EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

EndaHonesty

s.welstead wrote: »

Really?

The original ADAC report does not compare a Ford Focus to a Tesla, it compares the Focus Electric to a Focus 1.5 Ecoboost & a Focus 2.0 Tdci.

Your quote is not from the original report.

stesaurus

EndaHonesty wrote: »

The original ADAC report does not compare a Ford Focus to a Tesla, it compares the Focus Electric to a Focus 1.5 Ecoboost & a Focus 2.0 Tdci.

Your quote is not from the original report.

Yes, amazingly enough I was commenting on what had been posted up to that point.

EndaHonesty

s.welstead wrote: »

Yes, amazingly enough I was commenting on what had been posted up to that point.

You completely dismissed the report without reading it. Go you.

stesaurus

EndaHonesty wrote: »

You completely dismissed the report without reading it. Go you.

The report hadn't been posted when I did. It still hasn't in full detail. The table provided just from a cursory glance is a load of twaddle without knowing the full details.

Take the model S for example. Expensive electricity at 28c per kw but maybe accurate in Germany. I'd imagine it averages between 18-21 kw for 100km. So to go 1km it's about 6c. So out of the 137c per km on that table there's 131 unaccounted for and no data to explain.

EndaHonesty

s.welstead wrote: »

The report hadn't been posted when I did. It still hasn't in full detail. The table provided just from a cursory glance is a load of twaddle without knowing the full details.

Take the model S for example. Expensive electricity at 28c per kw but maybe accurate in Germany. I'd imagine it averages between 18-21 kw for 100km. So to go 1km it's about 6c. So out of the 137c per km on that table there's 131 unaccounted for and no data to explain.

So rather than search for the actual report to read yourself you just dismiss it?

All the data is on the ADAC website.

https://www.adac.de/infotestrat/autodatenbank/detail.aspx?KFZID=254862&info=Tesla+Model+S+70++(ab+06%2f16)

Special Circumstances

Never come on boards.ie without ALL your homework done lol.

samih

Would be interesting to see the numbers in Ireland for Leaf vs. Pulsar with electricity cost of [free|8c|17c]/kWh and including the current government subsidy of 10k. Depreciation is a killer in Ireland for sure.

BoatMad

The ADAC report is flawed, its min maxes to get favourable comparisons for ICE cars. It also doesnt take into account that in some countries purchase price is supported by grants and rebates

in ireland you can charge at home at night a 0.765 cents per KWh , that nearly 4 times cheaper then the value taken in the ADAC report, that fact in itself invalidates the whole report. Germany discounted electricity rates are actually lower then ireland . There is far more variability in electric pricing , so you have to be careful what you choose

Because of the tax and subsidies, you can really only do a country by country comparison , hear the state subvents each true EV ( not hybrids) , by 10K euros, bring a 30K EV down to comparable priced ICE levels.

add in lowest motor tax and current free public charging, lower maintenance costs , then running a true EV is far far cheaper then diesel as it sits today in Ireland . You also currently get the home charger unit installed and supplied free , a 1000 euros saving

Against that you have the technical limitations , poor model selection ( hence purchase range of costs issues ) and a somewhat unreliable public charger infrastructure

Yes you can easily make EVs compare badly , by inflating the costs of electricity etc . But you must take the hear and now to arrive at proper comparisons

robtri

BoatMad wrote: »

The ADAC report is flawed, its min maxes to get favourable comparisons for ICE cars. It also doesnt take into account that in some countries purchase price is supported by grants and rebates

in ireland you can charge at home at night a 0.765 cents per KWh , that nearly 4 times cheaper then the value taken in the ADAC report, that fact in itself invalidates the whole report. Germany discounted electricity rates are actually lower then ireland . There is far more variability in electric pricing , so you have to be careful what you choose

Because of the tax and subsidies, you can really only do a country by country comparison , hear the state subvents each true EV ( not hybrids) , by 10K euros, bring a 30K EV down to comparable priced ICE levels.

add in lowest motor tax and current free public charging, lower maintenance costs , then running a true EV is far far cheaper then diesel as it sits today in Ireland . You also currently get the home charger unit installed and supplied free , a 1000 euros saving

Against that you have the technical limitations , poor model selection ( hence purchase range of costs issues ) and a somewhat unreliable public charger infrastructure

Yes you can easily make EVs compare badly , by inflating the costs of electricity etc . But you must take the hear and now to arrive at proper comparisons

so have you a report for Ireland?? that has been peer reviewed?

