Heat Recovery Ventilation,the best DIY project..."probably" !

rolion

CitizenFloor wrote: »

I started another thread in relation to DIYing an MVHR, and Part F certification - https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058056735

I didn't realise it was discussed here previously. I have put a deposit down on a Unit, and planning to DIY in the next few weeks....

Is it definitive that if I have the company commission it, I can get my Part F cert, assuming its installed correctly etc.

The language does seem to be open to interpretation.

I dont have an answer,sorry.

What can i share is following:

I did my house DIY system...got external insulation done by myself,cheap labour and with best materials out there in the trade shops.
Got lots of improvements inside the house.

The HRV has a technical listed performance of 90% in the manual.
When i did my house BER for grants, shown that to the evaluator and he didnt believed it. Shown the temperatures graphs in the photos,the real reading from that day and he still said hmmm cannot believe it i need to check it.

Did replaced the radiators and got DIY ground floor underfloor heating.

Did solar tubes on the roof.

Had the invoices from the shops for the insulation materials and the parameters for them.All the invoices for the all workings carried DIY and associated technical materials used in the work.

In the end ,he said he cannot believe the paper and the work is done as DIY.
He fcuked my BER rather than A3 to a B1 and ran out.

Im not selling my house soon,maybe never but thats the reality that can get you affected there, with guys pushing pens and automated reporting software ...

randombar

rolion wrote: »

I dont have an answer,sorry.

What can i share is following:

I did my house DIY system...got external insulation done by myself,cheap labour and with best materials out there in the trade shops.
Got lots of improvements inside the house.

The HRV has a technical listed performance of 90% in the manual.
When i did my house BER for grants, shown that to the evaluator and he didnt believed it. Shown the temperatures graphs in the photos,the real reading from that day and he still said hmmm cannot believe it i need to check it.

Did replaced the radiators and got DIY ground floor underfloor heating.

Did solar tubes on the roof.

Had the invoices from the shops for the insulation materials and the parameters for them.All the invoices for the all workings carried DIY and associated technical materials used in the work.

In the end ,he said he cannot believe the paper and the work is done as DIY.
He fcuked my BER rather than A3 to a B1 and ran out.

Im not selling my house soon,maybe never but thats the reality that can get you affected there, with guys pushing pens and automated reporting software ...

How did you do the DIY underfloor? A big regret of mine not putting that in.

rolion

GaryCocs wrote: »

How did you do the DIY underfloor? A big regret of mine not putting that in.

Good question !!! Ahhaaaa,very messy and hard lesson but i really enjoy it.

Wife complained that floor very cold.
We had timber floor already in place but fitted floating over the ground concrete floor,with little or no insulation at all...freezing fcukign cold.

She left for a 3 weeks holiday. Time to do my way...

So... i used the old 22mm floors as base.
Ran a 22 foils 17mm insulation foil (aluminium and bubble wrapped thermo insulation foil,very expensive).
Over the foil, fitted a 24mm OSB board which had the channels routed for the 12mm ufh piping.
Over that,fitted some heat wings to disipate the piping heat.
Over the piping, i fitted 22mm natural wood approved for ufh.

Messy but i know i did it myself.

I will not have a home these days without ufh at the ground level...
There are easier ways of doing it these days, with a special plastic mesh that has already the routes for the pipe clip on system.

burdburd

Partial HRV

Any thoughts on doing a single floor ?

I live in an old (solid wall), 3 storey, mid terrace house where the top floor has 3 x bedrooms and a shower room. all these room have or are being insulated and sealed. currently no Vents of any description in any rooms but all have access to attic above so ducting easy.

Considering a 4 room installation to provide fresh warmed air to 3 x beds and extract damp/warm air from Shower room.

Possible stretch to box in duct to middle floor below where there is another bedroom, shower room and an office room.

Objective is to vent stale/humid/Co2 air and provide fresh air to sleeping rooms.

AMontague

How does a whole house HRV system compare to installing Single Room HRV in every room. For example the Suedwind Ambientika Solo costs about €350, so for six rooms in my house it would cost €2,100 plus installation.

What would be the downside to installing a number of Single Room HRVs in the house, compared to a Multi-room system?

garo

You’ll need to find six inlets/outlets. And there may be balancing issues.

Water John

AMontague wrote: »

How does a whole house HRV system compare to installing Single Room HRV in every room. For example the Suedwind Ambientika Solo costs about €350, so for six rooms in my house it would cost €2,100 plus installation.

