Going to be late for a flight? Call the gardai

seamus

katydid wrote: »

A. There was a taxi to be found. He didn't want to pay for it

Not until he'd already contacted the Gardai.

B. Surely you'd ring the AA before the Gardaí?

I'm not a member.

C. If you did ring the Gardaí, it would presumably be to take you, if at all possible, to the nearest place of safety, while you organised your next step, not to your final destination.

Yep. And that was the plan here. But the super told them to bull on, apparently. In those circumstances I wouldn't say, "nah, nah drop me off here". I'd let them carry on.

katydid

seamus wrote: »

Not until he'd already contacted the Gardai.

I'm not a member.

Yep. And that was the plan here. But the super told them to bull on, apparently. In those circumstances I wouldn't say, "nah, nah drop me off here". I'd let them carry on.

No, he contacted a taxi firm first, and was negotiating with them about the price. Then he rang the Gardaí. He was on his way in the Garda car when the taxi company rang back and said they'd do it for three hundred euro. He told them he was already on the way. (This is his own words on the radio on Sunday)

He was a member, he called the AA and left his driver on his own by the side of the road while he went off to the airport. If you're not a member, you can join on the spot, then they will come to you. That's what I had to do when I came back to the car park at Dublin airport only to find I had left my lights on and my battery was flat. It would never cross my mind to ring the Gardaí, I have to say. (Not that I could have in a private car park, but I mean in general) My problem, my job to solve it myself, not to call the Gardaí.

So just because the Superintendent said it was ok, he was happy to go along with it? Even though his using those Gardaí as his personal chauffeurs could have meant they were not where they were supposed to be if they were needed in an emergency like a road traffic accident? Selfish enough for an ordinary member of the public, super selfish and very stupid for a government minister.

feargale

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

"Do you want a pint to tell the junior minister to fcuk off with his ridiculous request, or do you want a transfer?"

Was that said?

listermint

seamus wrote: »

If I was en route to a work trip, the last thing I'd do is call a relative for assistance. I'd get a taxi and bill it to my employer.

If it was the middle of the night and I was in the middle of nowhere and no taxi to be found, would I ring the Gardai first? Yeah, I think I would.

You would ring the Gardai for a lift?!

You are more off the wall than that TD, In what world do you think its okay for the Gardai to give you a lift home or wherever?

I dont think you believe your own words tbh.

And 'stranded' in the middle of nowhere? there is no middle of no where in this country it takes less than 3 hours to cross it.

Phone a relative if you are stuck. The guards are not a taxi service.

Or as you said phone a taxi service or the AA.

micosoft

katydid wrote: »

A. There was a taxi to be found. He didn't want to pay for it

The state would have paid for it through expenses. Why should a politician pay for transport costs out of his own pocket?

katydid wrote: »

B. Surely you'd ring the AA before the Gardaí?

He was on the way to the airport. Do you really think waiting for the AA to come, diagnose the problem works in that situation?. What if they couldn't fix it (which is 99% of the time now if the problem is not out of fuel or puncture repair?

katydid wrote: »

C. If you did ring the Gardaí, it would presumably be to take you, if at all possible, to the nearest place of safety, while you organised your next step, not to your final destination.

He is not Joe Public though. He is a Junior Minister of the Irish State travelling on State business to Europe.

This would not make the news in any other country. Any politican in the US and certainly the UK and Germany would have been able to avail of this in these circumstances. It has more to do with begrudgery and anti government populist claptrap.

katydid

micosoft wrote: »

The state would have paid for it through expenses. Why should a politician pay for transport costs out of his own pocket?


He was on the way to the airport. Do you really think waiting for the AA to come, diagnose the problem. What if they couldn't fix it (which is 99% of the time now if the problem is not out of fuel or puncture repair?



He is not Joe Public though. He is a Junior Minister of the Irish State travelling on State business to Europe.

This would not make the news in any other country. Any politican in the US and certainly the UK and Germany would have been able to avail of this in these circumstances. It has more to do with begrudgery and anti government populist claptrap.

