EPA says Volkswagen cheated on emissions with 482,000 diesel cars

josip

samih wrote: »

The Dutch/Norwegian target of 2025 to ban the petrol/diesel cars looks very doable at this stage. In Norway, even today you would have to be a "fossil" not to buy a Tesla Model S instead of one of conventional luxury sedans.

How does Norway afford the subsidies and incentives that it provides to EVs?

Falcon L

josip wrote: »

How does Norway afford the subsidies and incentives that it provides to EVs?

Well managed oil money I reckon.

josip

Falcon L wrote: »

Well managed oil money I reckon.

Does it make sense then to espouse the Norwegian EV model when it's reliant on the oil industry?

BoatMad

Falcon L wrote: »

Well managed oil money I reckon.

Norway is post oil , 100% of its energy generation is renewable ( wind and hydro)

josip

BoatMad wrote: »

Norway is post oil , 100% of its energy generation is renewable ( wind and hydro)

Is it surplus revenue from this renewable energy generation that funds the EV subsidies?

BoatMad

josip wrote: »

Is it surplus revenue from this renewable energy generation that funds the EV subsidies?

just money from the general tax take

Falcon L

BoatMad wrote: »

Norway is post oil , 100% of its energy generation is renewable ( wind and hydro)

Norway exported over USD90bn in petroleum products last year. That's a lot of money. I'm sure some of it goes to subsidise EVs.

josip

BoatMad wrote: »

just money from the general tax take

Why don't other countries give the same amount of subsidies to EVs?

BoatMad

Falcon L wrote: »

Norway exported over USD90bn in petroleum products last year. That's a lot of money. I'm sure some of it goes to subsidise EVs.

Norway is of course a wealthy country but in fact , Ireland actually at present has far more subsidies for EVs then Norway

josip

BoatMad wrote: »

Norway is of course a wealthy country but in fact , Ireland actually at present has far more subsidies for EVs then Norway

So why isn't the Model S the best selling car here then as it is in Norway?

BoatMad

josip wrote: »

So why isn't the Model S the best selling car here then as it is in Norway?

because Tesla never set up here and are only doing that now, with plans to build 3 super chargers ( as well as the late arrival of RHD teslas )

Irelands small population is a major factor as is the fact that we have one of the highest mileages per capita in the developed world , even greater then the US

thats why diesels are so popular here

stesaurus

It's not on sale here yet officially but either way we're quite a conservative country in general. Most people dismiss EV's without even looking into the facts.

josip

BoatMad wrote: »

Irelands small population is a major factor as is the fact that we have one of the highest mileages per capita in the developed world , even greater then the US

Our population is 4.59 million, Norway's 5.08

Where do you get your mileage per capita figures from?
I've been unable to find any recent ones for Ireland and Norway.
The best I can find is 14,000/17,000 per annum per car for petrol/diesel in 2012 in Ireland
The 2015 figure for Norway is 9,500/13,000/15,500 for petrol/EV/diesel
US seems to be 15,000 per capita

(Sources)
http://nmr.ie/2012/02/average-mileage-in-ireland-2012/
http://www.consumerhelp.ie/car-clocking
https://www.ssb.no/en/transport-og-reiseliv/statistikker/klreg/aar/2016-04-22
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/transport/data/main-tables
http://alankandel.scienceblog.com/2014/02/07/annual-per-capita-california-driving-1-5-times-the-national-average/

s.welstead wrote: »

It's not on sale here yet officially but either way we're quite a conservative country in general. Most people dismiss EV's without even looking into the facts.

I've looked into the facts and EVs are not a viable option for our family at present.

Special Circumstances

josip wrote: »

So why isn't the Model S the best selling car here then as it is in Norway?

Irish public prefer less torque with more clatter?

stesaurus

josip wrote: »

I've looked into the facts and EVs are not a viable option for us at present.

At least you did look into it. They're not for everyone but I just don't understand why someone looking for a new car doesn't at least run the numbers and take a test drive.

samih

Special Circumstances wrote: »

josip wrote: »

So why isn't the Model S the best selling car here then as it is in Norway?

Irish public prefer less torque with more clatter?

