2nd level teachers discussion of JC vote

deiseindublin

I think it's time to open a new thread for second level teachers to discuss JC debacle.

I'm sure FG aren't too happy not to have this sewn up before the country witnesses a give away budget. It's probably a good time to negotiate.

Wonder what ASTI are realistically hoping to get? News made it sound like they have a few bits and pieces to iron out and then are happy to recommend a Yes.

History Queen

I am not a member of the ASTI... what are their main offical objections to the current proposals?

deiseindublin

I'm not a member either HQ but they've loads of different objections, but I think the crux of it is mistrust in the government sticking with external corrections and also whether or not hours will be provided for admin/coordination of it.

implausible

deiseindublin wrote: »

I'm not a member either HQ but they've loads of different objections, but I think the crux of it is mistrust in the government sticking with external corrections and also whether or not hours will be provided for admin/coordination of it.

The new proposals were allowing for 40 mins per week and staff days, weren't they? The JMB and ETBi are supposed to be fighting for posts and admin hours, while the teaching unions focused on the nuts and bolts of the syllabus.

deiseindublin

Yes, 40 minutes per week, no matter how many classes or years you had for up to 3 subjects.

Also, 2 hour meeting per year per subject for Assessment planning. This has to be done outside timetabled hours or when every teacher of that subject was free for the duration.

katydid

deiseindublin wrote: »

I'm not a member either HQ but they've loads of different objections, but I think the crux of it is mistrust in the government sticking with external corrections and also whether or not hours will be provided for admin/coordination of it.

What they were being asked to do could have been incorporated for the most part in their current assessment schedule.

man_no_plan

deiseindublin wrote: »

Yes, 40 minutes per week, no matter how many classes or years you had for up to 3 subjects.

Also, 2 hour meeting per year per subject for Assessment planning. This has to be done outside timetabled hours or when every teacher of that subject was free for the duration.

I think the 40mins is a bit of a red herring but was it was important nonetheless to get a tome concession I'm recognition of the change.

There could simply have been 2-3 days where the school was closed for pupils to allow all thus to happen plain and simple never mind 40 mins per week.

If its costing 22hrs per teacher you could close them for a week. I think teacher time is important but the class per week idea is just silly.

implausible

man_no_plan wrote: »

I think the 40mins is a bit of a red herring but was it was important nonetheless to get a tome concession I'm recognition of the change.

There could simply have been 2-3 days where the school was closed for pupils to allow all thus to happen plain and simple never mind 40 mins per week.

If its costing 22hrs per teacher you could close them for a week. I think teacher time is important but the class per week idea is just silly.

The proposals had one day per year for the whole school and 10 hrs this year, 14 hours next year for English teachers. As it's meant to be phased in subject by subject, there'd be no point in having schools closed for a whole week.

I can't think of another time when the Dept actually accepted that planning time was necessary for teachers.

man_no_plan

implausible wrote: »

The proposals had one day per year for the whole school and 10 hrs this year, 14 hours next year for English teachers. As it's meant to be phased in subject by subject, there'd be no point in having schools closed for a whole week.

I can't think of another time when the Dept actually accepted that planning time was necessary for teachers.

The point is that its equivalent to a week per teacher per year.

We have 5 English teachers in 1st yr and the same in 2nd. That's 7 or 8 in total involved in the new JC English. The class per week wont give the much time together.

The practicality of freeing up all English teachers together for ten hours this year has been poorly thought out Imo.

I think you need time, but I think it could be planned in a better way. I said before that getting des recognition of the time required was important.

acequion

People saying that they can't understand why the ASTI voted No seems utterly incredible to me. If people are so interested why are they not reading all the threads, Threads which are actually packed with both information and opinion.

So if I may, I shall after this post, re-post my reasons for voting No from another thread. These would be my main stumbling block to this reform and would be my manifesto for a new campaign.

As for the 40 minutes per teacher, I consider that a farce. Firstly it is widely recognised that 22 contact hours per week,one of the highest of the OECD countries,is too much.

Secondly, I cannot understand the desire for more talking with collegues. Surely intelligent,professional people understand that you learn by "doing" not by "talking". Ironically,is that not what we are being told about how to teach our students.

