2nd level teachers discussion of JC vote

evolving_doors

deiseindublin wrote: »

I specifically titled this post as "2nd level teachers" discussion because I was sick of the other thread. Looks like I shouldn't have bothered.

Ok I've deleted a lot of off-topic posts.
I don't think we can close off discussion on boards to just one group of people, however I think that we should put an 'off-topic' warning on using analogies with other education sectors. This has been refuted enough already in other threads.

Back on topic.

Mod

katydid

amacca wrote: »

What probably happens if they are inflexible (and I don't mean inflexible in a bad way) and play it by the book (as it should be done and as you suggest) is the results are poorer - the principal will then consider someone else for the position, someone more likely to get better results and make the school look better - its simply human nature.

I don't see the teacher as the one to blame here as the system is set up to heap the pressure on their shoulders.......the organisation of the system is the main problem, management to a lesser extent (although they have unfair pressures heaped on them as well)

I think its wholly unreasonable that you expect the weakest link (the teachers who have been deliberately weakened over the years to stand up for what is right here when a very significant proportion of them stand to lose the most by doing just that - to use a familiar saying they are caught between a rock and a hard place, at least thats how I see it)

Theres very little to stop the system being set up to take that responsibility out of our hands and still retain the educational benefit probably even enhance it






Thats subtly different from what I said or at least what I was implying (apologies if it was unclear - presumed I was talking to those who've worked in secondary and know the score)

Principals have their choice of applicants for most roles (perhaps irish would still be an exception) If someone comes in and plays it entirely by the book and it goes tits up then there will simply be someone new in the role next year who will operate in the grey area and most importantly get the results...thats the kind of pressure most of these "reforms" are creating........sad thing being they don't have to if they were organised properly to eliminate those kind of pressures being created.

I liken it to the increasing amounts of extra curricular taken as a given that young teachers coming in are expected to do.....technically its not our job at
all and the focus should be on the teaching but most applicants know they have to be willing to take on many additional extra curricular tasks etc and prove willingness at interview - this leaves an onus on them to do it when the get in for many many years afterwards - that adds up to many countless hours of unpaid labour with not even gratitude in return in some places - it also creates competition to do more and more - its not right but yes I am seriously suggesting that it happens and that its unlikely to be stamped out by suggesting that teachers themselves are at fault - especially the ones that are just in the door.......wtf are they supposed to do if they want the job?




Unions don't want to take that kind of stuff on....its a minefield for them and us to a certain extent....like I said, what I think should be taken on is the organisation of the system so it takes the pressure off our shoulders - there can still be CA/project work etc etc just organise it so there is less wriggle room for the management/teachers who will inevitably go way beyond and put unreasonable pressure on everyone else, don't expect those with the least power disrespected by almost all other stakeholders stand up and do what is right when everything is lined up against them.

The kind of workplace you think we operate in may have existed as recently as 10/20 years ago but its gone now....raise your head above the parapet (even for what is patently/demonstrably right and prepare to get fired upon/pay for it)

The really irritating thing is it will be the teachers that get blamed when it probably all goes tits up down the line despite the piss poor organisation and level of thought that has gone into what the real effect of these reforms on the ground will be in either their originally proposed form or what they have mutated into

All I can repeat what is by now a mantra - "Unions" are you and me and every teacher. Unions take on what their members lobby them to take on. If it's an important enough issue, and enough people care about it, they should go to their branch meeting, put it on the agenda, make it a motion to congress. Push, push, push.

Established teachers who have nothing to fear by being honest and acting professionally should lead by example, and not allow management to bully them. This would make it all the more apparent if weaker colleagues were then being bullied and would make the case stronger.

You may say this is all utopian, and of course it is the ideal, but we have to strive to the ideal, not throw our hands up in the air and rule out what is fundamentally doable, and good for many students, because some teachers are pressurised into behaving unethically.

