Am I a FTB??

sac2020

Hi, looked into a number of threads but didnt find any answer to my case so seeking out some help.

I bought a property back in my home country couple of years back, which because of the financial situation of builder is still under construction(huge project) and at this speed i dont see it getting complete in another 2-3 yrss... very common case

Now I plan to buy a property in Ireland, do I qualify to be a FTB? as i dont have a livable property in my home country and i can prove that.
when purchasing this property, here one of the solicitors in ireland said that you should be fine, but when I spoke to the bank here yest , they said no.

Is there a way around?

Also to complicate i bought 1 property 10 yrs back which I sold within 2 yrs ..without living in it and as soon as it got completed.


So not clear where I stand now overall.
never lived in my own house, but do i lose out the FTB benefit? plan to continue living in ireland and sell the other property in near future.

markpb

sac2020 wrote: »

Also to complicate i bought 1 property 10 yrs back which I sold within 2 yrs ..without living in it and as soon as it got completed.

In my mind, this bit answers your question quite clearly. Did you buy a house before - yes.

johnnyskeleton

Doesnt sound like youre an FTB or have any way around it. Youre a third time buyer.

the groutch

FTB status is based on ownership, not on habitation, so there's no way around it.

If you've owned property (individually or jointly) at any time in your life you're not a first time buyer.

Grolschevik

the groutch wrote:

If you've owned property (individually or jointly) at any time in your life you're not a first time buyer.

Always vaguely wondered about this. Say you owned a house once and sold it 20 years ago... Who keeps the record, or who would go looking it up and where, if you didn't voluntarily disclose it?

Actually, let's make it 30 years ago in an attempt to exclude any early online databases.

the groutch

The Land Registry would have records of all property transactions.

percy212

The OP is a FTB in Ireland.

Glenbhoy

Op is not a ftb according the Irish revenue services definition.
The cbi guidelines state that ftb status is determined by the revenue definition.
Presuming the query relates to ftb status re the new borrowing rules, the op does not qualify.
It will of course be extremely likely that the op will be the sole source of information on this point.

Grolschevik

the groutch wrote: »

The Land Registry would have records of all property transactions.

Yes, but would anyone (bank, solicitor, Revenue?) actually do a search of the registry to see if you were fraudulently claiming to be FTB?

Supercell

OP I would be astonished if there was some kind of reciprocal house purchase database across Europe (assume you are from an EU country originally) that the revenue checks for this.


I'd be listening to a solicitor's advice before a bank officials to be honest, they are not experts in the law, just don't mention it to them.

The_Conductor

percy212 wrote: »

The OP is a FTB in Ireland.

Legally- they are not.

April 73

What are the benefits of being classified as a FTB? A lower deposit percentage under the new lending rules? Anything else?

Glenbhoy

April 73 wrote: »

What are the benefits of being classified as a FTB? A lower deposit percentage under the new lending rules? Anything else?

At present that is the only benefit, who knows what the budget might bring though!

The_Conductor

April 73 wrote: »

What are the benefits of being classified as a FTB? A lower deposit percentage under the new lending rules? Anything else?

Thats it. There was a proposal to have some sort of a FTB incentive in the budget- however, its acknowledged that it was kite flying- and has already been ruled out at cabinet level. So- the lower deposit requirement is the one and only benefit.

April 73

Glenbhoy wrote: »

At present that is the only benefit, who knows what the budget might bring though!

Who knows?! Politicians do love to meddle in the property market.

So if the OP bought outside Ireland I can't see how a bank would know or Land Registry would know. It's not causing any issues with Revenue either. It's up to the OP to decide if he tells a lie or is honest if asked directly by the lending bank about previous house purchases.

Archaeoliz

We have owned property in the UK, never anything in Ireland and our solicitor and the bank have both told us we are not FTB in Ireland (or anywhere else).

So if the OP bought outside Ireland I can't see how a bank would know or Land Registry would know. It's not causing any issues with Revenue either. It's up to the OP to decide if he tells a lie or is honest if asked directly by the lending bank about previous house purchases.