BoatMad

robtri wrote: »

so have you a report for Ireland?? that has been peer reviewed?

no one does not exist , nor is the ADAC peer reviewed, its a biased non scientific paper from an auto club that primarily promotes conventional cars

robtri

BoatMad wrote: »

no one does not exist , nor is the ADAC peer reviewed, its a biased non scientific paper from an auto club that primarily promotes conventional cars

i never supported the ADAC report...
so it fair to say since a report doesnt exist that you can't compare correctly EV and ICE here in ireland and therefore cannot say which is better or worse?

BoatMad

robtri wrote: »

i never supported the ADAC report...
so it fair to say since a report doesnt exist that you can't compare correctly EV and ICE here in ireland and therefore cannot say which is better or worse?

You can certainly do the maths yourself , night rate is available at 7.65 cents the price of diesel and petrol are well known

currently it costs approx 1.40 per day to travel 120-150 km in a nissan Leaf, depending on how much is left each day in the battery and the style of driving

one service a year or 30k km , at approx 120 euros, essentially a simple service

tyres are at similar prices to ordinary ones, the Leaf carries no real specialist tyre anyway

brakes last longer due to regenerative braking

Charging infrastructure is currently free and no indications of what future fee regimes might be like as yet.


easy enough to do the maths

reklamos

I think the point that is being missed here is that this report taking the upfront cost of the new car.
So if I take the similar models below, EVs are ~10k more expensive to ICE.
--
Ford Focus Electric 34900
Ford Focus 1.5 25310
--
Nissan Leaf 32385
Nissan Pulsar 1.2 22290
--
VW e-up! 26900
VW up! 1.0 15805
--
VW e-Golf 34900
VW Golf 1.2 24175

This means that over a period of 4 years I would have 2.5K Euro a year in my pocket for petrol. If I take petrol price at 1.3, this would give me 1923l of petrol. Now none of the cars above are thirsty models but lets say average consumption is 7l/100km(I'm being generous here). To cover 15000km a year I would need 1050l of petrol and that leaves me with 873l which is ~1135 Euro. Service would be once a year at ~150-200 Euro. MotorTax the same as EV or a bit higher.
So if I would be able to charge EV for free I'm still better of using ICE. I would need to do high mileage 30k a year in EV to see any benefit. The problem is I would not be able to as none of them would make it from Cork to Dublin without needing to stop.
I hope I have not missed anything in my calculation but please let me know if I did.

P.S. I'm not anti EV. I will buy one as soon as it makes economical sense and once they reach the 300km range with ease.

BoatMad

reklamos wrote: »

I think the point that is being missed here is that this report taking the upfront cost of the new car.
So if I take the similar models below, EVs are ~10k more expensive to ICE.
--
Ford Focus Electric 34900
Ford Focus 1.5 25310
--
Nissan Leaf 32385
Nissan Pulsar 1.2 22290
--
VW e-up! 26900
VW up! 1.0 15805
--
VW e-Golf 34900
VW Golf 1.2 24175

This means that over a period of 4 years I would have 2.5K Euro a year in my pocket for petrol. If I take petrol price at 1.3, this would give me 1923l of petrol. Now none of the cars above are thirsty models but lets say average consumption is 7l/100km(I'm being generous here). To cover 15000km a year I would need 1050l of petrol and that leaves me with 873l which is ~1135 Euro. Service would be once a year at ~150-200 Euro. MotorTax the same as EV or a bit higher.
So if I would be able to charge EV for free I'm still better of using ICE. I would need to do high mileage 30k a year in EV to see any benefit. The problem is I would not be able to as none of them would make it from Cork to Dublin without needing to stop.
I hope I have not missed anything in my calculation but please let me know if I did.

P.S. I'm not anti EV. I will buy one as soon as it makes economical sense and once they reach the 300km range with ease.