Thirdly, always remember that we are experimenting with new ideas about pedagogy. Ideas which,when not followed up with investment and decent school support, are doomed to failure as can be patently seen in England, Scotland and |Wales.

A compromise here that will avert disaster is to introduce some CA in second and third year,shorten the JC exam,reintroduce levels and stop all this madness of having us all sitting around bullshytiing to each other about how exactly we teach and assess our classes. Teaching,like all relationship based activities, is simply not measurable. So while colleges exchanging ideas and experiences is always a great idea, it's totally not targettable and measurable.

acequion

Here are my main reasons for voting No:

How anyone can be in favour of reforms forced in by a Govt with a proven lack of concern for education is completely beyond me. Reforms which:
Dumb down standards with common papers.
Stop catering for the very weak by removing foundation level.
Introduce a thick layer of bureaucracy so that teachers waste time covering their tracks and doing more sitting around talking to collegues than teaching and educating.
Ape a failed English system.
And then after all that we all trot merrily back into the traditional LC.

jayo76

No voter here.
Do I disagree with continuous Assessment? No. Do I share all of the concerns of the poster above? Yes

I genuinely cannot see (and this is the main reason why I voted no) how these proposed reforms will result in any meaningful improvement for our education system. I definitely do see merit as said above in some form of CA in second and third year counting towards an overall JC grade and a reduced emphasis on exam for 3 years but unfortunately my experience of some form of continuous assessment in my subject at Leaving Cert has not been positive.

I am a History teacher, where 20% at Leaving Cert is awarded for a project submitted by students at Easter of 6th year which they have had two years to work on under teacher supervision. The average mark in this project nationally over the last 5 years has been 89-91 marks out of 100. This might sound great but in reality it is nonsense as it means that every student in the country is going in to the 80% terminal exam on an A grade. This lack of differentiation on the project to me is appalling and disheartening, it means that the hardworking motivated student who spends 18 months perfecting their research is receiving the same mark as the student who leaves it to the last minute and completes it under the supervision of a panicked teacher. Now you might ask, panicked teacher? but lets be honest a teacher under pressure from the dreaded comparison of their grades with the national average is going to do what they can to help this less motivated student get over the line. End result of this is that as the overall subject grade breakdown is going to have to conform to the bell curve and the project has provided no differentiation in this regard, the essay questions on the day of the exam are marked much tougher as they have to be in order to get your grade differentiation, in looking at recheck scripts in recent years I have seen many students marked very harshly on the written paper. This is my experience of continuous assessment in our system so far and it does not inspire with my confidence.

Equally I do fully believe that acceptance of this JC reform is just a step on the road towards it's full abolition.

I oppose very strongly the introduction of a common paper for my subject which to me is just a further dumbing down of education standards. With the introduction of points for those who get 30% in the Leaving Cert form 2017 it will be possible for a student who completes their project and answers the document study in the exam to obtain points if they do not even to attempt to answer the 3 essays worth 60% on the paper, in other words they know zero history!

Equally I have huge worries about as the above poster says the increased paperwork, unnecessary meetings and commitment to more hours outside of school on top of Croke Park Hours( hopefuly gone with rejection of LRA!!). These SLAR meetings will take place after school without doubt and for me the freeing up of one period a week does not appeal to me.

Equally there is a huge element for me of why agree to anything with a government which has decimated my pay and conditions, treats new teachers with disdain and has no interest in education other than saving money, My take home pay today is less that it was in 2008 despite all my increments, I have had to pay for the privilege of a free class or taking my coffee and lunch break as I had to take a paycut to opt out of an S and S scheme which I did not do anyway! Then last week I had to listen to already leaked threats as to how the Government will not honour proposed restorations of pay under Haddington Road if I vote no to LRA.

Hope this gives some idea of why I voted no!

katydid

jayo76 wrote: »

but lets be honest a teacher under pressure from the dreaded comparison of their grades with the national average is going to do what they can to help this less motivated student get over the line

A teacher who would behave like that shouldn't be teaching, At the end of the day, the only grade they should get is the one they deserve. If you give them any more than they deserve you are not doing them any favours.

