Will Cameron survive Bacongate?

josephryan1989

Lord Ashcroft who was passed over for a cabinet post has exposed the goings on of the young David Cameron who as part of the initiation for the Piers Gaveston Society at Oxford apparently inserted a certain part of his body into the mouth of a dead pig.

The story has taken the internet by storm with interest focuses on an episode of a bizarre drama series called Black Mirror which included an episode where a princess is kidnapped by terrorists who threaten to kill her unless the Prime Minister has sex with a pig on live television.

Jokes referencing Kermit the Frog, Miss Piggy, the Big bad Wolf and the popular nursery ryhme little pigs are doing the rounds.

Internationally Britain is going to have difficulty dealing with the Arabs and Israelis who both for religious reasons see pigs as unclean animals.

LuckyLloyd

Yep - it will blowover and he'll be fine.

A Dub in Glasgo

Those posh boys have some strange initiation ceremonies - in the spirit of openness, he should explain how he felt and what lessons he can learn from the episode

custard gannet

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Those posh boys have some strange initiation ceremonies - in the spirit of openness, he should explain how he felt and what lessons he can learn from the episode

He says he is refusing to dignify it with a response. Which I take to mean he would have flatly denied it only he is concerned that somewhere someone might have a photo of it and if it surfaces a flat denial would have been a blatant telling of, well, porkies.

A Dub in Glasgo

custard gannet wrote: »

if it surfaces a flat denial would have been a blatant telling of, well, porkies.

Like all slippery politicians, he can always say he 'misstated his awareness' of the event

Jawgap

It's when stories like this pop up that you really miss Spitting Image.

Will he survive? Probably, but it depends on how long it takes for him to stop being an object of ridicule.

Saying that, if the photo surfaces I'd say he's gone.

I'd also imagine there'll be further 'revelations' as the tabloids dig into those posh boy clubs in Oxbridge.

custard gannet

It's strange that both the BBC and Sky are refusing to air the actual content of the allegation.

josephryan1989

This is the infamous episode of Black Mirror in which a fictional Prime Minister is held to ransom - the much beloved Princess Susanah is going be killed unless he f*cks a pig live on television. As the deadline draws near and the life of the princess is on the line the heroic Prime Minister feels he must do his duty.

ancapailldorcha

I would ask anyone new here to read the charter of this forum before posting. This is a forum for serious discussion. One liners and links to Youtube videos without analysis do not constitute serious discussion.

Thanks,
ancapailldorcha

Jawgap

custard gannet wrote: »

It's strange that both the BBC and Sky are refusing to air the actual content of the allegation.

Probably for editorial reasons.

I think the story in the book is based on a single source (so far) and the BBC and Sky might require corroboration before opting to run with it.

They may yet do a story about the coverage it's receiving.

Edit: it's on the BBC's site Lord Ashcroft 'not settling scores' with David Cameron book

A Dub in Glasgo

So in the vein of serious discussion, does this point to the 'establishment' use these initiation procedures as a way of influencing or controlling what policies will be implemented or just as importantly, not implemented should said student / member become a VIP later in life. A little nudge here and there saying 'remember the pigs nostril'

A Dub in Glasgo

Jawgap wrote: »

Probably for editorial reasons.

I think the story in the book is based on a single source (so far) and the BBC and Sky might require corroboration before opting to run with it.

I have yet to see Sky specifically wait for corroboration on other matters

Nodin

Jawgap wrote: »

It's when stories like this pop up that you really miss Spitting Image.

Will he survive? Probably, but it depends on how long it takes for him to stop being an object of ridicule.

I'm afraid that the event described is such an unholy combination as to haunt him forever. Puns, photoshop, nervous pig noises when he appears on TV. BBC are indeed avoiding mentioning it on their website, which will make it worse. More sales for the Lord Ashcroft lad, though he won't need the money.

Nodin

Jawgap wrote: »

Probably for editorial reasons.

I think the story in the book is based on a single source (so far) and the BBC and Sky might require corroboration before opting to run with it.

They may yet do a story about the coverage it's receiving.

