Week 3 Thread

raze_them_all_

Hazys wrote: »

A-Rod GOAT talk is very premature, currently he's not anywhere close to Brady.

But in saying that, A-Rod has a lot longer to go in his career so he has a ton of time to accomplish more and catch up with Brady but for now lets table this Brady Vs Rodgers GOAT conversation for at least another 5 years.

nobody is making a brady vs Ar debate?


And as he plays, yes he is up there with brady.

If you compare starts to Bradys first 117 games you get this

Bar games won and playoff games Ar wrecks him. In games won brady is up by 12 and playoff games, Brady was a freak going to 14 winning 12

j8wk2feszrnpao

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

In that case peyton manning is not in your list of all time greats?

Where did I say that?

Billy86

munstermagic11 wrote: »

I don't think anyone is using the rings in isolation.
Rodgers has gotten to just one SB; that's something he must improve upon to get into the GOAT debate.
Lighting it up in the regular season is great, winning in the playoffs is a level above.

Here's the thing though - that's still very flawed. As mentioned he had won a SB as the game MVP but as I said if Malcolm Butler messes up that INT last season or Lynch just successfully smashed up the middle instead, does it make Brady a worse QB? Rodgers had that same team beat by 12 points with 2 minutes left, only for his defense and special teams to cave in a manner arguably never seen in NFL history... yet he still got them down to tie up the game and take it to OT. Where the defense quickly gave up the game again. If the defense or special teams showed something even resembling competency, it does not make Rodgers a better QB nor does it make him a lesser one because they didn't.

If I recall Rodgers has the best QBR in the history of the playoffs and one of the higher PPG averages. But his defense has on average allowed more than almost any other historic QB ever (I'll have to check that again, I iec before last season it was about 5ppg more than Peyton, 7 more than Brady and 10+ more than Eli). It's a 53 man game and while the QB is by far the most important player, no QB in the history of the sport has ever, or will ever, win a superbowl without a strong amount of help from his team mates and coaches.

Don't get me wrong g, Brady certainly has the more accomplished career especially with longevity right at this point in time, but he has also had the benefit of arguably the best coach of all time looking after the other side of the ball. I can see why some might make the argument alright, but for me Rodgers over the last 4 years or so has been playing on a level probably never seen before.

Billy86

Hazys wrote: »

A-Rod GOAT talk is very premature, currently he's not anywhere close to Brady.

But in saying that, A-Rod has a lot longer to go in his career so he has a ton of time to accomplish more and catch up with Brady but for now lets table this Brady Vs Rodgers GOAT conversation for at least another 5 years.

Agrees on this part - if Rodgers retired tomorrow he would be more like an upgraded Steve Young than in the GOAT debate as he does not have the quantity, but the quality is perhaps unmatched in league history.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Billy86 wrote: »

Here's the thing though - that's still very flawed. As mentioned he had won a SB as the game MVP but as I said if Malcolm Butler messes up that INT last season or Lynch just successfully smashed up the middle instead, does it make Brady a worse QB?

That's flawed. But for some crazy plays against the Giants, Brady would have 5 rings. It doesn't matter.

Billy86 wrote: »

It's a 53 man game and while the QB is by far the most important player, no QB in the history of the sport has ever, or will ever, win a superbowl without a strong amount of help from his team mates and coaches.

I fully agree.
But QBR and ratings are always thrown out there for Rodgers. And he's an amazing player, I love watching him play. But playoffs, reaching and winning rings count bigtime when it comes to GOAT.

Brady has had an extra 7yrs in the league. Rodgers has the talent and ability to wins a couple more rings. Currently I don't believe that he's close to Brady in the discussion for GOAT, but he has time on his side.

Jolly Red Giant

munstermagic11 wrote: »

But QBR and ratings are always thrown out there for Rodgers. And he's an amazing player, I love watching him play. But playoffs, reaching and winning rings count bigtime when it comes to GOAT.

Brady has had an extra 7yrs in the league. Rodgers has the talent and ability to wins a couple more rings. Currently I don't believe that he's close to Brady in the discussion for GOAT, but he has time on his side.

QBR and ratings are a load of nonsense - there are many very average QBs who had very good ratings. Winning games is what counts.

John Elway finished his career with a QBR of 79.9 ranked 56th overall - but put Elway under centre down by a touchdown with 2 mins to go and watch him work. Put Elway into a SB with the game tied and facing 3rd down and 8 and watch Elway run and dive through the air and be spun like a helicopter - and get the first down - score a TD and eventually win the game.