I use continuous assessment for state certification in 95% of my work with students, and it would never cross my mind to do anything other than grade them fairly. I see no point in looking over my shoulder at national averages - averages don't take individual cohorts of students into account. I make no apologies for doing my best with the students I have, even if their grades are not as high as national averages. If anyone has a problem with that, they are free to scrutinise my marking.

I do take on board many of the other things you say, but you can't judge yourself or other professionals by your unprofessional and unethical colleagues.

jayo76

katydid wrote: »

A teacher who would behave like that shouldn't be teaching, At the end of the day, the only grade they should get is the one they deserve. If you give them any more than they deserve you are not doing them any favours.

I use continuous assessment for state certification in 95% of my work with students, and it would never cross my mind to do anything other than grade them fairly. I see no point in looking over my shoulder at national averages - averages don't take individual cohorts of students into account. I make no apologies for doing my best with the students I have, even if their grades are not as high as national averages. If anyone has a problem with that, they are free to scrutinise my marking.

I do take on board many of the other things you say, but you can't judge yourself or other professionals by your unprofessional and unethical colleagues.

Agree almost completely with what you say, I 100% believe that the only grade a student should get is the one they deserve but this is not my happening in my subject if it was how could it be the case that the average mark is 90%??

This project is state marked Katy not by the classroom teacher, it is submitted at Easter to the school authorities placed in a sealed envelope and retained until the day of the written LC exam. It is then marked by the same examiner who corrects the written paper.

Now I as an experienced teacher have made clear to my students I will not under any circumstances complete this project for them, making clear from the start to my class each year that for me to help a student who does not engage with the process themselves would be totally unfair to those students who are motivated to do so. I adhere strictly to the guidelines for this process which state the teacher should guide the student in their research process. However I know for a fact that this is happening in many schools and I have seen it first hand in my school with the completion of similar Religion booklets for Junior Cert where young, under pressure teachers are nearly writing the booklet.

As an experienced teacher I also fully agree with you that for me national averages comparisons are a waste of time, my only concern is do I feel my students reach their potential but just to let you know situation in our school, every year when we return to school we are presented with a print out comparison of our results with the National Average in terms of numbers sitting Higher Level and the numbers attaining ABC grades. This printout contains not just my subject comparison but also the comparison for all other subject departments. Seemingly our Principal feels this is a vital element of our cooperation with the School Self evaluation process!! Now I obviously treat this with a huge pinch of salt but there are teachers out there, young, desperate to retain their jobs, maintain national averages and it is very easy to see how they will be lets say willing to provide a little more guidance with the project. This is the unfortunate reality.

katydid

jayo76 wrote: »

Agree almost completely with what you say, I 100% believe that the only grade a student should get is the one they deserve but this is not my happening in my subject if it was how could it be the case that the average mark is 90%??

This project is state marked Katy not by the classroom teacher, it is submitted at Easter to the school authorities placed in a sealed envelope and retained until the day of the written LC exam. It is then marked by the same examiner who corrects the written paper.

Now I as an experienced teacher have made clear to my students I will not under any circumstances complete this project for them, making clear from the start to my class each year that for me to help a student who does not engage with the process themselves would be totally unfair to those students who are motivated to do so. I adhere strictly to the guidelines for this process which state the teacher should guide the student in their research process. However I know for a fact that this is happening in many schools and I have seen it first hand in my school with the completion of similar Religion booklets for Junior Cert where young, under pressure teachers are nearly writing the booklet.

As an experienced teacher I also fully agree with you that for me national averages comparisons are a waste of time, my only concern is do I feel my students reach their potential but just to let you know situation in our school, every year when we return to school we are presented with a print out comparison of our results with the National Average in terms of numbers sitting Higher Level and the numbers attaining ABC grades. This printout contains not just my subject comparison but also the comparison for all other subject departments. Seemingly our Principal feels this is a vital element of our cooperation with the School Self evaluation process!! Now I obviously treat this with a huge pinch of salt but there are teachers out there, young, desperate to retain their jobs, maintain national averages and it is very easy to see how they will be lets say willing to provide a little more guidance with the project. This is the unfortunate reality.

