US soldiers told to ignore Afghan allies raping boys

El_Duderino 09

end of the road wrote:

no they are only there to take over the drug trade so they can ultimately be the main dealer to ensure subdued population and fill the private prisons

Even if that is what they are there for, they aren't there with the expressed goal of tackling the paedophiles in the local military.

asherbassad

Hatless wrote: »

The book The Kite Runner is largely about the warped dancing boys "custom". Awfully upsetting.

It isn't. There is some mention in the book where Khaild Hosseini half-brother's son was enslaved and abused. The book is not "largely" about the dancing boys custom at all.

Paramite Pie

FTA69 wrote: »

Islam is homophobic, it doesn't promote sex with boys.

It's not seen culturally as 'gay' if the man is on top. And the boy is not yet a 'man' so it's not 'man on man' sex. Allah's loophole.

The same men involved would hang two adult men for gay sex in a heart beat.

FTA69

Paramite Pie wrote: »

It's not seen culturally as 'gay' if the man is on top. And the boy is not yet a 'man' so it's not 'man on man' sex. Allah's loophole.

The same men involved would hang two adult men for gay sex in a heart beat.

What do you mean Allah's loophole? Islam is anti-gay full stop. You're conflating religious doctrine with local Pashtun culture. This sort of carry on has nothing to do with religion full stop.

suicide_circus

My point was that the "blame America for the world's ills" line trotted out and nauseum is lazy.

Gatling

suicide_circus wrote: »

My point was that the "blame America for the world's ills" line trotted out and nauseum is lazy.

It's apparently all the rage these days funny how back in the day Afghanistan produced a fair percent of fruit and nuts for the global market .until the Russians got involved and left the country in a dire state after there conscripts got a kicking .
They just happend to leave thousands of tons of weapons and military equipment behind that led to constant conflict for the last 30+ years

asherbassad

suicide_circus wrote: »

My point was that the "blame America for the world's ills" line trotted out and nauseum is lazy.

And when a certain situation is clearly America's fault or a direct consequence of American interference, rather than accepting it people trot out the above mantra. If that's not lazy I don't know what is.

Gatling

asherbassad wrote: »

And when a certain situation is clearly America's fault or a direct consequence of American interference, rather than accepting it people trot out the above mantra. If that's not lazy I don't know what is.

Current situation in Afghanistan predates American involvement by+ 30 years

El_Duderino 09

Satan is Real wrote:

British society is sick because the judge was concerned that her prospects for arranged marriage were damaged. Arranged marriages should not be tolerated in a modern western society.

But arranged marriage is legal so why on earth would a judge be allowed to rule based on your personal opinion of the practice?

Anyway the military has a hard enough time arranging with the local commanders to get things done without arresting their people. There is no military objective at stake so the US soldiers are not the people to solve this problem, grievous as it might be

wes

Gatling wrote: »

Current situation in Afghanistan predates American involvement by+ 30 years

They were involved when the Soviets invaded, along with Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and more, to provide weapons to the Mujhadeen. Plenty of blame to go around in regard to Afghanistan. The US/UK are however, were the most recent to engage in a military misadventure, so naturally most people would be familiar with that.

As for the US/UK not intervening to prevent rape of young boys, I guess they took the real politik view, and decided not the intervene, and even if they did I doubt they could have done much to help. Its a ****ed up situation, but I think the blame really rest with Karzai and the northern alliance, who actually could have put a stop to this practice in the part of the country they control.

Gatling

wes wrote: »

They were involved when the Soviets invaded, .

Towards the end they supplied weapons in small numbers mainly the stinger missles that were used to devastating effect against Russian planes ,helicopters.

For the most part most afghans were still using ww2 issue Lee Enfield rifles
the Pakistanis were playing everyone the same to this day training and supplying the Taliban and others while claiming to be allies,
Saudis were interested in building hospitals and mosques though they did bank roll various schemes or at least individuals did to leave the Saudi royals clean .

For some reason a lot of people seem to believe America is the sole reason Afghanistan is the **** hole we know today

Paramite Pie

FTA69 wrote: »

What do you mean Allah's loophole? Islam is anti-gay full stop. You're conflating religious doctrine with local Pashtun culture. This sort of carry on has nothing to do with religion full stop.

