EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

Special Circumstances

colm_mcm wrote: »

I think in some cases the media are painting a more accurate picture than the vested interests are.
I despise induce panic and media hype, but what vw did was very underhand and it's no harm in knocking them down a peg.

Underhanded yes. Cynical and morally wrong, yes but unfortunately they are not the only offender under the EU's laughable regulations and tests. Perhaps the most cynical but definitely not the only offender.

Their downfall here was their unbelievable arrogance in thinking they could bluff "clean diesel" in the states. Most other (all other?) manufacturers have the sense not to bring small capacity diesels to the states, VW just couldn't be content with Europe. It's just a whole other level of disregard for what should be sensible, health preserving regulations.

BoatMad

Their downfall here was their unbelievable arrogance in thinking they could bluff "clean diesel" in the states. Most other (all other?) manufacturers have the sense not to bring small capacity diesels to the states, VW just couldn't be content with Europe. It's just a whole other level of disregard for what should be sensible, health preserving regulations.

for bluff, read fake the compliance tests, and yes I agree, in the US VW are guilty as you say. They thought they could steal a match on others by pushing small diesels , ......

BoatMad

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

i think it's almost understandable that VW can't do anything, i mean they made cars that can't do what they said they could do.

No different to any other small diesel on Europe's road,.

Note that in Europe, the EA188 engine does comply , so what are VW fixing

it's very unreasonable or almost uneducated to expect a genuine repair that will actually reduce emissions as the only thing that will actually do this successfully is removing the "faulty" engines and refitting one that do what they say on the tin. and VW simply don't have the resources to do that to hundreds of thousands of cars.

No requirement in EU law to reduce on road emissions , on road emission are not controlled or tested , what would you have VW do, comply with a " moral " limit!!!!

engines are in no way faulty

the only way VW can keep moving is with another lie, in the form of this piece of plastic mesh.

true, the defeat software is a nonsense and dug a deeper hole, they should have fessed up in the USA and removed all 2012+ cars , but of course thats much worse then saying its 5 rogue engineers in a room ,......

what should be taken from all this, from everybody - owners and witnesses (and that won't actually be ever acknowledged) is the companies absolute ability to **** us all up the arse for their own gain. VW's punishment or comeuppance shouldn't be to have to faux repair all the cars at whatever cost to them, the damage is done now environmentally and nothing will chance that; plastic grille or no plastic grille. their punishment should be their brand name and reputation taking a knock, that is what unhappy people should be pushing for here, because that will do VW justice in the long term, having people think twice before they buy one because that's all the brand really cares about.

maybe, but the fact is they engineer a good car, and thats all that people really care about

the rest is tilting at windmills

BoatMad

colm_mcm wrote: »

I think in some cases the media are painting a more accurate picture than the vested interests are.
I despise induce panic and media hype, but what vw did was very underhand and it's no harm in knocking them down a peg.

media have no idea , and are circulating hype

josip

BoatMad wrote: »

...
maybe, but the fact is they engineer a good car, and thats all that people really care about
...

That's a bit of a generalisation that doesn't apply to all "people"
We bought 2 Octavias mainly because of the perceived engineering quality, but would be unlikely to next time around because of the blatant VW dishonesty and some of the engineering quality not being as high as expected (eg. DMF).

Toyotafanboi

BoatMad wrote: »

maybe, but the fact is they engineer a good car, and thats all that people really care about

But do they actually?

They create a car with a good brand image and one with a slightly above average fit and finish, but in reliabilty stakes are they anything more than average?

BoatMad

josip wrote: »

That's a bit of a generalisation that doesn't apply to all "people"
We bought 2 Octavias mainly because of the perceived engineering quality, but would be unlikely to next time around because of the blatant VW dishonesty and some of the engineering quality not being as high as expected (eg. DMF).

well perhaps you could identify a diesel that is not polluting xx times the NEDC limit

let me know when you find one

or is private dishonesty more acceptable then a public one to you

Gazzmonkey

josip wrote: »

That's a bit of a generalisation that doesn't apply to all "people"
We bought 2 Octavias mainly because of the perceived engineering quality, but would be unlikely to next time around because of the blatant VW dishonesty and some of the engineering quality not being as high as expected (eg. DMF).

VW don't make dual mass flywheels.... just saying

P.S DMF's failing are found on any diesel, usually driver misuse.