It is horrendous that there are teachers out there helping students to do projects; to be honest, if this could be proven, such teachers should not retain their jobs. They are not behaving professionally, and are giving the rest of us a bad name.

I honestly don't think that a teacher would be judged by the success or otherwise of their students. Principals know very well that if you have a weak class, you get the corresponding results. I teach in FE, and you can have very mixed classes, even a total variation of ability and motivation between classes. Last year, I had two childcare classes doing exactly the same subject. One came out with loads of merits and distinctions, in the other there were a load of failures, because that class had a lot of students with chronic absence and total lack of motivation. The anomaly between the two classes was noted at a course board meeting, and I pointed out the difference. That was the end of it. There would be reason to penalise a teacher for the sins of the students. I can't see that happening on any widespread basis, and if it does, it should be addressed by unions and nipped in the bud.

I think some younger/inexperience teachers feel they have to do this in order to look good, but it is important that it be dealt with. It is unnecessary, and harmful both to the profession and to the students.

jayo76

"I honestly don't think that a teacher would be judged by the success or otherwise of their students. Principals know very well that if you have a weak class, you get the corresponding results"


Could not agree with you more in that it is totally unreasonable to believe that teachers will be judged on the success of their students but it is a fact of life in our school and I am sure we are not alone. This year our comparisons sheet we were given contained an introductory paragraph that said the discrepancies between student attainment in different subject areas was a huge concern, meaning for example students in Spanish did worse than students in Italian. this statement obviously takes no account of whether the ability levels of the students in these class groups were similar. This is as you say astonishing/ horrendous whatever other word you can think of but our management had no problem making this statement.

Equally I am sure there are many workplaces where this would never happen.

katydid

jayo76 wrote: »

I honestly don't think that a teacher would be judged by the success or otherwise of their students. Principals know very well that if you have a weak class, you get the corresponding results


Could not agree with you more in that it is totally unreasonable to believe that teachers will be judged on the success of their students but it is a fact of life in our school and I am sure we are not alone. This year our comparisons sheet we were given contained an introductory paragraph that said the discrepancies between student attainment in different subject areas was a huge concern, meaning for example students in Spanish did worse than students in Italian. this statement obviously takes no account of whether the ability levels of the students in these class groups were similar. This is as you say astonishing/ horrendous whatever other word you can think of but our management had no problem making this statement.

Equally I am sure there are many workplaces where this would never happen.

I complain a lot about our workplace, but I find this appalling. In FE, we depend a lot on bums on seat, and struggle to fill places every year, so it would be important to be seen to be meeting certain standards. But our assessment system is so watertight that even the most part time teacher has nothing to fear about the issue of their students' marks being scrutinised.

If good systems are in place, this can't and doesn't happen. Projects for history should show the development of the student's own research, so that external hands would be very evident, and questioned.

jayo76

Yeah to get back on track I again agree that in a good system development of student work should be the key thing and should be very obvious. However for me this is not been measured or taken into account at all by the current grading of the Leaving Cert History project with it's ridiculously inflated marks. This experience has for me made me a little well maybe more than a little wary of how continuous assessment will be administered in the new Junior Cert which the Dept are keen to stress s a much lower stakes exam. This along with my genuine reservations about some of the details of the proposals was one of my reasons for saying No.

Time for some sleep, thank you for some very interesting discussion!

Alex Meier

it needs to be borne in mind that 22 hours is not the maximum time in front of students.

It's 23.3 hours with the added 1.3 hours currently unpaid . . . Thanks to the Haddington Road Agreement

acequion

It really is sad that the focus of educational attainment in schools has now been narrowed down to comparisons with national averages. It's merely one unfortunate consequence of the new obsession with paper work and accountability.

We are also given the figures in my school and told to discuss them at subject meetings. A pointless,boring exercise in my opinion.

I personally couldn't care less about national averages as all I care about are the students in front of me and how best I can get them to perform to their best. But I can well see how younger teachers would feel under pressure here and do whatever it takes to cover their own tracks.