It was a reference to the slang term 'God's Loophole' where those trying to preserve their hymen or "virginity" only engage in premarital anal sex despite Christianity (and other religions) being against anal sex itself. It's actually quite common in extremly conservative countries (allegedly) where women's bedsheets are put on display after sex to prove they were virgins beforehand. Some 'Born Again' types may also follow that principle in the West.

It's a well known Internet term of sexual hypocrisy by those who are religious (popularised by a viral video). I wasn't implying Islam condones it -- just mocking those who believe it's not a sin in Islam.

end of the road

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Even if that is what they are there for, they aren't there with the expressed goal of tackling the paedophiles in the local military.

i know. never said otherwise

El_Duderino 09

Paramite Pie wrote:

It's a well known Internet term of sexual hypocrisy by those who are religious (popularised by a viral video). I wasn't implying Islam condones it -- just mocking those who believe it's not a sin in Islam.

Also known as the 'Poop-hole loop-hole'. The practice was called 'Anything Butt' by the high schoolers who practiced it in one of those hyper religious towns in Texas, who received abstinence only sex education. I think the practice is also associated with Brazil, which has both a strong catholic ethos and appreciation for a plump be-hind

pablomakaveli

Paramite Pie wrote: »

It's not seen culturally as 'gay' if the man is on top. And the boy is not yet a 'man' so it's not 'man on man' sex. Allah's loophole.

The same men involved would hang two adult men for gay sex in a heart beat.

Also its completely normal for two men to walk around holding hands in Afghanistan. Also men ****ing goats was a common sight for soldiers in FOBs viewing the night vision cameras.

Very warped outlook on sexuality there.

Riddle101

Respect to Captain Quinn and Sgt First Class Charles Martland for actually disobeying their orders and not looking the other way. Don't think I could turn a blind eye to it myself.

El_Duderino 09

Riddle101 wrote:

Respect to Captain Quinn and Sgt First Class Charles Martland for actually disobeying their orders and not looking the other way. Don't think I could turn a blind eye to it myself.

What if it meant jeopardising the job you were sent to do? Given that it was involved acting against stated orders and the bystander effect would mean that most people would in fact do nothing.

Riddle101

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

What if it meant jeopardising the job you were sent to do? Given that it was involved acting against stated orders and the bystander effect would mean that most people would in fact do nothing.

Depends, that they did something shows that they at least stood up against the child abuse even though they risked their jobs, for that I have respect. Most people probably wouldn't do anything out of fear but for those who do, I have nothing but respect.

Massimo Cassagrande

whisky_galore wrote: »

Like it or not, these countries have operated like this for milennia. Western style 'morals' or Western law and order simply does not exist nor can it be imposed.

Cool beans. Where did they say all these new refugees were coming from again? The ones we are supposed to be welcoming with warm coats and hugs?

tomwaterford

Massimo Cassagrande wrote: »

Cool beans. Where did they say all these new refugees were coming from again? The ones we are supposed to be welcoming with warm coats and hugs?

Not Afghanistan anyway :rolleyes:

mikeym

Some sick pricks out there.


Hope they burn in hell.

El_Duderino 09

Riddle101 wrote:

Depends, that they did something shows that they at least stood up against the child abuse even though they risked their jobs, for that I have respect. Most people probably wouldn't do anything out of fear but for those who do, I have nothing but respect.

Fair enough.

What if you intervene and confront the abuser. This causes a conflict between your commanding officer and the abuser's and the result is a kind of pissing contest because their nose is out of joint because you attacked their culture. Next time your commanding officer orders the Afghans to assist you in engaging the enemy, the Afghans don't come claiming a miscommunication. The truth is that they chose to ignore their orders because you chose to ignore your orders.

end of the road

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Fair enough.

What if you intervene and confront the abuser. This causes a conflict between your commanding officer and the abuser's and the result is a kind of pissing contest because their nose is out of joint because you attacked their culture. Next time your commanding officer orders the Afghans to assist you in engaging the enemy, the Afghans don't come claiming a miscommunication. The truth is that they chose to ignore their orders because you chose to ignore your orders.

so be it i guess, its the risk you take.