Upfront costs are irrelevant, a Leaf can be bought new for 20K approx after subsidies, thats the cost to the user.


remember all these costs are not true costs they are all corrupted by government taxes in many forms ,

You have to take the costs that user actually pays, you can nomore ignore the 10K leaf subsidy then you can ignore the VRt on a diesel car or the tax inherent in petrol


Hence a leaf is not for example 30K and can be got easily for the price of a similar pulsar

Thats the reality

are subsidies distorting the comparison, of course , but who is to say what BEVs may cost in the future, battery prices are falling fast and more and more models are being released at all price points


The fact remains, taking a like sized car, no ICE can currently beat a Leaf for operating costs or come anywhere near it, your comparison only works because you choose to selectively ignore a Government tax reduction

given an EV is three times more efficient with the same energy , it make simple logic that it should be significantly cheaper to run.

today a EV makes great economic sense , if used within its limitations , and those limitations will be mostly gone within two years

reklamos

OK so the economic part is sorted. They need to sort the distance and I'm in

BoatMad

reklamos wrote: »

OK so the economic part is sorted. They need to sort the distance and I'm in

They are all working on it, soon my friend soon

and imagine the speed and response of an EV, any decent electric motors blows the doors off of an equivalent ICE.

the term Hot hatch will really have meaning when its a BEV

robtri

BoatMad wrote: »

You can certainly do the maths yourself , night rate is available at 7.65 cents the price of diesel and petrol are well known

currently it costs approx 1.40 per day to travel 120-150 km in a nissan Leaf, depending on how much is left each day in the battery and the style of driving

one service a year or 30k km , at approx 120 euros, essentially a simple service

tyres are at similar prices to ordinary ones, the Leaf carries no real specialist tyre anyway

brakes last longer due to regenerative braking

Charging infrastructure is currently free and no indications of what future fee regimes might be like as yet.


easy enough to do the maths

if it easy how come you missed cost of car, depreciation, and the big one battery replacement... interesting

robtri

BoatMad wrote: »

Upfront costs are irrelevan

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
funniest thing i read all day

BoatMad

robtri wrote: »

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
funniest thing i read all day

the context was in the reply that upfront costs were "before " subsidies costs

I used the term as thats the term that was used , to me actually upfront costs are what the users actually pays , but anyway its a semantic issue not a key material one

grogi

robtri wrote: »

if it easy how come you missed cost of car, depreciation, and the big one battery replacement... interesting

Create a simple table, left column a Leaf, right column a Pulsar:

- price as new
- price at 10 years
- depreciation cost
- servicing cost
- battery replacement cost

If you sum up, the overall costs of ownership will be very similar over ten years. Both will depreciate around 20k, you'll (might) need spend a couple of grand on battery, but you'll save on services (I recon one will never need to service breaks on Leaf)... Insurance will be similar, tax will be similar...

The rest is just savings and savings on petrol/diesel...

BoatMad

robtri wrote: »

if it easy how come you missed cost of car, depreciation, and the big one battery replacement... interesting

Its very hard to factor in depreciation , the evidence in Ireland is that 2nd hand leafs are holding up well , as well as their petrol counterparts.

The issue of depreciation seems to have some from the UK market , where large numbers of EVs were bought in very cheap PCPs and these have fallen in the 2nd hand market. I know that the difference is so great that several people are importing them

This I think is more a function of lots of 2nd hand EVs with not enough buyers to buy them , as the user base is not expanding quick enough

It depends own how you predict the next 5 years in EV sales, a pedestrian organic market will depress resale costs as ther will not be enough 2nd hand buyers to ensure prices hold up, on the otters hand , if you assume EV sales accelerate in the face of better running economics, increasing taxation on diesels etc then there will be a bigger cohort of 2nd hand buyers that want into the EV experience .


as for battery replacement, at present people are getting 200k Km and more form 2nd generation batteries ( 2013 onwards) and the expectation is as batteries get bigger the useable life is expanding to the point where the whole car is so low as to not worth buying a new battery

No more then Id factor in a replacement engine costs , or clutch , or half shafts or the myriad of thing that fail on ICE cars, factoring in a battery replacement , when its unlikely to happen and may in fact be quite cheap in the future is very difficult

as I say the issue is simply comparing what we know today , rather then projecting unknown issues in the future

I mean , diesels could be effectively taxed out of existence, EV subsidies could be removed , who knows , all you can do is run with todays numbers that you know.

reklamos

Looking at nissan.ie
Pulsar's RRP is 20695
Leaf's RRP 21490
So they are pretty similar. The range is a major factor.
As at the moment you'd have to do pre-journey calculation like airline pilots do.
Load of the battery - check
Wind speed - check
Weight of the load - check
Air temperature - check
etc.

I would not be willing to be in the position to say to wife... Either you take a bus or none of us going to make it...