Sad times for education.

linguist

One thing I agree with the ASTI leadership on is that the precise reasons underpinning both the rejection and the low turnout need to be understood. The Fightback group clearly produced a very detailed critique of the proposals from their perspective, along with an educationalist from UL. This clearly let them set the agenda and neither the union leadership nor indeed the DES made any attempt to respond.

Secondly, I am genuinely picking up the seething anger on the different payscales now. Our own staffroom saw a lot of change this summer and we now have a number of colleagues on the inferior scale. I would imagine that most schools are the same. I have never seen young teachers, often non-permanent, so vocal in their discontent and also militant regarding standing up for themselves. They expect their more senior colleagues to speak for them and they don't see the union taking their fundamental demand for equality seriously. I'm not saying that people didn't have specific concerns on junior cycle. I just also feel that there is a fundamental no compromise attitude among younger teachers affected by the pay inequality that will not budge until they see that matter addressed.

katydid

acequion wrote: »

It really is sad that the focus of educational attainment in schools has now been narrowed down to comparisons with national averages. It's merely one unfortunate consequence of the new obsession with paper work and accountability.

We are also given the figures in my school and told to discuss them at subject meetings. A pointless,boring exercise in my opinion.

I personally couldn't care less about national averages as all I care about are the students in front of me and how best I can get them to perform to their best. But I can well see how younger teachers would feel under pressure here and do whatever it takes to cover their own tracks.

Sad times for education.

Maybe the teaching staff, as a body, should point out the above to management, and remind them what the job of a teacher is - to deal with the cohort of students sitting before them, not to compare them others. If you do your best with them, you have, as an individual and as a school.

And management need to grow a pair as well, and point this out to the Department. As far as I am aware, funding is not dependant on achieving certain national averages - I could be wrong there - so why does this seem to be more important than acknowledging the work of teachers with the "raw material" they are given.

linguist

jayo76 wrote: »

"I honestly don't think that a teacher would be judged by the success or otherwise of their students. Principals know very well that if you have a weak class, you get the corresponding results"


Could not agree with you more in that it is totally unreasonable to believe that teachers will be judged on the success of their students but it is a fact of life in our school and I am sure we are not alone. This year our comparisons sheet we were given contained an introductory paragraph that said the discrepancies between student attainment in different subject areas was a huge concern, meaning for example students in Spanish did worse than students in Italian. this statement obviously takes no account of whether the ability levels of the students in these class groups were similar. This is as you say astonishing/ horrendous whatever other word you can think of but our management had no problem making this statement.

Equally I am sure there are many workplaces where this would never happen.

Sorry for quoting everything but I just agree so strongly with the above. The scourge of state exam statistics being thrown at teachers is really a cause of so much unwarranted stress to the point of bullying. As an experienced state examiner - in languages - I know that outcomes are hugely dependent on factors totally outside the control of teachers such as school context, socio-economic factors etc. I had an ordinary level LC class last year with several very difficult students. Yet, I felt so stressed coming in to view the results because bluntly that seems to go out the window once management get into stats mode.

katydid

linguist wrote: »

Sorry for quoting everything but I just agree so strongly with the above. The scourge of state exam statistics being thrown at teachers is really a cause of so much unwarranted stress to the point of bullying. As an experienced state examiner - in languages - I know that outcomes are hugely dependent on factors totally outside the control of teachers such as school context, socio-economic factors etc. I had an ordinary level LC class last year with several very difficult students. Yet, I felt so stressed coming in to view the results because bluntly that seems to go out the window once management get into stats mode.

Then instead of giving into the bullying, the teachers should, as a body, stand up it, and remind management of all the above factors that make averages a nonsense.

And management, who are no doubt under pressure from other forces, should be equally assertive.

acequion

linguist wrote: »

One thing I agree with the ASTI leadership on is that the precise reasons underpinning both the rejection and the low turnout need to be understood. The Fightback group clearly produced a very detailed critique of the proposals from their perspective, along with an educationalist from UL. This clearly let them set the agenda and neither the union leadership nor indeed the DES made any attempt to respond.