This is not just a little white lie, it's fraud. You're not a FTB. Any solicitor who advocates you just not declaring it would risk the wrath of the Law Society and being struck off the register. They may even be struck off anyway if they're involved, you don't tell them and it comes to light later. The impact of deceit is wider than just the OP.

Amazed this is even a question. It would be illegal. "Sure, it'll be grand lads" doesn't work here.

April 73

Archaeoliz wrote: »

We have owned property in the UK, never anything in Ireland and our solicitor and the bank have both told us we are not FTB in Ireland (or anywhere else).



This is not just a little white lie, it's fraud. You're not a FTB. Any solicitor who advocates you just not declaring it would risk the wrath of the Law Society and being struck off the register. They may even be struck off anyway if they're involved, you don't tell them and it comes to light later. The impact of deceit is wider than just the OP.

Amazed this is even a question. It would be illegal. "Sure, it'll be grand lads" doesn't work here.

I think I was clear in saying it was a choice between lying & being honest. It's not a "little white lie"

Fraud seems like a harsh description but if you look up the definition of fraud then it's probably accurate enough.

"A false representation of a matter of fact—whether by words or by conduct, by false or misleading allegations, or by concealment of what should have been disclosed—that deceives and is intended to deceive another so that the individual will act upon it to her or his legal injury"

I returned to Ireland in 1999 and missed out on the very nice First Time Buyer's Grant that was available then because I had bought a house outside of Ireland. I doubt it would have come to light but I didn't claim to be a FTB. Of course everyone operates differently.

If the OP is only asking the question of whether he is a FTB or not then it's clear that he/she is not.

Pac2015

sac2020 wrote: »

Hi, looked into a number of threads but didnt find any answer to my case so seeking out some help.

I bought a property back in my home country couple of years back, which because of the financial situation of builder is still under construction(huge project) and at this speed i dont see it getting complete in another 2-3 yrss... very common case

Now I plan to buy a property in Ireland, do I qualify to be a FTB? as i dont have a livable property in my home country and i can prove that.
when purchasing this property, here one of the solicitors in ireland said that you should be fine, but when I spoke to the bank here yest , they said no.

Is there a way around?

Also to complicate i bought 1 property 10 yrs back which I sold within 2 yrs ..without living in it and as soon as it got completed.


So not clear where I stand now overall.
never lived in my own house, but do i lose out the FTB benefit? plan to continue living in ireland and sell the other property in near future.

Unfortunately you are not a first time buyer.

Pac2015

percy212 wrote: »

The OP is a FTB in Ireland.

This does not count once you have purchased a property in any country you are classed as a non first time buyer.

sac2020

thanks everyone for the response.
its disappointing to knw that I wont be classified as a ftb. I was mortgage approved last year and since no one asked me specifically ( i think) i was told that am taken as FTB. now with another bank, i told them my story and after some discussion they told me that am not a FTB.
My house is outside europe so dont think anyone will know but again dont want to take any risk if revenue finds out later somehow.
I know a lot of guys here who have purchased property here and am sure they would have also claimed as FTB even when that was nt the case.

but thanks again everyone

athtrasna

sac2020 wrote: »

thanks everyone for the response.
its disappointing to knw that I wont be classified as a ftb. I was mortgage approved last year and since no one asked me specifically ( i think) i was told that am taken as FTB. now with another bank, i told them my story and after some discussion they told me that am not a FTB.
My house is outside europe so dont think anyone will know but again dont want to take any risk if revenue finds out later somehow.
I know a lot of guys here who have purchased property here and am sure they would have also claimed as FTB even when that was nt the case.

but thanks again everyone

It's not a matter of being taken as a first time buyer, it's a statement of fact. You are not a first time buyer or even a second time buyer, I don't know how it even needed discussion with the bank. Glad you've decided not to lie.

Tuesday_Girl

I owned and sold two apartments abroad over the last 15 years.