Edit: it's on the BBC's site Lord Ashcroft 'not settling scores' with David Cameron book

..an article which doesn't actually mention the specifics of the allegations. Which is a shame, as I'd like to see how they phrase it.

josephryan1989

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I would ask anyone new here to read the charter of this forum before posting. This is a forum for serious discussion. One liners and links to Youtube videos without analysis do not constitute serious discussion.

Thanks,
ancapailldorcha

The Black Mirror episode has now become part of the story. <snip>

http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/david-cameron-black-mirror-charlie-6485095

ancapailldorcha

josephryan1989 wrote: »

The Black Mirror episode has now become part of the story. <snip>

http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/david-cameron-black-mirror-charlie-6485095

Tone back the language please. I was not referring to your post. There was another with a video which I've deleted.

afatbollix

I could say anything about any head of state and no one would take any notice.


This is a guy with a grudge and has written the best headline for the daily mail ever but with alot of stuff in the daily mail its just <snip>(A load of old tosh).

Wouldnt it be nice if I was a billionaire who wanted some power and took the head of state to ransom and who didnt get his way shouted over the school wall saying you had sexual relations with a pig.. ha ha ha.

A Dub in Glasgo

Ashcroft preface to his book

http://www.lordashcroft.com/call_me_dave_preface.pdf

FTA69

Delighted to see Cameron being made the subject of ridicule anyway, makes a change from Corbyn getting annihilated in the press over total non issues.

Regardless of the stupidity of the event, I'm glad it focuses attention on Cameron's political origins; namely poncing around Oxbridge with the Bullingdon Club - a group whose sole purpose is to revel in the fact they're loaded and to display this fact in a nasty fashion. Some of the antics of this crowd include dressing up in tops and tails and destroying restaurants as well as burning fifty pound notes in front of the homeless. It is the epitome of an exclusionary elite who view power and privilege as their natural right.

In a country where he majority of the Cabinet are multi-millionaires, I hope this incident reiterates the fact that the Tories and their ilk are far from representative of the average person.

RDM_83 again

FTA69 wrote: »

In a country where he majority of the Cabinet are multi-millionaires, I hope this incident reiterates the fact that the Tories and their ilk are far from representative of the average person.

The thing is people expect this from the Conservatives, they don't pretend to be anything but elitist, well they pretend to not be elitist but not very well.

Labour market themselves as the representative party

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-leadership-candidates-andy-burnham-tristram-hunt-liz-kendall-yvette-cooper-mary-creagh-oxbridge-10256563.html

And their former Leadership and Prime-ministers are no more representative.
Admittedly Corybn is a breath of fresh airbut he did go to a prestigous Grammer School and who knows where he would have ended up if he wasn't quiet so academically poor (I know this sounds like pushing an agenda but since even in those days he wouldn't have had the grades its relevant to wonder)

Jelle1880

I think people need to remember that this is some unknown source in an unauthorised biography written by one of his political rivals.

Did he do it ? Maybe, students sometimes do all sorts of messed up stuff.

Is it as big an issue as people make it out to be ? Hardly.

I wish the media would focus more on Ashcroft basically admitting he expected a nice political post in exchange for backing the Tories financially, and Cameron rightfully told him to do one.

DivingDuck

Front page news: drunk college student does something stupid and tasteless at party several decades ago. Who cares?

Can't see the fuss, myself. Had this been a live animal, this would be gross and repugnant abuse. As it was a dead one, it was a bit more like playing with your dinner. Who was harmed by this act? Nobody, not that I can see. (Assuming nobody was looking forward to tongue beforehand.) So why does anyone even care?

I hope he will survive it, since I think it's a poor indictment of society if it doesn't.

touts

Meh! Worse things happen at the Trinity Ball and there are bound to be a few future ministers at that every year.

FreudianSlippers

custard gannet wrote: »

It's strange that both the BBC and Sky are refusing to air the actual content of the allegation.