Secondly, I am genuinely picking up the seething anger on the different payscales now. Our own staffroom saw a lot of change this summer and we now have a number of colleagues on the inferior scale. I would imagine that most schools are the same. I have never seen young teachers, often non-permanent, so vocal in their discontent and also militant regarding standing up for themselves. They expect their more senior colleagues to speak for them and they don't see the union taking their fundamental demand for equality seriously. I'm not saying that people didn't have specific concerns on junior cycle. I just also feel that there is a fundamental no compromise attitude among younger teachers affected by the pay inequality that will not budge until they see that matter addressed.

I think it's wider than that,Linguist. I think there is a fundamental no compromise attitude right across the board with teachers. And it is perfectly understandable and justifiable. That's why I feel that this is completely the wrong time to come looking for major reforms. Even waiting until after the election would be a smarter step. But quite clearly the deep rooted malaise across all teachers of all ages needs to be addressed.

And as for the fightback campaign,neither the DES nor the mainstream union responded through a smug sense of superiority in my opinion. There is an Irish distaste for all things militant but I reckon the influence of fightback is underestimated. I actually think fightback is the best thing that ever happened to the ASTI.

ethical

It really is sad that the focus of educational attainment in schools has now been narrowed down to comparisons with national averages. It's merely one unfortunate consequence of the new obsession with paper work and accountability.

We are also given the figures in my school and told to discuss them at subject meetings. A pointless,boring exercise in my opinion.

I personally couldn't care less about national averages as all I care about are the students in front of me and how best I can get them to perform to their best. But I can well see how younger teachers would feel under pressure here and do whatever it takes to cover their own tracks.

Sad times for education.

Lucky you,some schools are told to calculate the figures themselves and then discuss them at dept meetings and fill up more paper for some 'failed teacher' (inspector) to peruse sometime!.It means that there is another box ticked for the Principal as s/he goes on its merry way to find more useless time consuming stuff to bully the class teacher with.

amacca

katydid wrote: »

It is horrendous that there are teachers out there helping students to do projects; to be honest, if this could be proven, such teachers should not retain their jobs. They are not behaving professionally, and are giving the rest of us a bad name.

Why do you immediately jump to teachers not retaining their jobs? - the system as it is leaves it almost a necessity for some teachers to engage in this or something like it, they may not do the projects for the students but they are under huge pressure to go very close to it....the system is at fault, not the teacher caught in the middle, you as a teacher should know this even if you are coming from a position of strength relative to those trapped into going way beyond the call of duty....to give just one example, picture this, you are in a school up on a one year contract pursuing your chosen profession..there are a number of other well established teachers in the same department as you with much more experience and better conditions (not just money mind you) - your class has a very high number of unmotivated students from backgrounds where education is not valued at all...the most marks they will probably get will come from a project but they are not even willing to put a few meagre hours of effort into that......do you let large numbers of your class run the risk of failing by giving them the project and all the information required to do it and let them sink or swim (as we all know it should be done) or do you coach/give extra time and help out anyway you can so yours won't be the class with 50% failure rate

the reality is that some teachers are faced with classes with large numbers of students that simply do not give a **** (not to put it too indelicately) but with the way things are going this won't reflect on the students themselves or lack of support at home etc - it gets dropped back on the teachers doorstep because there is little or no support for them and thats the popular narrative - the system heaps pressure on the teacher and eventually and completely understandably in my book they buckle..... its only going to get worse imo, an authority figure with very little actual authority or independence/protection is fighting a losing battle from the get go.

katydid wrote: »

I honestly don't think that a teacher would be judged by the success or otherwise of their students.

And I honestly think you must be living in cloud cuckoo land - this would not be the reality in any second level school I taught in.

katydid wrote: »

Principals know very well that if you have a weak class, you get the corresponding results. I teach in FE, and you can have very mixed classes, even a total variation of ability and motivation between classes. Last year, I had two childcare classes doing exactly the same subject. One came out with loads of merits and distinctions, in the other there were a load of failures, because that class had a lot of students with chronic absence and total lack of motivation. The anomaly between the two classes was noted at a course board meeting, and I pointed out the difference. That was the end of it. There would be reason to penalise a teacher for the sins of the students. I can't see that happening on any widespread basis, and if it does, it should be addressed by unions and nipped in the bud.