Back in Ireland now and I applied to two banks recently for a mortgage. Told them my whole story and one assured me that I would be considered a FTB while the other said I would not. So even the banks don't seem clear on this.

athtrasna

First.time.buyer - the clue is in the question. Doesn't need genius to decipher. You either are or you're not.

The_Conductor

Tuesday_Girl wrote: »

I owned and sold two apartments abroad over the last 15 years.

Back in Ireland now and I applied to two banks recently for a mortgage. Told them my whole story and one assured me that I would be considered a FTB while the other said I would not. So even the banks don't seem clear on this.

Its not at the discretion of the banks- it is a Revenue designation- and its not open to interpretation- you have either owned property previously in Ireland- or elsewhere in the world- or you have not- period.

Even asking a bank- it tantamount to evasion tactics- it is not in the giving of the bank to say you are or are not a first-time-buyer.

Claiming this status- when you are not entitled to it- is fraud- and removes a bank's discretion to offer more favourable terms to a prospective borrower who actually meets the criteria.

Glenbhoy

The_Conductor wrote: »

Its not at the discretion of the banks- it is a Revenue designation- and its not open to interpretation- you have either owned property previously in Ireland- or elsewhere in the world- or you have not- period.

Even asking a bank- it tantamount to evasion tactics- it is not in the giving of the bank to say you are or are not a first-time-buyer.

Claiming this status- when you are not entitled to it- is fraud- and removes a bank's discretion to offer more favourable terms to a prospective borrower who actually meets the criteria.

Technically fraud, but maybe in this instance the law is an ass and the legislation doesn't adequately reflect the spirit of central bank wishes.
They hadn't wanted any exceptions, as they're remit doesn't extend to providing for different strands of the population, under political pressure the succumbed and then for expediency they ran with the revenue definition.
It would have made more sense to have made allowances for those who do not currently own a property in this country.

Tuesday_Girl

The_Conductor wrote: »

Its not at the discretion of the banks- it is a Revenue designation- and its not open to interpretation- you have either owned property previously in Ireland- or elsewhere in the world- or you have not- period.

Even asking a bank- it tantamount to evasion tactics- it is not in the giving of the bank to say you are or are not a first-time-buyer.

Claiming this status- when you are not entitled to it- is fraud- and removes a bank's discretion to offer more favourable terms to a prospective borrower who actually meets the criteria.

I know that, just saying that if a mortgage adviser at a major bank doesn't understand the definition of a FTB then it's not surprising to have people posting here looking for advice and clarification.

I didn't ask the bank anything or claim anything, I merely told them that I had owned two properties abroad in the past and they said I would be classified as a FTB. Of course it's up to me to know the rules on this and ensure I don't do anything unlawful but the banks lack of knowledge doesn't help.

Muff Richardson

What I find particularly harsh about the rules is that I am a ftb but my fiancée is not, we still need the 20%. Would 15% or some kind of allowance for this kind of situation not make more sense

The_Conductor

It is harsh- however- the flipside of all of this- is the days of 90% + mortgages- are what left the carnage in the housing sector in this country- carnage that we have not yet recovered from (there are over 50,000 homes that realistically will be repossessed before the end of 2016- despite the platitudes of the politicians).

Having higher deposit requirements- was historically the norm- it took me almost 5 years of scrimping- doing two fulltime jobs- to put together the deposit for the townhouse I now live in with my wife and two little children (and you can bet we never intended to bring up children here- but thats another story).

The housing sector in Ireland- as an economic model- is broken- and the sticking plasters that politicians habitually prescribe- have only stored up a world of hurt for current and future owners..........

I know it doesn't sound fair that where one party in a relationship is a FTB but the other not- that both loose their FTB status- however, you have a more prudent, sustainable mortgage at the end of the day- albeit- with some hurt at the outset- as you save your deposit.

Now to get the government to row back from devolving its housing responsibilities to the private sector- and get a normal functioning market back on track again......... Wishful thinking on my part, I know..........