You're right, the state would have paid. But he still tried to bargain the taxi company down, and in the end didn't use them.

Yes, he was on his way to the airport. Yes, he should do what any of the rest of us would have done, and wait for help from the AA. Or relatives or friends. Us ordinary plebs wouldn't get a three hundred euro taxi fare refunded.

Are you seriously suggesting that every citizen who breaks down on the way to the airport should ring the guards and get a lift? The fact that he is a government minister doesn't give him a free pass to get to the airport by whatever transport is available. If he had to miss a pre-meeting briefing, tough luck. It could have been done over the phone. It wasn't the G7 summit.

In any other country, a politician who abused his power like this would have resigned by now. Instead he gets re-selected to run for office.

listermint

katydid wrote: »

You're right, the state would have paid. But he still tried to bargain the taxi company down, and in the end didn't use them.

Yes, he was on his way to the airport. Yes, he should do what any of the rest of us would have done, and wait for help from the AA. Or relatives or friends. Us ordinary plebs wouldn't get a three hundred euro taxi fare refunded.

Are you seriously suggesting that every citizen who breaks down on the way to the airport should ring the guards and get a lift? The fact that he is a government minister doesn't give him a free pass to get to the airport by whatever transport is available. If he had to miss a pre-meeting briefing, tough luck. It could have been done over the phone. It wasn't the G7 summit.

In any other country, a politician who abused his power like this would have resigned by now. Instead he gets re-selected to run for office.

Seem Seamus thinks thats what we should be doing.

Sure Rural Burglaries are up by thousands, whats the point having Gardai Vehicles out patrolling they can be ferrying the good citizens around.

seamus

katydid wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting that every citizen who breaks down on the way to the airport should ring the guards and get a lift? The fact that he is a government minister doesn't give him a free pass to get to the airport by whatever transport is available.

No, but exceptional circumstances notwithstanding, I see no issue with it.

As said, the AA will take time to get there, fix and diagnose (in fact, they may not be able to fix).

Likewise, you could call a relative, but they could be on the other side of the country and will take 90 minutes to get to you.

Would I ring a local Garda station and ask for assistance? Hell yeah. I have a flight to catch. Even a lift to Portlaoise would be a massive help.

I love how you're all pretending that it's like he demanded a Garda car bring him from his house to the airport for a family holiday.

I can guarantee the same complainers would be critcising him for expensing the €300 taxi or paying €1,000 to rearrange flights at short notice.

Sure Rural Burglaries are up by thousands, whats the point having Gardai Vehicles out patrolling they can be ferrying the good citizens around.

There's this language of fear and nonsense rhetoric again. How many buglaries took place because of this?

listermint

seamus wrote: »

No, but exceptional circumstances notwithstanding, I see no issue with it.

As said, the AA will take time to get there, fix and diagnose (in fact, they may not be able to fix).

Likewise, you could call a relative, but they could be on the other side of the country and will take 90 minutes to get to you.

Would I ring a local Garda station and ask for assistance? Hell yeah. I have a flight to catch. Even a lift to Portlaoise would be a massive help.

I love how you're all pretending that it's like he demanded a Garda car bring him from his house to the airport for a family holiday.

I can guarantee the same complainers would be critcising him for expensing the €300 taxi or paying €1,000 to rearrange flights at short notice.

There's this language of fear and nonsense rhetoric again. How many buglaries took place because of this?

Language of fear and rhetoric.

Why Seamus, do you keep calling facts 'Rhetoric'

Is that the only tool you have to wave bad press away?

Is this Rhetoric ?

http://traleetoday.ie/tralee-area-burglaries-rose-by-just-under-20-in-two-years/

THE amount of burglaries in the Tralee area rose by 19.4% in between 2012 and 2014.

New figures from the Central Statistics Office reveal that in 2012 there were 454 burglaries in the Tralee division, in 2013 there were 453 and in 2014 there were 542.

Is this Rhetoric ?

