Buying a house, estate not 'in charge'

Recon

Hi,

Just looking for people's opinions on this. We're looking to buy a house in a housing estate and have been told by our solicitor that the estate is not 'in charge' so the local council isn't looking after it.

How big of a deal is that? Does it really matter at all or could it be a serious pain in the ass in the future?

athtrasna

What kind of estate is it, all houses or mixed houses and apartments? What is the state of the management company finances as of the most recently filed accounts?

riclad

The council is responsible for road, pavement repairs , public lighting .
IS the estate finished , all the houses are lived in or finished .
council may not carry out repairs if estate is not in charge.
SO its more risky to buy a house there than say an estate under the control of the council .
is there a management company .
is the original builder still in business .
some housing estates are run by management companys ,
which charge services charges to cut the grass and do basic maintenace.

Jen44

A lot of newer estates seem to be like this. I have just moved from an estate I bought in ten years ago and it was the same. The residents in the estate developed a residents association and used to collect 20 euro from each house once a year for maintenance, they bought a ride on lawn mower out of the money and one of the members used to cut the grass during the summers as there were three large green areas.

seamus

It's usually not that big a deal. As others have said, "in charge" of the council means that the council is charge of maintaining roads, street lighting and green areas. Depending on the estate they may also be responsible for footpaths, parking and playgrounds. Until an estate is in charge of the council, it remains in the charge of the management company.

All owners are equal shareholders (one property == one share) in the management company, and as such as responsibilities and liabilities of the management company fall to the owners. Hence why they pay managements fees for upkeep and such.

In many newer developments though, the councils are lessening their responsibilities more and more and only taking the roads and lighting, if even.

So while a development is not in charge of the council, your management fees will be slightly higher to pay for upkeep. The process of taking in charge also involves the council inspecting the area to ensure everything is up to scratch. If anything is not (e.g. some fencing missing along an external road), then the management company may have to pay to rectify it. Since that management company is you, then you have to pay.

Usually when a builder starts a development they lodge a bond with the local council. This bond is effectively an insurance policy - if the builder goes bust or runs away and there's remedial work required before the council can bring the estate in charge, then the council uses the bond to pay for it.

So in most cases the estate not being in charge shouldn't be a problem. But if it's an older estate (10 years or more since the last unit was finished) and it's still not in charge, your solicitor needs to do more digging and find out why not. If the development is newish (< 5 years) and/or there's still building work ongoing, then there's nothing to worry about and your solicitor is really just letting you know in the interests of full disclosure.

Pac2015

Recon wrote: »

Hi,

Just looking for people's opinions on this. We're looking to buy a house in a housing estate and have been told by our solicitor that the estate is not 'in charge' so the local council isn't looking after it.

How big of a deal is that? Does it really matter at all or could it be a serious pain in the ass in the future?

My in laws live in a gated estate in Clontarf that has a management company they don't have front gardens and its all bay parking a bit of a pain if you ask me they pay € 800 for the estate to be maintained but there are rules that are enforced on them like no pets, no putting your bins in a certain area and certain parking spots are for certain houses.
I have an apartment and there is a maintenance company after dealing with them for 8 years I made a decision never to buy a home where there is a maintenance company involved.

I pay property tax for all the things the council should be looking after yet the maintenance company still say they look after the same areas so I pay on the double.

Recon

Thanks for the replies.

The estate was built ~2007, all houses, mainly semi-detached. Most are lived in, there's ~5 out of 39 that are vacant, we've enquired with the estate agents for them and they're all apparently in the process of being bought.

As far as I'm aware there is no management company and the builders are gone.

April 73

If there is no management company & the estate has not been taken in charge then who is looking after the roads, the lights, the footpaths, the green areas?
Is it the developer looking after everything until the estate gets taken in charge?
Is there a voluntary residents association to look after the green areas?

You need more info in order to make a considered decision on this.
I spent 11 years living in an estate not taken in charge & could write a book on it!

seamus

There basically has to be a management company of some description - i.e. somebody owns the common areas. It may be the case that the management company has been struck off, or the builder never handed them over, but at the end of the day the common areas are owned by somebody, and the residents are going to have to create or reinstate a management company and arrange to have the management company take over the title of these areas.

Keep going, by all means. Make an offer, if it gets accepted, then your solicitor can do the heavy digging to find out what the full story is. As far as I can tell, you haven't actually gone sale agreed on anything yet? So your ability to get any proper information on this will be constrained until you do.

ted1

Pac2015 wrote: »

My in laws live in a gated estate in Clontarf that has a management company they don't have front gardens and its all bay parking a bit of a pain if you ask me they pay € 800 for the estate to be maintained but there are rules that are enforced on them like no pets, no putting your bins in a certain area and certain parking spots are for certain houses.
I have an apartment and there is a maintenance company after dealing with them for 8 years I made a decision never to buy a home where there is a maintenance company involved.