Tesla Model S only costs about half or one third in Norway compared to equivalent ICE due to high taxes on latter. Most of the E-Golf sales in the world happen to Norway due to same. They also import lots of used Leafs from US.

BoatMad

josip wrote: »

Our population is 4.59 million, Norway's 5.08

Where do you get your mileage per capita figures from?
I've been unable to find any recent ones for Ireland and Norway.
The best I can find is 14,000/17,000 per annum per car for petrol/diesel in 2012 in Ireland
The 2015 figure for Norway is 9,500/13,000/15,500 for petrol/EV/diesel
US seems to be 15,000 per capita

I came across 2014 figures but I cant find the reference, diesel owners in Ireland do approx 14,900 KM per annum , whilst US drivers do approx 13 500 Km , with 70% diesel ownership here thats the majority of users ( mileage fell in the western world during the recent recession

Teslas in Ireland suffered because firstly , RHD Tesals took a long time to arrive, and Tesla Ireland is effectively administered from Tesla UK and was way down on their priority list

secondly the Norwegian government has a sustained and well thought out plan to have the majority of cars on its roads EVs and it went about it in a planned and concerted way , unlike the piece meal and haphazard way it was done here

The second thing is that VRT costs on expensive cars like a Tesla , then make the car very expensive. The irish Gov should waive all VRT on BEVs and allow no subsidies on PHEVS and hybrids in my view

I've looked into the facts and EVs are not a viable option for us at present.

indeed , its not a solution that fits everyone


IN my case the monthly mileage saving is in effect covering the monthly costs of a new car, hence I have a new car for the cost of a deposit , that in itself wouldn't buy a decent 2nd hand diesel car

samih

josip wrote: »

samih wrote: »

The Dutch/Norwegian target of 2025 to ban the petrol/diesel cars looks very doable at this stage. In Norway, even today you would have to be a "fossil" not to buy a Tesla Model S instead of one of conventional luxury sedans.

How does Norway afford the subsidies and incentives that it provides to EVs?

It's a National strategy which makes sense due to 100 percent renewable electricity generation. Paradoxically, oil exports are used there to subsidize the move to post oil. It's a marked difference to say Venezuela which subsidizes local oil usage whereas the Norwegian government invest the profits from the oil exports to prepare for the inevitable.

colm_mcm

lol

Atlantic Dawn

First case lodged in Ireland....

A claim for damages against Volkswagen following last year's emissions controversy has been before Castlebar District Court.

In the first case of its kind in the country, Eithne Higgins of Croghan, Boyle, Co Roscommon, is seeking compensation after the carmaker admitted cheating on emissions tests last year.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0527/791454-volkswagen-court-castlebar/

BoatMad

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

First case lodged in Ireland....



http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0527/791454-volkswagen-court-castlebar/

I can't see how she can win this case. Nobody has stated that VW falsified the European nedc test , unlike the American situation.

pablo128

BoatMad wrote: »

I can't see how she can win this case. Nobody has stated that VW falsified the European nedc test , unlike the American situation.

Why are they recalling cars in Ireland then if there's no issue with them?

BoatMad

pablo128 wrote: »

Why are they recalling cars in Ireland then if there's no issue with them?

To my knowledge , VW are replacing the air mass sensor shroud , because it was not accurate enough

They have never admitted tests were falsified in Europe , nor has any of the testing houses issued statements saying thAt in their expert opinion the tests they conducted were falsified. There have been third party claims , but nothing has ever been substantiated.

Merely because a car company does a recall , does not entitle you to sure them.

grogi

BoatMad wrote: »

I can't see how she can win this case. Nobody has stated that VW falsified the European nedc test , unlike the American situation.

a) They did not falsify EPA consumption figures as well.

b) The case - she might have stocks - and because the criminal activity of VW, she did loose money on those stocks.

BoatMad

grogi wrote: »

a) They did not falsify EPA consumption figures as well.

b) The case - she might have stocks - and because the criminal activity of VW, she did loose money on those stocks.

Sorry. The CARB and the EPA carried out specific tests and laid a claim at VWs door that it used its software to falsify the EPA test. VW then admitted it did so.

VW have admitted the same software is present in certain Euro models, however the key difference , is that no-one in a competent position to do so , has claimed they falsified the NEDC tests nor has VW ever admitted it falsified those tests

( they didn't need, the nedc test is not difficult to pass, being over twice as lenient as the Californian one.