I'm not at all surprised about this. Cameron could have an amazing libel case - one must remember that the statement is presumed to be false in defamation and the onus is on the defendant to raise a defence (truth, honest opinion, etc.) but there are also clear issues around malice in the present case. The rules are slightly different in England & Wales around libel/slander than they are in Ireland around defamation, but I would not believe it would be hard for Cameron to hit the slightly higher bar for bringing a case in England & Wales than in Ireland.

If I was advising a media outlet at the moment, I would be telling them to be very careful in reporting the story.

It's pretty vile but also fairly harmless (missed the 'r' there the first time! :pac:). Can't see it hurting Cameron too much tbh.

I thought it funny that what the local radio station here (in a staunchly Labour area) took from the whole story was that Cameron should probably be applauded for refusing to allow Ashcroft to buy his way into Government!

syklops

I think the very fact that the news has been out for 36 hours and the AH thread on the matter is only 2 pages in length shows people are already fed up of it and it will be forgotten about entirely by about Friday.

That is, until the next episode of Have I got news for you.

Fratton Fred

I think Cameron could do ok out of this. Sticking two fingers up to a billionaire who thought he could buy a political party isn't going to do him any harm and lets face it, if this is the biggest thing they can come up with to discredit the PM, then he must be pretty clean.

This reminds me a bit of the Paddy Ashdown affair, where a bit of scandal improved his popularity.

Eugene Norman

Hmm. There seems to be a bit of hypocrisy here. The accusations are of necrophilliac beastiality. If this was something alleged about, say, Putin or Corbyn or some demonised monstered tabloid fodder there would he calls for the introduction of hanging or an invasion of Russia.

Nodin

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Hmm. There seems to be a bit of hypocrisy here. The accusations are of necrophilliac beastiality. If this was something alleged about, say, Putin or Corbyn or some demonised monstered tabloid fodder there would he calls for the introduction of hanging or an invasion of Russia.

There is the fact that the majority of British press are sympathetic to the Tories, doubtless with a dash of prudishness about the details of the 'ghastly business'. Realistically I can't see it sinking him, though it will be thrown at him now and again for the rest of his life.

Fratton Fred

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Hmm. There seems to be a bit of hypocrisy here. The accusations are of necrophilliac beastiality. If this was something alleged about, say, Putin or Corbyn or some demonised monstered tabloid fodder there would he calls for the introduction of hanging or an invasion of Russia.

Necrophiliac bestiality, seriously?

It's a stupid student prank, no more, no less.

josephryan1989

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Necrophiliac bestiality, seriously?

It's a stupid student prank, no more, no less.

If it was a baby pig then its paedonecrobestiaphilia?

johnnyskeleton

Mod note:

We seem to be getting off topic.

What impact will this have for David Cameron and his leadership? Would you have confidence in a Prime Minister who engaged in such conduct? Did it even happen at all, since the evidence appears to be somewhat shaky?

These are the burning issues of the day. Porcine coital terminology is not really political debate.

Fratton Fred

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Mod note:

We seem to be getting off topic.

What impact will this have for David Cameron and his leadership? Would you have confidence in a Prime Minister who engaged in such conduct? Did it even happen at all, since the evidence appears to be somewhat shaky?

These are the burning issues of the day. Porcine coital terminology is not really political debate.

He doesn't deny smoking a bit of weed and taking a line of coke.

He does however, state he hasn't since he started in politics.

I like politicians that are real and have done things that most of us, in our wild youth, would have. It just means he is human.

ancapailldorcha

I don't think that this will sink or even damage Cameron. It'll blow over and quite soon as well. However, it does highlight what is become a somewhat disturbing trend in British political culture. It'll serve to increase the pressure on politicians to appear whiter than white. We live in an age where everything anyone prominent says is forever recorded and so politicians do their best to give bland, inoffensive statements to avoid future repercussions.

questions obviously exist over the veracity of the claims and last night's newsnight showed that the author didn't really put much effort into fact checking...

Basically saying "we wrote it, up to you to consider whether it's true or not".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A9sRVSoPjw

from 2 mins on is relevant

A Dub in Glasgo

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Necrophiliac bestiality, seriously?