Special Circumstances

BoatMad wrote: »

well perhaps you could identify a diesel that is not polluting xx times the NEDC limit

let me know when you find one

or is private dishonesty more acceptable then a public one to you

What about the BMW X5 - if that was found to be OK by US standards (evn on the road) then it is way way way under the NEDC limits.

A little inconvenient for the VW revisionists perhaps.

BoatMad

Special Circumstances wrote: »

What about the BMW X5 - if that was found to be OK by US standards (evn on the road) then it is way way way under the NEDC limits.

A little inconvenient for the VW revisionists perhaps.

sure most big engined diesels are OK, expensive to own , repair and run though , I drive a 2.5L diesel its not cheap to run.


anything at or over 3L will have enough power to trade to manage emissions

josip

Gazzmonkey wrote: »

VW don't make dual mass flywheels.... just saying

P.S DMF's failing are found on any diesel, usually driver misuse.

Aren't VW still responsible for whatever components they decide go in to a car they sell?
Are you suggesting we should contact, Bosch, Monroe.. when something breaks?

Special Circumstances

Gazzmonkey wrote: »

VW don't make dual mass flywheels.... just saying

P.S DMF's failing are found on any diesel, usually driver misuse.

They don't make injectors or oil pump drives either - but they do specify them. Automotive industry is well known for absolutely hammering suppliers who don't fulfill the demands of the contract - so these items are either up to VW's desired spec or some supplier screwed up. Either way, years of stalling and denying there is a quality/design issue and ye can all just go and sh1te is a pretty poor attitude to customers.

josip

BoatMad wrote: »

sure most big engined diesels are OK, expensive to own , repair and run though , I drive a 2.5L diesel its not cheap to run.

anything at or over 3L will have enough power to trade to manage emissions

Even a 3.0l V6?

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/24/audi-emissions-fix-tdi-v6-report/

BoatMad

Either way, years of stalling and denying there is a quality/design issue and ye can all just go and sh1te is a pretty poor attitude to customers.

you should try Nissan for "years of stalling and denying" , on their timing chains issues

BoatMad

josip wrote: »

Even a 3.0l V6?

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/11/24/audi-emissions-fix-tdi-v6-report/

fine in Europe, very minor stuff in the USA in relation to big engined diesels

Special Circumstances

BoatMad wrote: »

sure most big engined diesels are OK, expensive to own , repair and run though , I drive a 2.5L diesel its not cheap to run.


anything at or over 3L will have enough power to trade to manage emissions

Ah well, you have an SUV or a pickup or something - your aerodynamics, mass and rolling resistance are contributing to those costs - the same engine in a saloon might be fine.

In general (IE not a comment directly aimed at you BoatMad):
I don't think "oh but a 3.0L diesel which meets regulations in the real world is as expensive to run as a 2.0L petrol" is any justification for cheating the emissions of smaller diesels.
Or if it is, why can't petrol engines have the same derating applied to their CO2 emissions as diesel engines are implicitly allowed on their NOx???

Special Circumstances

BoatMad wrote: »

you should try Nissan for "years of stalling and denying" , on their timing chains issues

You could try BMW, Mercedes, VW...
Are you saying it's OK, or just trying to divert?

BoatMad

Special Circumstances wrote: »

You could try BMW, Mercedes, VW...
Are you saying it's OK, or just trying to divert?

no just that VW are not different to anyone else in reality ,

Toyotafanboi

BoatMad wrote: »

no just that VW are not different to anyone else in reality ,

try telling the owners that :pac:

BoatMad

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Ah well, you have an SUV or a pickup or something - your aerodynamics, mass and rolling resistance are contributing to those costs - the same engine in a saloon might be fine.

In general (IE not a comment directly aimed at you BoatMad):
I don't think "oh but a 3.0L diesel which meets regulations in the real world is as expensive to run as a 2.0L petrol" is any justification for cheating the emissions of smaller diesels.
Or if it is, why can't petrol engines have the same derating applied to their CO2 emissions as diesel engines are implicitly allowed on their NOx???