Ah - yes some principals take into account the cohort to some degree, some don't and apply pressure - the kind that want to turn your run of the mill deis school into belvedere college

Not to mention that the suspicion is always there in the back of a lot of teachers minds that the guy/gal down the road or even in the next room is going way beyond the call of duty

anyway whats required here to my mind is not punishing teachers for behaving very predictably in the face of competition/pressure but change the system so its taken out of teachers hands - one possibility, Project work to be completed under exam conditions on a cost neutral or as close to cost neutral basis as possible.....or a specified time period and strict conditions for completion of project work implemented nationally - project titles to be supplied at the start of this period - teachers only there in a supervisory/superintendent role, general area/strategies can be taught for a two week period beforehand.....I believe it could be done if the teacher was back up properly and given support when inevitably the bitching, moaning and bullying starts when for a change they don't bend over backwards...management to be reminded strongly of just what is required and their role as support for their colleagues.

katydid wrote: »

I think some younger/inexperience teachers feel they have to do this in order to look good, but it is important that it be dealt with. It is unnecessary, and harmful both to the profession and to the students.

Its human nature and understandable given the system we are currently engaged in creating for ourselves imo - I certainly don't blame the teacher...from my own experience I seen the introduction of JC science project work and imo in that case its also a function of how ridiculous some of the project work can be, the resourcing available in most schools and even the sheer awkwardness of the pro-forma booklet itself, - at times one would wonder what moron in the department is coming up with some of the stuff and do they realise what most 15 year olds are like and what kind of resources are available in some schools particularly...some of it seems so arbitrary and poorly thought out I often wonder if it has any educational benefit and furthermore I think its actually lacking in transparency and much more unfair than the system it replaced.

katydid

amacca wrote: »

Why do you immediately jump to teachers not retaining their jobs? - the system as it is leaves it almost a necessity for some teachers to engage in this or something like it, they may not do the projects for the students but they are under huge pressure to go very close to it....the system is at fault, not the teacher caught in the middle, you as a teacher should know this even if you are coming from a position of strength relative to those trapped into going way beyond the call of duty....to give just one example, picture this, you are in a school up on a one year contract pursuing your chosen profession..there are a number of other well established teachers in the same department as you with much more experience and better conditions (not just money mind you) - your class has a very high number of unmotivated students from backgrounds where education is not valued at all...the most marks they will probably get will come from a project but they are not even willing to put a few meagre hours of effort into that......do you let large numbers of your class run the risk of failing by giving them the project and all the information required to do it and let them sink or swim (as we all know it should be done) or do you coach/give extra time and help out anyway you can so yours won't be the class with 50% failure rate

the reality is that some teachers are faced with classes with large numbers of students that simply do not give a **** (not to put it too indelicately) but with the way things are going this won't reflect on the students themselves


.

I "jump" to teachers not retaining their jobs because, in my opinion, teachers who are unprofessional should be at the least, disciplined, and if their behaviour is chronic, they should not retain their positions.

If teachers are in danger of losing their jobs for behaving in a professional manner and not cheating by helping their students, that should be tackled by their union. The union, and teachers in general, should be tackling this anyway, as it certainly is not acceptable that teachers would be penalised for behaving ethically.

But in the scenario you paint of the new young teacher, are you really suggesting that a principal, knowing that the teacher was saddled with an unmotivated and weak class, would deliberately penalise that teacher?

I don't live in cloud cuckoo land - I just happen to believe that professionals should not take this kind of bullying lying down. If it t is something that needs to be dealt with seriously, at union level.

deiseindublin

I specifically titled this post as "2nd level teachers" discussion because I was sick of the other thread. Looks like I shouldn't have bothered.

rainbowtrout

amacca wrote: »

anyway whats required here to my mind is not punishing teachers for behaving very predictably in the face of competition/pressure but change the system so its taken out of teachers hands - one possibility, Project work to be completed under exam conditions on a cost neutral or as close to cost neutral basis as possible.....or a specified time period and strict conditions for completion of project work implemented nationally - project titles to be supplied at the start of this period - teachers only there in a supervisory/superintendent role, general area/strategies can be taught for a two week period beforehand.....I believe it could be done if the teacher was back up properly and given support when inevitably the bitching, moaning and bullying starts when for a change they don't bend over backwards...management to be reminded strongly of just what is required and their role as support for their colleagues.