It's a stupid student prank, no more, no less.

I am amazed at those who would be offended at anything now saying 'no more or no less, it is acceptable' :pac: :pac:

A Dub in Glasgo

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

What impact will this have for David Cameron and his leadership? Would you have confidence in a Prime Minister who engaged in such conduct? Did it even happen at all, since the evidence appears to be somewhat shaky?

Very little it would appear. No. Yes

my teapot is orange

The pig thing won't bring him down, because no matter how sick and twisted it is, it's not illegal and if someone where to go down the unethical/immoral route, well who really suffered is any serious way?

The knowledge of non-dom thing would be more of a challenge politically.

Eugene Norman

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Necrophiliac bestiality, seriously?

It's a stupid student prank, no more, no less.

No it's not Frank. Pretend somebody you didn't like did it? Say Gerry Adams was partial to an odd bit of dead porcine oral sex, would you not feel disgust?

Imagine some obscure dictator. Maybe the premier of some Russian republic? Would you dismiss pig coitus so readily?

Would we not be calling even for Edna's resignation and would not Obama be fatally compromised? Wouldn't we Irish just dissolve in a puddle of embarrassment if the Taoiseach were a pig lover? In the biblical sense.

Or even the non powerful. A benefits street program showing some drug addict getting jiggly with a dead pig would lead to many an irate article about the decline of working class morality.

Above a certain class and in a certain country though, tis but high jinks.

johnnyskeleton

Eugene Norman wrote: »

No it's not Frank. Pretend somebody you didn't like did it? Say Gerry Adams was partial to an odd bit of dead porcine oral sex, would you not feel disgust?

Imagine some obscure dictator. Maybe the premier of some Russian republic? Would you dismiss pig coitus so readily?

Would we not be calling even for Edna's resignation and would not Obama be fatally compromised? Wouldn't we Irish just dissolve in a puddle of embarrassment if the Taoiseach were a pig lover? In the biblical sense.

Or even the non powerful. A benefits street program showing some drug addict getting jiggly with a dead pig would lead to many an irate article about the decline of working class morality.

Maybe thats true. But if it is, it suggests people will opportunistically use sex scandals for political gains rather than, as you suggest that it is some kind of class issue:

Above a certain class and in a certain country though, tis but high jinks.

I suppose ultimately does it say anything about his ability to govern? The problem with the Profumo affair and the Clinton/Lewinski scandals is that the person denied their truth and then recanted i.e. lied publically while in public office.

I guess if he admittued doing it it wouldnt be a big deal, or if its untrue clearly its not relevant. But if it transpires to be true his denials go to his credibility as Prime Minister

DivingDuck

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Pretend somebody you didn't like did it? Say Gerry Adams was partial to an odd bit of dead porcine oral sex, would you not feel disgust?

I'm disgusted at the thought of Cameron doing it. That doesn't mean I think his career should end over it.

However, the suggestion does seem to be that the act was not done for sexual gratification, but for group amusement. That, more than the class angle, seems to be what's swaying people's opinions on it towards the side of "It was years ago, who cares".

People are squeamish/prudish about sexual pleasure in a way they aren't about people making a prat of themselves for other people's enjoyment. There's also a general belief that people will grow out of doing stupid things to impress their mates, but won't grow out of their peculiar kinks, so the latter will be considered more likely to influence current behaviour than the former.

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Wouldn't we Irish just dissolve in a puddle of embarrassment if the Taoiseach were a pig lover? In the biblical sense.

I'd certainly be embarrassed. No doubt Cameron is embarrassed. The UK as a whole will get some ribbing for this on the worldwide political stage, with the expectation they they will be embarrassed.

But I find the idea that someone's career could end, and that some people think it should end, over something as facile as a gross student giggle to be a lot more than embarrassing. I find that distressing.

I can't say I've ever porked a porker, but surely most people have done something stupid in their uni days that they'd prefer didn't become public knowledge. Although you might cringe a bit to think back on it, these things don't impact your ability to make good decisions today. If anything, remembering that embarrassment might encourage you to make better decisions in future so that you don't have to feel that way again.