I pay property tax for all the things the council should be looking after yet the maintenance company still say they look after the same areas so I pay on the double.

Not quite true, I live in an estate managed by the council ( all semi Ds built in 84)
Insurance is 300 a year, bins about 300, garden upkeep about 250min + time spent doing it. + I have to look after the maintenance of the building

The 800 you pay covers all them. So not to bad.

seamus

^^ A lot of people do overlook what they get for the management fees - especially when it comes to things like bins and apartments blocks with lifts.

What annoyed me most about it though was that so much was communal and outside of my control. My costs were fixed and there was little I could do to reduce them. At least with a house you can arrange to have less waste, have more modest gardens, paint stuff yourself, etc etc.

delahuntv

Pac2015 wrote: »

My in laws live in a gated estate in Clontarf that has a management company they don't have front gardens and its all bay parking a bit of a pain if you ask me they pay € 800 for the estate to be maintained but there are rules that are enforced on them like no pets, no putting your bins in a certain area and certain parking spots are for certain houses.
I have an apartment and there is a maintenance company after dealing with them for 8 years I made a decision never to buy a home where there is a maintenance company involved.

I pay property tax for all the things the council should be looking after yet the maintenance company still say they look after the same areas so I pay on the double.

You need to learn what your management charge is for and what property tax is for.

Management charge does not cover what property tax covers.

Property tax covers everything from school wardens, street lighting, parks, social housing etc etc etc.

Management charge covers items within a PRIVATE development and includes building insurance in case of apartments, public liability insurance, maintenance such as common areas painting, landscaping and general upkeep of the area.

If you are paying management fees you are entitled to get a copy of annual accounts and everything will be detailed. The charge also includes a sinking fund in case of major work such as resurfacing road or full external painting.

As for estate not in charge - seems not all properties are sold. Once they are either management co takes charge or application is made to council.

Quite a normal situation for the op, but maybe find out who does current upkeep and what public liability insurance is in place for common areas.

Chemical Byrne

Jen44 wrote: »

A lot of newer estates seem to be like this. I have just moved from an estate I bought in ten years ago and it was the same. The residents in the estate developed a residents association and used to collect 20 euro from each house once a year for maintenance, they bought a ride on lawn mower out of the money and one of the members used to cut the grass during the summers as there were three large green areas.

Bad idea. Is he insured to use it? Who pays to fix it if it breaks? All of ye or yer man?
Better idea here is to just contract someone reputable to come in and cut it every fortnight. Less hassle for all involved and no fluting around with a machine.

Chemical Byrne

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

Bad idea. Is he insured to use it? Who pays to fix it if it breaks? All of ye or yer man?
Better idea here is to just contract someone reputable to come in and cut it every fortnight. Less hassle for all involved and no fluting around with a machine.

It's a lawnmower not a jumbo jet ffs. The above sort of anal crap would wreck your head.

Chemical Byrne

Yep, all well and good taking that attitude until it flicks a pebble into the eye of some passersby and ye have a big claim on yere hands. Who will pay out? The guy or all residents collectively?
People getting directly involved in the hands on maintenance of an estate are dicing with danger because none ofbthem know the full ins and outs of. Better to contract in facilities management company for instance if the estate is in any way large.
Untrained and in/underinsured fellas fooling about with lawnmowers in a public area is asking for trouble. Plus, who wants to be bothered with that sh!te.

Jen44

Thats the way it was done in the estate and in 10 years no such issue arose. The collection for the residents association was done yearly so monies collected went towards maintenance of the lawn mower etc. You will find that quite a few residents wanted to be bothered with that sh!te when the grass areas in the greens were so long that the kids couldn't play safely there.

Chemical Byrne

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

Untrained and in/underinsured fellas fooling about with lawnmowers in a public area is asking for trouble. Plus, who wants to be bothered with that sh!te.

Untrained? It's a lawnmower!!!

The world really going down a silly road if people go around with your attitude. Pay 100's per year to get a crowd in or just share it out among the people in the estate for far less like it should be for a couple of quid a year? I know which id be choosing and I'd gladly help be one of the people helping out.

You wouldn't want to see some of the machinery people use everyday of the week with no training if you are worried about a lawnmower. I've regularly worked in public areas with heavy and dangerous machines.