That is the stuff that counts - Elway had it and others had it as well (Brady included) - not ratings. Rodgers might end up as one of the best ever - he's not there yet - but he will do it based on what he wins and how he wins - not on any rating.

raze_them_all_

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

QBR and ratings are a load of nonsense - there are many very average QBs who had very good ratings. Winning games is what counts.

John Elway finished his career with a QBR of 79.9 ranked 56th overall - but put Elway under centre down by a touchdown with 2 mins to go and watch him work. Put Elway into a SB with the game tied and facing 3rd down and 8 and watch Elway run and dive through the air and be spun like a helicopter - and get the first down - score a TD and eventually win the game.

That is the stuff that counts - Elway had it and others had it as well (Brady included) - not ratings. Rodgers might end up as one of the best ever - he's not there yet - but he will do it based on what he wins and how he wins - not on any rating.

Well you can't come from behind with 2 mins to go if you are ahead which he usually is and usually when we lose our defence desides not to play

Realt Dearg Sec

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Washington Redskins @ New York Giants
Jacksonville Jaguars @ New England Patriots
Atlanta Falcons @ Dallas Cowboys
Indianapolis Colts @ Tennessee Titans
Oakland Raiders @ Cleveland Browns
Cincinnati Bengals @ Baltimore Ravens
New Orleans Saints @ Carolina Panthers
Philadelphia Eagles @ New York Jets
Tampa Bay Buccaneers @ Houston Texans
San Diego Chargers @ Minnesota Vikings
Pittsburgh Steelers @ St Louis Rams
San Francisco 49ers @ Arizona Cardinals
Buffalo Bills @ Miami Dolphins
Chicago Bears @ Seattle Seahawks
Denver Broncos @ Detroit Lions
Kansas City Chiefs @ Green Bay Packers

12-4
28-20 overall

eagle eye

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

Well you can't come from behind with 2 mins to go if you are ahead which he usually is and usually when we lose our defence desides not to play

Yeah but in the playoffs when he is behind he has been less than stellar on a number of occasions. He has had one good game in the last three seasons in the playoffs.

You see he does look awesome because he is so elusive but when you come up against the best defenders in the playoffs you need to be able to stay in the pocket and get your passes off. Rodgers is great at getting out of the pocket and running for a first down or throwing it down the field but you don't get to do that stuff in the playoffs against top teams.

Now I rave about the guy everytime I see him play in the regular season because he just makes it look so easy but the playoffs are where the greats make their name. Peyton Manning has failed to perform too often in the playoffs and to this point Rodgers has too.

Son Of A Vidic

Billy86 wrote: »

Here's the thing though - that's still very flawed. As mentioned he had won a SB as the game MVP but as I said if Malcolm Butler messes up that INT last season or Lynch just successfully smashed up the middle instead, does it make Brady a worse QB?

How would it? Brady had just led the greatest comeback in Superbowl history against probbaly the best defenses of all time. So what Butler did or didn't do would have been completely irrelevant. And even if he didn't make that one play, it wouldn't have reduced the phenomenal performance from Brady when it really mattered. Games are never about one play and anyone who assess any player based on just one play by themselves or by anyone else, is doing it wrong imo.

poldebruin

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

How would it? Brady had just led the greatest comeback in Superbowl history against probbaly the best defenses of all time. So what Butler did or didn't do would have been completely irrelevant. And even if he didn't make that one play, it wouldn't have reduced the phenomenal performance from Brady when it really mattered. Games are never about one play and anyone who assess any player based on just one play by themselves or by anyone else, is doing it wrong imo.

I agree 100% with the sentiment above, and this should be the way we see and try to evaluate QB's but the way media has gone (maybe in the US it has always been skewed this way) but had Lynch gone in for a game winning score, the narrative would have been Tom Brady and the Patriots lost 3 super bowls in a row...can they win the big one etc etc

I think JCTO has it right when he suggests there is never going to be a winner to a GOAT argument, and to try and enjoy (and appreciate) amazing QB play when your team has one of the best.

JRG is correct regarding ratings - they are definitely useful guides as to what a QB can and can't do, and they can point the way to the best QBs, but you really have to see it with your own eyes.