BoatMad

grogi wrote: »

Create a simple table, left column a Leaf, right column a Pulsar:

- price as new
- price at 10 years
- depreciation cost
- servicing cost
- battery replacement cost

If you sum up, the overall costs of ownership will be very similar over ten years. Both will depreciate around 20k, you'll (might) need spend a couple of grand on battery, but you'll save on services (I recon one will never need to service breaks on Leaf)... Insurance will be similar, tax will be similar...

The rest is just savings and savings on petrol/diesel...

You cant really , because while we have plenty of data on costs and usage and maintenance and repair etc for ICEs , we have little statically relevant data from the same EV. for example batteries today in the leaf and two generations on from 2011 cars, which do you use to project forward

what will be a EV price in tens years, no-one knows , will there even be a " battery replacement " demand , again my own view is its unlikely actually , batteries will last the life of the car (I mean the current leaf has a 8 year warranty on the battery for example )

grogi

reklamos wrote: »

Looking at nissan.ie
Pulsar's RRP is 20695
Leaf's RRP 21490
So they are pretty similar. The range is a major factor.
As at the moment you'd have to do pre-journey calculation like airline pilots do.
Load of the battery - check
Wind speed - check
Weight of the load - check
Air temperature - check
etc.

I would not be willing to be in the position to say to wife... Either you take a bus or none of us going to make it...

At least have some respect to your wife...

reklamos

grogi wrote: »

At least have some respect to your wife...

I took the easy option otherwise I would have to ask her to choose between the kids

BoatMad

reklamos wrote: »

Looking at nissan.ie
Pulsar's RRP is 20695
Leaf's RRP 21490
So they are pretty similar. The range is a major factor.
As at the moment you'd have to do pre-journey calculation like airline pilots do.
Load of the battery - check
Wind speed - check
Weight of the load - check
Air temperature - check
etc.

I would not be willing to be in the position to say to wife... Either you take a bus or none of us going to make it...

I know you are being funny

each morning my wife gets out of bed, and like magic , there the car ready and waiting to go, she never has to waste time in a filing station , She has a 130km round trip , which the 30Kwh Leaf handles with ease , returning with enough juice to bop into the nearest town ( 10 Km away ) etc , if she wishes

She gets up to a car pre-warmed , seats heated , aircon and heating have brought the cabin up to temperature and reported its status to her iPhone app as she's munches her cornflakes

Her journey is on a new motorway in a quietness unheard of in any other car this side of a rolls royce.

She has the low end acceleration of a GTI when she needs it and all the mods cons of modern car and plenty of space to boot.


We have put more miles on this car then any ICE we have ever owned in such a short space of time , its so popular

Is it perfect , no , but range is the ONLY issue that affects normal ownership , but that only affects you if you have a journey that stresses the current range

everything else on the other hand is better.

You cant ignore it , the magic of ICE is the fuel, the magic of the EV is the electric motor , an electric motor always beats the 19th century bag of bolts that is an ICE. however the fuel cannot be made better, but batteries can and are doing so .

The end result is predictable, the world will drive electric motors !!!:)

robtri

BoatMad wrote: »

I know you are being funny

each morning my wife gets out of bed, and like magic , there the car ready and waiting to go, she never has to waste time in a filing station , She has a 130km round trip , which the 30Kwh Leaf handles with ease , returning with enough juice to bop into the nearest town ( 10 Km away ) etc , if she wishes

She gets up to a car pre-warmed , seats heated , aircon and heating have brought the cabin up to temperature and reported its status to her iPhone app as she's munches her cornflakes

Her journey is on a new motorway in a quietness unheard of in any other car this side of a rolls royce.

She has the low end acceleration of a GTI when she needs it and all the mods cons of modern car and plenty of space to boot.


We have put more miles on this car then any ICE we have ever owned in such a short space of time , its so popular

Is it perfect , no , but range is the ONLY issue that affects normal ownership , but that only affects you if you have a journey that stresses the current range

everything else on the other hand is better.

You cant ignore it , the magic of ICE is the fuel, the magic of the EV is the electric motor , an electric motor always beats the 19th century bag of bolts that is an ICE. however the fuel cannot be made better, but batteries can and are doing so .

The end result is predictable, the world will drive electric motors !!!:)

not everyone wants zero noise..... some people like the sound of a petrol engine purring...

the acceleration of a GTI??? the leaf is just above 10 seconds for 0-60...
a GTI would should be in the 6 to 8 second ... eg. the golf GTI is around 6.5 seconds...

the magic of petrol and diesel is right now they fullfill more than the EV does for most people.

electric is the future... but this is the PRESENT and the average EV is just not as good for most people as a petrol/diesel

fuel cannot be made better... again more hogwash..... Petrol and diesel vehicles are constantly becoming more and more efficient and less polluting, other liquid fuels are like electric, being researched more.. eg hydrogen, bio fuels. Hydrogen is a possible fuel of the future...