And in addition to that, to have the projects packed off to the SEC on the week after the closing date. Or to be assessed in the schools (by external assessors) soon after that date.

Our principal does things by the book with deadlines for coursework. But I know in plenty of schools this is not the case, so students in those schools have a lot more time to get their project done.

I know for LC home economics the booklet is submitted in October/November and is corrected in December. Even if the science booklets weren't corrected during the school year, they could be submitted just like home ec.

amacca

katydid wrote: »

If teachers are in danger of losing their jobs for behaving in a professional manner and not cheating by helping their students, that should be tackled by their union. The union, and teachers in general, should be tackling this anyway, as it certainly is not acceptable that teachers would be penalised for behaving ethically.

What probably happens if they are inflexible (and I don't mean inflexible in a bad way) and play it by the book (as it should be done and as you suggest) is the results are poorer - the principal will then consider someone else for the position, someone more likely to get better results and make the school look better - its simply human nature.

I don't see the teacher as the one to blame here as the system is set up to heap the pressure on their shoulders.......the organisation of the system is the main problem, management to a lesser extent (although they have unfair pressures heaped on them as well)

I think its wholly unreasonable that you expect the weakest link (the teachers who have been deliberately weakened over the years to stand up for what is right here when a very significant proportion of them stand to lose the most by doing just that - to use a familiar saying they are caught between a rock and a hard place, at least thats how I see it)

Theres very little to stop the system being set up to take that responsibility out of our hands and still retain the educational benefit probably even enhance it

katydid wrote: »

But in the scenario you paint of the new young teacher, are you really suggesting that a principal, knowing that the teacher was saddled with an unmotivated and weak class, would deliberately penalise that teacher?

Thats subtly different from what I said or at least what I was implying (apologies if it was unclear - presumed I was talking to those who've worked in secondary and know the score)

Principals have their choice of applicants for most roles (perhaps irish would still be an exception) If someone comes in and plays it entirely by the book and it goes tits up then there will simply be someone new in the role next year who will operate in the grey area and most importantly get the results...thats the kind of pressure most of these "reforms" are creating........sad thing being they don't have to if they were organised properly to eliminate those kind of pressures being created.

I liken it to the increasing amounts of extra curricular taken as a given that young teachers coming in are expected to do.....technically its not our job at
all and the focus should be on the teaching but most applicants know they have to be willing to take on many additional extra curricular tasks etc and prove willingness at interview - this leaves an onus on them to do it when the get in for many many years afterwards - that adds up to many countless hours of unpaid labour with not even gratitude in return in some places - it also creates competition to do more and more - its not right but yes I am seriously suggesting that it happens and that its unlikely to be stamped out by suggesting that teachers themselves are at fault - especially the ones that are just in the door.......wtf are they supposed to do if they want the job?

katydid wrote: »

I don't live in cloud cuckoo land - I just happen to believe that professionals should not take this kind of bullying lying down. If it t is something that needs to be dealt with seriously, at union level.

Unions don't want to take that kind of stuff on....its a minefield for them and us to a certain extent....like I said, what I think should be taken on is the organisation of the system so it takes the pressure off our shoulders - there can still be CA/project work etc etc just organise it so there is less wriggle room for the management/teachers who will inevitably go way beyond and put unreasonable pressure on everyone else, don't expect those with the least power disrespected by almost all other stakeholders stand up and do what is right when everything is lined up against them.

The kind of workplace you think we operate in may have existed as recently as 10/20 years ago but its gone now....raise your head above the parapet (even for what is patently/demonstrably right and prepare to get fired upon/pay for it)

The really irritating thing is it will be the teachers that get blamed when it probably all goes tits up down the line despite the piss poor organisation and level of thought that has gone into what the real effect of these reforms on the ground will be in either their originally proposed form or what they have mutated into