What would be the downside to installing a number of Single Room HRVs in the house, compared to a Multi-room system?

That's an interesting bit of kit. Wonder could it be used in a classroom situation to help with the ventilation ATM, instead of opening windows and freezing everyone?
Seems to be €299 + shipping on their own site.
https://www.suedwind.it/en/shop/ambientika-solo-kopie

AMontague

This product will supply 60m3 of ventilation per hour. The recommendation is for 25-50m3 per person per hour. So I don’t know that this would give enough ventilation for a classroom. Probably better than nothing.

It would be worthwhile getting a CO2 monitor for your classroom to give an indication of how well the classroom is ventilated. CO2 levels of 800ppm are good. When it starts getting above 1,500ppm the ventilation levels are not good enough. I’ve found the Netatmo CO2 monitor very useful.

garo

This does look interesting for a domestic setting. I assume it can be fitted in existing ventilation holes in the wall?

AMontague

A standard vent is 4 inches, this vent is 6 inches, so needs a bit of work to drill a bigger vent.

I installed a similar device from Kair in my bathroom a few years ago. Works very well. The Ambientika looks better again.

Alun

Someone I know forwarded this on to me the other day. Available in both 4 and 6 inch versions.

[snip]

garo

Thanks. Not many details on the website.This is the product:
https://www.idealclima.eu/en/recuperatori-puntuali-kers/kers
Unfortunately Italian only.

Alun

garo wrote: »

Thanks. Not many details on the website.This is the product:
https://www.idealclima.eu/en/recuperatori-puntuali-kers/kers
Unfortunately Italian only.

He's going to get the technical stuff off the distributors for me. I'll post it up here if I can get it in machine readable form, and if I remember, of course!

Mickeroo

Alun wrote: »

He's going to get the technical stuff off the distributors for me. I'll post it up here if I can get it in machine readable form, and if I remember, of course!

Lunos are another brand that do something similar. We have a couple of their extractors in the en suite and bathroom and they're great.

Google LUNOS E² and you should see an Irish site that sells them, bit pricey though at about €1500 for a pair.

garo

Alun wrote: »

He's going to get the technical stuff off the distributors for me. I'll post it up here if I can get it in machine readable form, and if I remember, of course!

Use Google to translate the page I linked. it has loads of tech data. Two systems with 24 and 50 m3/h flow rate. Efficiency 80 and 90% heat recovery at delta T of 13 degrees. 5W electricity consumption. 38 and 45dB sound.

It is pricy though. Hard to find and the only prices I found on an Italian price comparison site was 450 for the 50 m3/h unit.

Markcheese

Alun wrote: »

Someone I know forwarded this on to me the other day. Available in both 4 and 6 inch versions.

[snip]

Would one of those be needed in every room ? Or just the main ones ? ( Kitchen ,living ,bathroom ,maybe a central hall )?

garo

Just the main ones would be enough I imagine. There will be circulation within the house.

loyatemu

I have 2 bedrooms with mould problems, vapour condensing on a cold gable wall basically. Would fitting these provide sufficient ventilation?
I was also looking at PIV (Drimaster) - any thoughts on one versus the other?

Biker1

The problem with PIV is that it pushes the moisture into the fabric of the building. Not exactly ventilation!!

loyatemu

Biker1 wrote: »

The problem with PIV is that it pushes the moisture into the fabric of the building. Not exactly ventilation!!

I've read that (possibly from yourself) - but the building is far from airtight.

SemperFidelis

We had major mold issue when we moved into a 1970s bungalow a few years ago, mold under babies cot, behind wardrobe on gable wall etc. I put in PIV and it made a big difference. It didn't completely eliminate the mold but did reduce it significantly. I eventually put in MVHR and now its no longer an issue.

randombar

So finally finished the installation, I've a couple of more rooms to do downstairs when I manage to get access to them but 90% complete and system running.

https://go.init.st/ei11bvg

So far so good, the moisture extraction is unreal, we used to have water dripping down the walls in the shower room but now the mirror barely gets fogged up.

Hard to tell temperature wise because of the changing weather but I reckon there's a degree difference upstairs now we don't have to open the windows.

listermint

Ah found this thread. Just wanted to resurrect it. And say Rolion you're a very much missed account. Lots of things tried and tested and pushing things to make your home better.

It was reading this thread many years ago that put MHRV into my mind back when it was in its infancy and there was major snark about doing it DIY.

Just wanted folks to know this is very much doable DIY, there are plenty of 'builders' trained putting these in badly all over the place with zero real understanding of the technology or how it should fit into your home. There are absolutely great companies installing them too. There are also great places doing supply and design.

