille or no plastic grille. their punishment should be their brand name and reputation taking a knock, that is what unhappy people should be pushing for here, because that will do VW justice in the long term, having people think twice before they buy one because that's all the brand really cares about.