R.O.R

pablo128 wrote: »

Why are they recalling cars in Ireland then if there's no issue with them?

They arent recalling cars in Ireland.

pablo128

R.O.R wrote: »

They arent recalling cars in Ireland.

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiaw9iI2PzMAhWmBcAKHVNuBQUQFgg7MAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thejournal.ie%2Fvolkswagen-golf-recall-starting-ireland-2740800-Apr2016%2F&usg=AFQjCNFZOlAblZRDWHrY1Q4N4bXGbHCbqg&sig2=YBOJN7mV7dBkiO6qhtio4w&bvm=bv.123325700,d.ZGg

GERMAN CAR MANUFACTURER Volkswagen has begun its recall of cars in Ireland, starting with the two litre Golf TDI Blue Motion model.
VW has started recalling the affected cars in Europe to replace the rogue software, known as “defeat devices” because they deliberately skew a car’s emissions when undergoing testing.
It announced that owners of Golf TDI models could start phoning in for re-fitting appointments at their local garage as from today.
In Europe around 15,000 Golf cars affected with a manual gearbox are being called to workshops. Further Volkswagen passenger car brand models will follow in the recall process.

grogi

BoatMad wrote: »

Sorry. The CARB and the EPA carried out specific tests and laid a claim at VWs door that it used its software to falsify the EPA test. VW then admitted it did so.

VW have admitted the same software is present in certain Euro models, however the key difference , is that no-one in a competent position to do so , has claimed they falsified the NEDC tests nor has VW ever admitted it falsified those tests

( they didn't need, the nedc test is not difficult to pass, being over twice as lenient as the Californian one.

They were faking, but the emissions, not the consumptions.

BoatMad

grogi wrote: »

They were faking, but the emissions, not the consumptions.

Sorry , your sentence makes no sense

BoatMad

grogi wrote: »

a) They did not falsify EPA consumption figures as well.

You clearly have not followed the sequence of events.

In the US , the following happened

1. A test on NOX emmisions carried out in Europe , which showed up to 40 times test emissions were being generated on road
2. A partial re test of similar models was then run in the US in the expectation that the higher standards there, would show better on road enmisuins , this was shown to be surprisingly a false assumption

3. The CARB, allerted by the test results , then reran the EPA test suite on a selected set of cars. ( in the US unlike Europe EPA tests are self certified by the manufacturer )

4. In so doing , the CARB , alleged that VW cars tested were incapable of passing the test , particularly when subjected to repeated cycling of a particular party of the EPA test suite.

5. The EPA suspend VW import license, until the received a credible answer , first VW retrofitted new software , which while better , still failed to satisfy the CARB . CARB testing never actually discovered any software nor verified its existence , it's was purely a self admission by VW.

6. In response to repeated requests to provide a solution that passed the tests , VW then admitted to the presence of software that attempted to detect the EPA test suite and reduce enmissions

7. CARB and the EPA on the back of that self admission , then alleged that contrary to US law , VW had fitted a "defeat device " in the form of software

8. VW admitted that European engines( and others ) also contained the same software

9. However in Europe , the NEDC test , while done under the manufacturers supervision, is performed by independent test houses certified by the EU for the purposes of testing vehicles to the NEDC

10. No such test house , unlike in the USA , has come forth to state that they believed VW cheated the test. Nor have VW in Europe ever claimed they falsified or gamed the test

It should be noted that no independent body has even stated the " defeat software " even exists, ie no one has inspected the ecu source code to very VW claims , I find this extremely suspicious. Even Bosch , despite being widely misquoted , stated they did not include any such code in its supplied ecu. .

Personally , I have argued here that VW " invented " the software , merely to avoid the more fundamental issue that in the US, it knew that the engines could not pass the EPA limits and in fact must have certified its internal EPA compliance tests fraudulently,

Europe , with its much lower standards on emissions , never needed VW to cheat anyway.

Note that the " scandal " is about NOX emmisions , not fuel consumption
It's worth pointing out , that there is no limit to what an engine can put out while on the road , the emmisions limit relate solely to the NEDC laboratory test process