El_Duderino 09

Yeah and it's a risk the military are famous for minimising by discouraging their members from using their initiative.

Can you at least see why you wouldn't be encouraged even by people who share your abhorrence of the local custom?

Riddle101

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Fair enough.

What if you intervene and confront the abuser. This causes a conflict between your commanding officer and the abuser's and the result is a kind of pissing contest because their nose is out of joint because you attacked their culture. Next time your commanding officer orders the Afghans to assist you in engaging the enemy, the Afghans don't come claiming a miscommunication. The truth is that they chose to ignore their orders because you chose to ignore your orders.

Is it a part of their culture to sexually abuse kids? Seems to me that it's more of a problem then a culture thing. In the article it says the village elders were unhappy about it, and complained to them but nothing was done. It's also illegal in Afghanistan. It looks like it has more to do with power and influence the commanders have, then it being a matter of culture.

As for the latter part of your comment. I would only hope that the Americans are well equipped during the attack so that they can do it without their assistance, but if it comes down to something like that, then it really depends how much the Afghan commanders value the American support. Would they risk the alliance themselves, and risk being taken over by the Taliban who would execute them all? Or would they really turn their backs on the Americans who have helped train their personnel, and supported them. Either way, I don't begrudge the two guys for disobeying their orders but I can see it from your point of view too. I still have respect for them though.

Turtwig

The prime directive I guess.

jank

Reminds me of this.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/184298/australian-judge-finds-muslim-cultural-differences-daniel-greenfield

Granting leave to appeal, Court of Appeal Justice Robert Redlich said: "The sentencing judge rejected any suggestion (Esmatullah Sharifi) didn't have a clear concept of consent in sexual relations."

In April last year, a psychologist told the County Court that Sharifi had "an unclear concept of what constitutes consent in sexual relationships" in Australia.

"It proves, in my view, an adequate basis for most grounds of appeal that (Sharifi) wishes to pursue," the judge said.

El_Duderino 09

Riddle101 wrote:

Is it a part of their culture to sexually abuse kids? Seems to me that it's more of a problem then a culture thing. In the article it says the village elders were unhappy about it, and complained to them but nothing was done. It's also illegal in Afghanistan. It looks like it has more to do with power and influence the commanders have, then it being a matter of culture.

Yes it's part of the local culture. It's a problem for us AND it's a part of their culture. The commanders were formerly known as War Lords in most cases. They were the people with the guns and influence before the US arrived and the US needed to keep them onside to maintain stability. The commanders don't need to be good people, they just need to be influential and cooperate.

Riddle101 wrote:

As for the latter part of your comment. I would only hope that the Americans are well equipped during the attack so that they can do it without their assistance, but if it comes down to something like that, then it really depends how much the Afghan commanders value the American support. Would they risk the alliance themselves, and risk being taken over by the Taliban who would execute them all? Or would they really turn their backs on the Americans who have helped train their personnel, and supported them. Either way, I don't begrudge the two guys for disobeying their orders but I can see it from your point of view too. I still have respect for them though.

The Afghans were notoriously unreliable early in the alliance. I don't know what they're like now. The US has enough on it's plate, herding cats into battle, without pulling the local commanders every time they do something illegal which is immaterial to the mission.

This is the kind of thing you sign up to when you decide to invade a county and rely on their warlords for stability. I can only imagine the racketeering and criminality that goes on. Either way US troops aren't there to police the local commanders.

Massimo Cassagrande

tomwaterford wrote: »

Not Afghanistan anyway :rolleyes:

No? How you know?

You sure?
Current estimates - 2.9 million Afghan refugees and 1.1 million Somalian refugees .

Might wanna unroll them old eyes there.

whisky_galore

Massimo Cassagrande wrote: »

Cool beans. Where did they say all these new refugees were coming from again? The ones we are supposed to be welcoming with warm coats and hugs?

Mainly Syria, which you may or may not have grasped, is a different country to Aghanistan.