Big diesels can sacrifice power and consumption to improve NOX emissions in particular , its a lot harder as the engine size reduces , and the customer expectations of fuel economy increase


VW in reality isn't cheating any more then any other small engined diesel , the truth is " they are all cheating :" as is the EU regulator because the NEDC is a joke

fundamentally a diesel is simply dirtier then petrol , thats a fact , thats why all these gubbins are needed to clean it up.

simply tax car diesel at a higher rate then petrol and watch the change

BoatMad

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

try telling the owners that :pac:

there no accounting for " faith " in car ownership

I've owned or run NISSAN , LAND ROVER, FIAT , AUDI, MITSUBISHI, FORD, LANCIA, ALPHA ROMEO, HYUNDAI, SAAB, ROVER, JEEP, BMW, MERCEDES , LEXUS
oh and TOYOTA

only the lexus was truly trouble free, followed by one particular Range Rover

call me a cynic

Toyotafanboi

BoatMad wrote: »

there no accounting for " faith " in car ownership

I've owned or run NISSAN , LAND ROVER, FIAT , AUDI, MITSUBISHI, FORD, LANCIA, ALPHA ROMEO, HYUNDAI, SAAB, ROVER, JEEP, BMW, MERCEDES , LEXUS
oh and TOYOTA

only the lexus was truly trouble free, followed by one particular Range Rover

call me a cynic

absolutely. had many many different manufacturers myself and found Toyota and some older Nissans to give absolutely hassle free ownership.

That said i had a Cunto that took serious abuse trouble free too and my current Toyota is hopeless about the only thing i havn't replaced is the glass... ...did i just hear something shattering outside?

BoatMad

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

absolutely. had many many different manufacturers myself and found Toyota and some older Nissans to give absolutely hassle free ownership.

That said i had a Cunto that took serious abuse trouble free too and my current Toyota is hopeless about the only thing i havn't replaced is the glass... ...did i just hear something shattering outside?

best car was a fiat , I bought for a grand, ran till it burst , repairs were peanuts , but there was a few repairs , wife loved it, did 180,000KM for that grands with nearly 300,000km when it burst .....

Special Circumstances

Or just derate CO2 emissions by petrols by 5x, 10x figure, whatever the average is for diesels average exceeding of NOx. Imagine the "but! but! but!s" from the dervboys.
Or add a "nox emissions" charge per litre on Diesel.


That "extra 10c per litre charge on petrol for CO2" but diesels can pass ridiculous tests and never be forced to keep DPFs in working order or even fitted... up there with the "ye must all buy sickly yellow bulbs with mercury in them lads, it's gonna save the planet" green codology.

The Greens can never be taken seriously until they promise to at least consider science and common sense... and admit that incentivising diesels achieved very little in CO2 terms but did more harm than good in particulates and NOx.

BoatMad

The Greens can never be taken seriously

that part of your sentence was sufficient ...:D

Special Circumstances

BoatMad wrote: »

that part of your sentence was sufficient ...:D

It bugs me so much. I drive a petrol and I use halogen bulbs, but I really want there to be credible green policies based on science and efficiency and common sense and long term net environmental gain rather than the mix of wishy washy arts students idealogy, nonsensical, commercial interests or tax excuses disguised as "green" rubbish policies that we have.

BoatMad

Special Circumstances wrote: »

It bugs me so much. I drive a petrol and I use halogen bulbs, but I really want there to be credible green policies based on science and efficiency and common sense and long term net environmental gain rather than the mix of wishy washy arts students idealogy, nonsensical, commercial interests or tax excuses disguised as "green" rubbish policies that we have.

personally I just wish the local shop would stock my magazine, both ideals seem difficult to achieve !!!!!:D

gallag

BoatMad, just out of intrest, do you have shares in VW?

BoatMad

gallag wrote: »

BoatMad, just out of intrest, do you have shares in VW?

no, see my list of cars, no VW ever present , I do understand the car industry as I worked in a side of it for several years ( designing engine assembly robots )

VW made a mistake in the US, a big one, in Europe its the regulators tacit acceptance of polluting small diesels that is the scandal not VW.

I think the only shares Ive ever owned was Eircom !!!!

Joe 90

BoatMad wrote: »

sure most big engined diesels are OK, expensive to own , repair and run though , I drive a 2.5L diesel its not cheap to run.


anything at or over 3L will have enough power to trade to manage emissions

But the guy with the bigger engine may well ahve bought it just because he wants the power. In fact, why else would he buy it?