Eugene Norman

@divingduck that's a good argument on the lifelong kinks vs playing to the gallery when young.

I don't think it will harm him for that reason, unless we find out he took a shine to it.

I still think were he in labour it would be a bigger issue ( nor do I believe that everybody has similar stories. I used to steal traffic cones) but it looks like most people are forgiving.

DivingDuck

Eugene Norman wrote: »

I still think were he in labour it would be a bigger issue ( nor do I believe that everybody has similar stories. I used to steal traffic cones) but it looks like most people are forgiving.

I don't think his political leanings would influence it that much, but now I think about it, I do think that the fact that he's English rather than Irish (or even Welsh or Scottish) did have some impact.

If he were from (what's perceived by outsiders as) a more rural society, people would probably be quicker to label it perviness rather than stupidity. I don't think a "townie" Labour candidate would be accused of any more impropriety than Cameron has been, though.

Fratton Fred

Eugene Norman wrote: »

No it's not Frank. Pretend somebody you didn't like did it? Say Gerry Adams was partial to an odd bit of dead porcine oral sex, would you not feel disgust?

Imagine some obscure dictator. Maybe the premier of some Russian republic? Would you dismiss pig coitus so readily?

Would we not be calling even for Edna's resignation and would not Obama be fatally compromised? Wouldn't we Irish just dissolve in a puddle of embarrassment if the Taoiseach were a pig lover? In the biblical sense.

Or even the non powerful. A benefits street program showing some drug addict getting jiggly with a dead pig would lead to many an irate article about the decline of working class morality.

Above a certain class and in a certain country though, tis but high jinks.

You're making it sound like he had actual sex with a living pig and received some sort of sexual gratification out of it.

I've seen students strip naked, clench a strip of toilet roll between their butt cheeks, set light to the other end and run down the road.

I've seen guys do dirty Sanchez type stunts and staple their ball sack.

A student putting his dick in the mouth of a dead pig? Not exactly shocking. Worthy of a laugh and a piss take, but no more.

The fact a billionaire thinks he can buy political favour and reacts like this when he can't, that's newsworthy and if he were my MP, I'd want his resignation immediately.

If Gerry Adams did it, it would make him seem less boring, if Putin did it and someone told the press, they'd be eating their own testicles.

If someone other than a rich ex Etonion Tory boy did it, no one would care.

Peregrinus

I can't think of a single example of a British politician whose career has been derailed by the revelation of a tasteless sexual excess during student days. And Cameron has never posed as holier than thou in his personal life. And we already knew that he was a drunken, indulgent, entitled Hooray Henry in his student days.

He will survive this.

efb

This is such a non story, only useful for Twitter puns and memes

jank

This could actually do well with Cameron as he is derided in the press as being Bland with a capital B. I suppose this makes him appear more human as who has not done stupid **** in their youth and student days. Not to mention telling someone who expected a job for donations go take a hike. That is the actual real story here. He showed serious integrity knowing that a story like this could come out.

Regardless, its all mute as Cameron has stated that he will not be leading the Torries into the next election. He will be gone out of his own accord in the next 2-3 years and hand the reigns over to Osborne or Boris.

A Dub in Glasgo

jank wrote: »

hat is the actual real story here. He showed serious integrity knowing that a story like this could come out.

No the real story here is how he misled the public about Ashcroft and his Non Dom status

jank

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

No the real story here is how he misled the public about Ashcroft and his Non Dom status

Did that emerge with this book?

Tabnabs

Very much so

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-knew-about-my-non-dom-status-lord-ashcroft-claims-10511767.html

jank

Tabnabs wrote: »

Very much so

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-knew-about-my-non-dom-status-lord-ashcroft-claims-10511767.html

David Cameron knew about my non-dom status, Lord Ashcroft claims

It may be true and it would be news-worthy if it was verified. However, are we to believe every word of someone who gave a donation in the belief that he would get a ministerial position in exchange? My advise would be to take all this with a pinch of salt before claims are verified.