And don't forget they have to abide by the laws of whatever country they settle in, like the rest of us.

riffmongous

riffmongous wrote: »

And you seem to have missed the point of the article, America's at fault for standing by when little boys are being raped. You know things are bad when the Taliban have moral high ground over you

No matter what America does it seems they will be castigated as the villain of the piece.

Leaving aside the argument of whether they should be there: Either they intervene, and thereby force their own Western values and cultures on to the locals, or they adopt a hands off approach and let the Afghans operate under Afghan customs.

Personally while it disgusts me, I think the American rationale was quite OK in that if the US were not there this sort of thing would be going on anyway, either behind closed doors and elsewhere.

A case of being damned if you do and damned if you don't.........if you are America.

speedboatchase

whisky_galore wrote: »

Mainly Syria, which you may or may not have grasped, is a different country to Aghanistan.

And don't forget they have to abide by the laws of whatever country they settle in, like the rest of us.

According to Eurostat's report last week on asylum applications in Europe from April-June, Afghan applications increased fourfold. They were the second largest group - behind Syrians - with 13% of all applications.

inforfun

whisky_galore wrote: »

Mainly Syria, which you may or may not have grasped, is a different country to Aghanistan.

And don't forget they have to abide by the laws of whatever country they settle in, like the rest of us.

Wouldnt take any refugee with a Syrian passport too serious anymore nowadays.

You might recognise this guy, or not. But guess who it is.

A journalist had those made after paying $500 in Turkey. These are an "official" Syrian passport and ID card.

asherbassad

Gatling wrote: »

Current situation in Afghanistan predates American involvement by+ 30 years

That's where you're wrong....as usual. Afghanistan was a secular progressive democracy in the 1950's and 1960's. This was destroyed by CIA involvement as they [the CIA] were busy destabilizing Mossadegh's Iran and Allende's Chile. The destruction of this nationalistic government was part of an overall campaign to crush any kind of popular independent movements around the world. It was at a similar time that US involvement in Vietnam to destroy any notions the Vietnamese might have had at self-determination. Following the destabilization of Afghan democracy and the toppling of the monarchy in 1973 a series of assassinations, bombings, sabotage orchestrated by CIA proxies caused the socialist government of Afghanistan to request Soviet protection in providing stability. Reluctantly Breshnev provided troops and to Zbigniew Brzezinski's delight....the CIA gave the Soviet Union "their Vietnam" by roping them into Afghanistan where the CIA could then arm and fund the Mujahideen (the forebears of Al-Qaeda and the Taliban) to wage a war of attrition against the Russians.

So get your facts right before you start re-writing history.

Gatling

asherbassad wrote: »

That's where you're wrong....as usual. Afghanistan was a secular progressive democracy in the 1950's and 1960's. This was destroyed by CIA involvement as they [the CIA] were busy destabilizing Mossadegh's Iran and Allende's Chile. The destruction of this nationalistic government was part of an overall campaign to crush any kind of popular independent movements around the world. It was at a similar time that US involvement in Vietnam to destroy any notions the Vietnamese might have had at self-determination. Following the destabilization of Afghan democracy and the toppling of the monarchy in 1973 a series of assassinations, bombings, sabotage orchestrated by CIA proxies caused the socialist government of Afghanistan to request Soviet protection in providing stability. Reluctantly Breshnev provided troops and to Zbigniew Brzezinski's delight....the CIA gave the Soviet Union "their Vietnam" by roping them into Afghanistan where the CIA could then arm and fund the Mujahideen (the forebears of Al-Qaeda and the Taliban) to wage a war of attrition against the Russians.

So get your facts right before you start re-writing history.

My facts aren't wrong .

Fact is another anti America /CIA rant is all I see how's the application coming along for assads noble peace prize

asherbassad

Gatling wrote: »

My facts aren't wrong .

Fact is another anti America /CIA rant is all I see how's the application coming along for assads noble peace prize

Your facts are miserably wrong. You even stated that US arming/funding in Afghanistan only came about towards the end of the Soviet involvement, yet Zbigniew Brezinski (US National Security Advisor) admits that it actually began before a single Soviet soldier set foot in Afghanistan.