I had mine supplied by one such company, I fitted it, I spent a unbelievable level of detail insuring it was correct and tbh i think a skilled homeowner will get a higher standard of final finish as its yours and not to a clock.

Mine is due to be commissioned next week. I've already done balancing myself using a thermal anemometer, which came within 5 percent of my intial estimate calculations . But I want the final finessing done by someone with volume and pressure tools who does it daily and can double check the work.

In terms of regs. They're very much focused on min volum rates for types of room and little else on top. People can go above and beyond and should. You'll get better long term comfort in your home and more real quality airflow.

We've dropped over 25 percent humidity over the week and with my balancing it dropped more.

I saw some queries in old threads about outside smells. It was a concern of mine, but we back on to some dairy pastures and also dairy sheds and last few weeks has been spreading season. Nothing in the house. Outside has that nice sharp up the nose smell :) the filters in action.

If you are designing one try your best to keep the exhaust and supplies min 2 M apart and ideally the supply side should be shaded from any sun. Its best placed on the side of the house which gets the least temperature range movements. I was careful about that. I've been spending two weeks like a plank going in checking the panel controls to see how it's going to get more understand of its operation over days. Have to run some Cat5 to it for the router for remote control. Just ran out of a reel.

Joy !

But thanks Rolion. People like yourself make forums interesting. Shame your account is closed.

the_amazing_raisin

This thread sounds like the one I've been looking for my whole life 🤣

So regarding the external vents, has anyone had any success (or failure) reusing existing roof vents? I've 2 vents in my roof, one on the north face and one on the south face.

At the moment each of them is for a bathroom extractor fan. What I'm thinking is to reuse them for an MHRV

Personally I would favour putting the intake on the south side, even though it'll be pulling in warm air. There's a lot of wind in my area and I'm concerned putting the exhaust into the prevailing wind would cause the fans to struggle to push the air out the vent

Anyone got any thoughts on this?

spose

The bathroom extractors are probably only 4 inch and won’t be big enough to use for hrv. I wouldn’t worry too much about direction of vents. I can’t see if having much of an impact on the air temperature of the intake air given it’s a pretty large flow rate

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120288217#Comment_120288217

I had this thought initially, The MHRV extracts and supplies are usually 180-200mm Diameter, Your typical extractor vents are 100-110mm, depending on country of origin. You can obviously get reducers etc that can 'make it work' But that is exactly what you would be doing 'making it work' .

I changed tack on the original idea of going straight up and out the roof from the unit for these reasons.

1- The sizing would be different and it would reduce into the vent cover

2- The vent covers are by their nature more restricted than a horizontal vent as they have to manage water ingress so the covers restrict airflow.

3- The vertical nature of those shafts coupled with the restrictions above most likely mean you will get more condensing the the exchaust duct than you would normally get introducing more water back into the system (yes this is piped out usually but you should want to get it out of the house via air if you can.

4- Using the roof for any purpose opens up the potential for water ingress, It gets more impacted by weather and sun and can result in poor sealing and eventual water penetration. Its probably not worth the potential in long term maintenance.

Finally, Yes you should always look for your supply to be in the least temperature impacted side of your house. That is out of direct sunlight. As everyone knows standing in a front garden in summer versus standing in the shaded back garden of the house can have a large difference in temperature. So your supply should be maintained in the shaded location if at all possible. These little tweaks in your design of a system add up to an overall more efficient long term and lower cost operation of your system.

the_amazing_raisin

Thanks guys, sounds like the drawbacks of repurposing the roof vents would probably outweigh the benefits

Looking at BPC ventilation it seems like the MHRV vents are a lot bigger than a bathroom extractor

The general advice seems to be that intake and exhaust should be on different aspects of the house. With my house this would probably mean at least one roof vent

I see there's a stacked type you can get, I wonder if this could replace an existing vent of the hole was widened 🤔

Anyone got any thoughts on the stacked type exhaust?

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120297700#Comment_120297700

Yes they are a reasonable option, albeit quite expensive (i found) for what they are. You dont them to be in different aspects btw, just min 2 meters apart to prevent cross contamination.

DC999

Reminds me of a brand new building I worked in a few years ago. 6 storey job on the Quays beside Point Depot. Was a rank smell on the floor that I worked on for months, but wasn’t there all the time. Floor had maybe 150-200 people. Those type of large new building don’t have windows that open, all internal airflow. What we were told (though we didn’t get the full story) was the intake from the roof for our floor was being contaminated by an outflow when the wind blew a certain way. Both were on the roof. So the design sucked!! Was a mild sewer-type smell. Which they tried to mask with a lot of air fresheners.