While I would love to see Denver win a Super Bowl - I think it would be so great for the game to see Tom Brady go against Aaron Rodgers in the big game - we were cheated of getting that last year.

poldebruin

poldebruin wrote: »

Washington Redskins @ New York Giants
Jacksonville Jaguars @ New England Patriots
Atlanta Falcons @ Dallas Cowboys
Indianapolis Colts @ Tennessee Titans
Oakland Raiders @ Cleveland Browns
Cincinnati Bengals @ Baltimore Ravens
New Orleans Saints @ Carolina Panthers
Philadelphia Eagles @ New York Jets
Tampa Bay Buccaneers @ Houston Texans
San Diego Chargers @ Minnesota Vikings
Pittsburgh Steelers @ St Louis Rams
San Francisco 49ers @ Arizona Cardinals
Buffalo Bills @ Miami Dolphins
Chicago Bears @ Seattle Seahawks
Denver Broncos @ Detroit Lions
Kansas City Chiefs @ Green Bay Packers

12-4 for the week. NFL starting to settle down into a pattern hopefully.

Jolly Red Giant

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

QBR and ratings are a load of nonsense - there are many very average QBs who had very good ratings. Winning games is what counts.

John Elway finished his career with a QBR of 79.9 ranked 56th overall - but put Elway under centre down by a touchdown with 2 mins to go and watch him work. Put Elway into a SB with the game tied and facing 3rd down and 8 and watch Elway run and dive through the air and be spun like a helicopter - and get the first down - score a TD and eventually win the game.

That is the stuff that counts - Elway had it and others had it as well (Brady included) - not ratings. Rodgers might end up as one of the best ever - he's not there yet - but he will do it based on what he wins and how he wins - not on any rating.

By that logic Wilson looks like he could be in the convo if he keeps going as is 1 sb win and 1 sb loss already.

I think Super Bowl wins are vastly overrated as in recent history at least every Super Bowl has been close with crazy plays so there's plenty of ifs and buts

I agree with the lads saying there's no 1 goat I would say there are tiers bradys on the top tier no doubt. Rogers looks like he will be baring a catastrophic injury

poldebruin

Leslie Blue Ibex wrote: »

By that logic Wilson looks like he could be in the convo if he keeps going as is 1 sb win and 1 sb loss already.

Absolutely if he and the Seahawks keep performing - but while Brady has both Stats and Wins, Wilson only has the latter, and it's debatable how much he has had to do with that (other than his team friendly rookie contract, which allowed Seattle to assemble a formidable squad)

Leslie Blue Ibex wrote: »

I think Super Bowl wins are vastly overrated as in recent history at least every Super Bowl has been close with crazy plays so there's plenty of ifs and buts

Super Bowl 48 was hanging in the balance for at least the first minute of the game!

Leslie Blue Ibex wrote: »

I agree with the lads saying there's no 1 goat I would say there are tiers bradys on the top tier no doubt. Rogers looks like he will be baring a catastrophic injury

Ah, but will he be upper top tier or lower top tier....?

poldebruin

poldebruin wrote: »

Absolutely if he and the Seahawks keep performing - but while Brady has both Stats and Wins, Wilson only has the latter, and it's debatable how much he has had to do with that (other than his team friendly rookie contract, which allowed Seattle to assemble a formidable squad)


Super Bowl 48 was hanging in the balance for at least the first minute of the game!


Ah, but will he be upper top tier or lower top tier....?

1.thats my point I dont think wilsons well on his way at all be honest o think he has quite a bit to prove and he will get his chance in the coming years

2. Ok one Super Bowl my point is compleatly invalid

3.i think he already lower top tier he should make upper top tier

D9Male

D9Male wrote: »

Washington Redskins @ New York Giants
Jacksonville Jaguars @ New England Patriots
Atlanta Falcons @ Dallas Cowboys
Indianapolis Colts @ Tennessee Titans
Oakland Raiders @ Cleveland Browns
Cincinnati Bengals @ Baltimore Ravens
New Orleans Saints @ Carolina Panthers
Philadelphia Eagles @ New York Jets
Tampa Bay Buccaneers @ Houston Texans
San Diego Chargers @ Minnesota Vikings
Pittsburgh Steelers @ St Louis Rams
San Francisco 49ers @ Arizona Cardinals
Buffalo Bills @ Miami Dolphins
Chicago Bears @ Seattle Seahawks
Denver Broncos @ Detroit Lions
Kansas City Chiefs @ Green Bay Packers

11-5 on week. 29-19 overall. Jets, eh?