BoatMad

robtri wrote: »

not everyone wants zero noise..... some people like the sound of a petrol engine purring...

the acceleration of a GTI??? the leaf is just above 10 seconds for 0-60...
a GTI would should be in the 6 to 8 second ... eg. the golf GTI is around 6.5 seconds...

the magic of petrol and diesel is right now they fullfill more than the EV does for most people.

electric is the future... but this is the PRESENT and the average EV is just not as good for most people as a petrol/diesel

fuel cannot be made better... again more hogwash..... Petrol and diesel vehicles are constantly becoming more and more efficient and less polluting, other liquid fuels are like electric, being researched more.. eg hydrogen, bio fuels. Hydrogen is a possible fuel of the future...

you need to drive a leaf to see how the acceleration is fed in, I have owned several very fast cars, ( 911, 300 zx, 200 sx, gti, bmw 325) , you cannot actually extract the 0-60 in anything like the stated figures, in an electric car you stomp the pedal and the motor with its flat torque curve does the rest , remember an ICE has zero torque at zero speed, a electric motor has 100% . Yes the GTI will quickly pass you after a while etc etc ,

But then again remember a leaf is throttled back, take the i3 for a spin, !!!!

power for power a electric motors ALWAY will outperform an ICE


as for

Petrol and diesel vehicles are constantly becoming more and more efficient and less pollutin

Yes there are incremental gains in ICE , very small incremental gains, and its getting more and more difficult for example to build diesels with cleaner emissions

There is in evolutionary terms little left in the ICE

and its not hogwash, I said that there is nothing much that can be done too improve THE FUEL, and an electric motor is 3 times more efficient then an ICE ( it matters not WHAT you do with an ICE, the laws of thermodynamics cannot be overridden)

in an ICE the magic ingredient is the fuel, with an enormous KW/KG density , better then dynamite , the best experimental batteries are at half the KW/Kg of fuel at present , BUT they are progressing and will match it within 10 years , add then a 3 times more efficient motor ( and read that as faster and better) and you have a combination no ICE can touch

theres a reason the steam engine disappeared , efficiency and operating envelope being the main ones, the ICE will disappear for the same reasons

Yes , its not there today , but its damm close , we have 250 mile teslas , we have a 60kwh Leaf in 2018 with a claimed 400 km range etc etc

we have new models from a host of major car companies , and companies like VW betting the farm on electric

as for

not everyone wants zero noise..... some people like the sound of a petrol engine purring...

you can easily add a speaker to an EV , in fact engine noise will be compulsory in 2019 at slow speeds

Hydrogen is a possible fuel of the future...

its the betamax of private propulsion, by the time anything remotely resembling a affordable private car is introduced the BEV will be all over the place and will be the VHS of cars. Hydrogen currently is a fossil fuel anyway as its derived from crude oil gas. The fuel cell may have applications in large prime movers like ships, but not in cars. its like saying " fusion " is the future of electricity generation , true but nit today tomorrow, or next century and its trotted out by anti BEV- to muddy the waters , anyway a fuel cell car is a EV as well of course

jimgoose

josip

reklamos wrote: »

I would not be willing to be in the position to say to wife... Either you take a bus or none of us going to make it...

Brilliant, so many emotional conflicts in one sentence that the average family man deals with on a regular basis.

My wife is tickety-boo at filling up occasionally with diesel at Enfield for her daily trips from Dublin to the midlands. But I would not be willing to tell her that with an EV that her precious midweek time with the kids will be reduced by at least an hour.

Also, would she be able to keep up 120kph all the way in an EV at the moment? A few weeks ago a (10.1) Leaf in front of us at Cherrywood swapped lanes and used its GTI-like performance to make it through a red. 4 minutes later our (8.3) oil burner passed it pottering along the M50 doing around 100 in a 120 zone. Does the range drop off markedly above 100 or summat?

It'll take a lot of years for EVs to replace the entrenched diesel market here in Ireland.

http://www.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-news/revealed-secondhand-cars-people-want-most-and-the-ones-that-are-shifting-the-quickest-34723597.html