Yes, the system is wrong. So don't just give in to the system. We're doing far too much of that these days.

man_no_plan

katydid wrote: »

Established teachers who have nothing to fear by being honest and acting professionally should lead by example, and not allow management to bully them. This would make it all the more apparent if weaker colleagues were then being bullied and would make the case stronger.

.

Management bullying? How exactly?

If someone posts about a teacher bullying a student they get jumped on around here yet tho kind of shoite gets trotted out here daily.

Look up a definition for bullying please and then remind yourself that all of the above scenarios are hypothetical.

History Queen

man_no_plan wrote: »

Management bullying? How exactly?

If someone posts about a teacher bullying a student they get jumped on around here yet tho kind of shoite gets trotted out here daily.

Look up a definition for bullying please and then remind yourself that all of the above scenarios are hypothetical.

By holding teachers on short contracts hostage to threats of less hours or by promising more hours if they "go the extra mile" as well as bringing up impending contract renewals in almost every conversation regarding that teachers work.

Have you worked in a school?

evolving_doors

man_no_plan wrote: »

Management bullying? How exactly?

If someone posts about a teacher bullying a student they get jumped on around here yet tho kind of shoite gets trotted out here daily.

Look up a definition for bullying please and then remind yourself that all of the above scenarios are hypothetical.

man_no_plan wrote: »

Management bullying? How exactly?

If someone posts about a teacher bullying a student they get jumped on around here yet tho kind of shoite gets trotted out here daily.

Look up a definition for bullying please and then remind yourself that all of the above scenarios are hypothetical.

I'm sure Katydid can speak for herself! But in the interest of uncrossing wires, I think (to the contrary) it is not her assertion that management 'are' actually bullying anyone. She's responding to others fears and assertions that this 'bullying' may happen if it's brought in. Her position is to say that if it 'were' to happen then it should be dealt with rather than accepted and I'm sure you wouldn't disagree with that. (That's what I took from it anyway.)

And yes these future scenarios about pressure to do x,y,z are hypothetical but nevertheless when staff are on short term contracts they get a bit nervous about saying no to anything. OK, it may not be the case in your school but I venture to suggest that the fear of being pressured to go outside standard procedure to make the school/student undeservedly look better are very real. That leads back to the idea of teachers being advocates rather than judges of their students work.

katydid

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I'm sure Katydid can speak for herself! But in the interest of uncrossing wires, I think (to the contrary) it is not her assertion that management 'are' actually bullying anyone. She's responding to others fears and assertions that this 'bullying' may happen if it's brought in. Her position is to say that if it 'were' to happen then it should be dealt with rather than accepted and I'm sure you wouldn't disagree with that. (That's what I took from it anyway.)

And yes these future scenarios about pressure to do x,y,z are hypothetical but nevertheless when staff are on short term contracts they get a bit nervous about saying no to anything. OK, it may not be the case in your school but I venture to suggest that the fear of being pressured to go outside standard procedure to make the school/student undeservedly look better are very real. That leads back to the idea of teachers being advocates rather than judges of their students work.

Actually I can speak for myself. And no, I wasn't suggesting it doesn't happen. It is unlikely to happen when a system is set up that can't be challenged or influenced, because the assessment process is clear to all sides, and when pressure is not put on teachers to reach certain averages. Clearly it happens to some extent in certain sectors of education.

My point is that it should be dealt with at the root. Rather than accepting that we can't have state certified CA because we can't trust ourselves or our colleagues to behave with integrity, we should deal with why some teachers are forced to act unprofessionally. It is a very serious matter and reflects on all of us, and it is something individual teachers should be lobbying their union about. And the unions should be taking the initiative on it.

When people say "the union should do X,Y, or Z" it's like as if they are talking about some body that has nothing to do with them. The union implements policy decided by members, so it's up to members to make this an issue.

To simply accept that teachers will behave unprofessionally because of bullying is a horrendous notion. If a student came to one of us and said they were being bullied, would we tell them just to accept it?