If that isn't wrong I don't know what is.

Riddle101

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yes it's part of the local culture. It's a problem for us AND it's a part of their culture. The commanders were formerly known as War Lords in most cases. They were the people with the guns and influence before the US arrived and the US needed to keep them onside to maintain stability. The commanders don't need to be good people, they just need to be influential and cooperate.

Fair enough if it is a culture thing, but it does seem to be a problem in Afghanistan as well, and not just for us. There are people are opposed to it, but can't do anything because of the power and influence of war lords and commanders. My point is, if it wasn't for the power that commanders have, perhaps it wouldn't be so rampant.

This is the kind of thing you sign up to when you decide to invade a county and rely on their warlords for stability. I can only imagine the racketeering and criminality that goes on. Either way US troops aren't there to police the local commanders.

Perhaps not, but those troops are stationed with them, and I would imagine that all that child abuse is bad for morale among the American troops. Imagine being on one of those bases and listening to some kid getting abused by a commander, and was screaming and stuff. That type of thing can tear a person apart. So I'm not surprised that some troops have disobeyed their orders. In those situations, it's hard not to react when we're programmed to hate those kind of things.

Gatling

asherbassad wrote: »

Your facts are miserably wrong. You even stated that US arming/funding in Afghanistan only came about towards the end of the Soviet involvement, yet Zbigniew Brezinski (US National Security Advisor) admits that it actually began before a single Soviet soldier set foot in Afghanistan..

Actually your wrong again but hey someday

The US offered to train a small number of the Afghanistan army pre Russian invasion and when Russia realised they lost the afghan government they invaded and proceeded to destroy the country ,
What less than 10 us personal in Afghanistan post soviet invasion

Massimo Cassagrande

whisky_galore wrote: »

Mainly Syria, which you may or may not have grasped, is a different country to Aghanistan.

And don't forget they have to abide by the laws of whatever country they settle in, like the rest of us.

Lol..they do in their hoop. :pac: Good one!

Gatling

Massimo Cassagrande wrote: »

Lol..they do in their hoop. :pac: Good one!

Ask Swedish people they've plenty of syrian ghettos

Crann na Beatha

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Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

I simply don't know what to think about what happens in Afghanistan.

But here's a video of Rick Stein cooking an authentic spaghetti carbonara with pecorino cheese & pancetta. Absolutely delicious.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

TheLastMohican

I understand the revulsion that people in the West feel. But East Of Suez, sexual mores are different. Some would even think it strange that you marry a person for a camel/goat dowry love.
Ah, the ever-changing kaleidoscope of life.

Notavirus.exe

I thought it was obvious that assault is illegal.

Ellie2008

TheLastMohican wrote: »

I understand the revulsion that people in the West feel. But East Of Suez, sexual mores are different. Some would even think it strange that you marry a person for a camel/goat dowry love.
Ah, the ever-changing kaleidoscope of life.

"sexual mores are different" were they not raping little boys? Are they cool with that?

DEFTLEFTHAND

This man should be commended for his actions and be noted as a name for future advancement in rank. Instead he gets a discharge, what kind of a show are these yanks running in their military?

TheLastMohican

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

I thought it was obvious that assault is illegal.

Different cultures. Some cultures extol man/boy love. Not my bag but life is life.

Ellie2008 wrote: »

"sexual mores are different" were they not raping little boys? Are they cool with that?

Our definition of rape and theirs can be different.

One of the front runners in our last Presidential elections spoke candidly about ancient Greece and his approval if an older man had taught him the ropes.

David, if you're reading this, can you extrapolate?

Ellie2008

TheLastMohican wrote: »

Different cultures. Some cultures extol man/boy love. Not my bag but life is life.



Our definition of rape and theirs can be different.

One of the front runners in our last Presidential elections spoke candidly about ancient Greece and his approval if an older man had taught him the ropes.

David, if you're reading this, can you extrapolate?

Yeah you make a good point, so who s standards do we hold them to, if they are bring trained in by American soldiers?

karma_

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

I thought it was obvious that assault is illegal.

fúck legality, you do what is right...always. Unlike yourself, I imagine.