To be fair, I’m sure the airflow is very unpredictable at height in a city. And being beside the Liffey, which is it’s own wind tunnel at times, would add to that. Plus there are other large buildings side by side. They won’t share designs with each other I'd guess. Each is built by it’s own developer. So could easily get an outflow from a neighbouring building feeding your inflow.

You don’t want that effluent smell at home 😊

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120299116#Comment_120299116

Did we work for the same company? My former employer literally had the exact same problem in one of the buildings and it was in that area

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120299116#Comment_120299116

Could have been sewerage riser right beside the intake. In which case rubbish architects.

denismc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120286319#Comment_120286319

Can you let us know the name of the company that supplied and commissioned your system? PM is probably best.

Thanks

steamdave

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120296871#Comment_120296871

I must be missing something. MHRV takes in fresh air for living rooms and bedrooms and this is warmed by the exhaled stale air from kitchens, bathrooms, etc. This being the case, surely the potential warmer air from the south side of the building would be of benefit.

OK, in warmer weather this may be considered an inconvenience, but most MHRVs have a change over so that if the air temperature is warmer in the house compared to outside, the flow is reversed. Mine (Vent Axia Kinetic) certainly does.

I will admit that the installer was a bit of a cowboy with some of the positioning of the vents in the house. The supply and extract vents are positioned under the overhanging eaves, both on the south side and about 5 metres apart. Sheltered yes, so not worried about potential water ingress. Condensate goes out with the exhaust air.

Dave

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120321808#Comment_120321808

I guess the worry is that during a hot spell the summer bypass wouldn't be effective since it's basically pulling in air at 20C, and the intake pipe would probably be warmed by the sun. So having it in shade would make it more effective

By comparison since the idea in winter is to not lose heat from the house, and outside it's probably around 6C anyway then there's probably not much advantage to any solar gains

That's just my opinion however, if it's working fine for you then it's probably okay

SchrodingersCat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120286319#Comment_120286319

Same, I found Rolions DIY threads a pleasure to read. He wasnt afraid of taking large projects head-on.

ColemanY2K

Currently building a house and doing a DIY on the MVHR system. The lads in Larne as many would know supplied a Salda passive house certified unit and the rest of the kit at a very reasonable price (approx half the price of other PH units).

It's a bungalow which should make things easier. Told the blocklayer to leave gaps in the top row of internal walls so that the ducting can take the most direct route to/from rooms served. Will have the intake on north face and extract on west face of house, approx 4m apart.

The whole system will be inside the thermal envelope with the unit situated over the washing machine in the utility.

Will post up more pics and a summary of lessons learnt when I finish the job.

The next challenge is getting hold of a suitable MVHR anemometer but will worry about that in a month or so when installation is complete.

odise

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/115003713#Comment_115003713

Hi Alun please see link to the KERSEVO units which Precision Heating are main suppliers here in Ireland www.precisionheating.ie

Shoog

I am about to do this on a semi-detached we are currently buying. Will be using a Ventaxia low carbon Kinetic BH for the main unit and will likely end up getting the lads at www.ventilationsupplies.ie to design the duct work so I can get it certified at some point in the future.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120925941#Comment_120925941

Note I've found certifications to be lack lustre here as 'someone else designed it' is a frequent response. Which is their perogative I'm sure, but also silly turning down money to balance and certify a system . Especially at the quote prices to just balance it.

I've it all balanced though myself and mines running fantastic for me. Delighted with the outcome.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120926100#Comment_120926100

Its the problem with all certification systems in Ireland - no one wants to certify someone else work since all liability passes to them. The issue is that it is part of planning regs that they have to be certified so on resale you hit problems if you can't show the cert. There is no way that I am going to pay some cowboys €3K to install a simple enough system like that. However showing your calculations to prove its complient is the tricky bit and that is why I will get the supplier to do my design.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120926144#Comment_120926144

I can put money down there will be no problem selling a house with MHRV installed that doesn't have some randomers cert on it tbh. My supplier did my design BTW. It was the irish installers that were upset about even balancing someone else's design.

Doesn't bother me frankly. As I said a house will sell with or without a cert for it. Seen some of the laughable new builds installed with MV systems installed no certs and just normal BER.

Yet.... they sell in their thousands. Go figure.