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/one-in-every-222-people-a-victim-of-burglary-219814.html

One in every 222 people in Ireland was the victim of a burglary during the first nine months of 2012 as the number of household break-ins increased by over 5%.

Is this rhetoric?

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/burglaries-on-rise-in-16-of-28-garda-divisions-356753.html

And Frances has the neck to blame Fine Fail 5 years on.


http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/fianna-fil-to-blame-for-increase-in-burglaries-says-minister-fitzgerald-31518636.html

Justice Minister Frances Fitzgerald has blamed the burglary epidemic sweeping rural Ireland on the "appalling" economy the Government inherited from Fianna Fáil.

I mean seriously! get off that horse Frances and own up to your decisions.

seamus

listermint wrote: »

Language of fear and rhetoric.

Why Seamus, do you keep calling facts 'Rhetoric'

I didn't dispute any facts. Your statement about burglaries is irrelevant bluster. If it was the case that Garda cars were ferrying TDs around the country day and night, you'd have a point.

Do you complain about rural burglaries every time a Garda car is used to drive a wayward teenager home? Or when they make a run to the chipper to feed a prisoner?

Unless you can prove that the use of this Garda car in this one-off exceptional instance directly allowed a crime to be committed, then all you've got is bluster and rhetoric.

listermint

seamus wrote: »

I didn't dispute any facts. Your statement about burglaries is irrelevant bluster. If it was the case that Garda cars were ferrying TDs around the country day and night, you'd have a point.

Do you complain about rural burglaries every time a Garda car is used to drive a wayward teenager home? Or when they make a run to the chipper to feed a prisoner?

Unless you can prove that the use of this Garda car in this one-off exceptional instance directly allowed a crime to be committed, then all you've got is bluster and rhetoric.

No, now you are being pedantic.

In one post you clearly said it was right and just to call the Gardai,in fact you said you would have no issues doing it yourself.

In short meaning its okay for people to do this, all the while we have an epidemic of home invasions and burglaries. The phoney attempt you have made to link this TDs misuse of the Gardai's resources to an actual crime is nothing short of misdirection. And anyone with any sense can see straight through it.

Using terms like rhetoric to bat away facts is a clear sign you have lost the debate.

seamus

listermint wrote: »

In short meaning its okay for people to this

Yes, it is. In exceptional circumstances. I don't see what's so incredible about citizens contacting the emergency services for assistance in urgent situations. It happens literally all the time. You have just decided that this one specific time is unacceptable because it happened to be a member of the Dail.

The phoney attempt you have made to link this TDs misuse of the Gardai's resources to an actual crime is nothing short of misdirection.

That actually made me LOL.

You're the one who has attempted to claim that this incident is related to actual crime, not me.

listermint

seamus wrote: »

Yes, it is. In exceptional circumstances. I don't see what's so incredible about citizens contacting the emergency services for assistance in urgent situations. It happens literally all the time. You have just decided that this one specific time is unacceptable because it happened to be a member of the Dail.

That actually made me LOL.

You're the one who has attempted to claim that this incident is related to actual crime, not me.

No you did, you asked me to show you what crime it was linked to.

And as you know well i was asking do you think this is a valuable use of resources considering all the facts and links i provided.

You still weirdly think that it is.

And no a vehicle break down is not an emergency services solution. You should know better than for a seemingly intelligent poster on these threads.

The AA is for breakdowns, relatives and taxi firms are for lifts.

The Emergency Services are for "Emergencies"

There are people on here who will defend any government TD at all costs for no apparent reason it boggles the mind.

foggy_lad

nice_guy80 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/it-was-a-quiet-night-minister-defends-taking-lift-from-onduty-gardai-to-airport-31557427.html

A JUNIOR minister has defended his use of a garda escort from Cork to Dublin Airport, saying the officers were having a quiet night and he had no other option.

*****************
Bit cheeky of the junior minister

especially as the meeting in Brussels wasn't until 24 hours later

and wasn't really that important

and a taxi driver offered to bring him for €300 (which he would have billed to the taxpayer anyway)

Not everyone has €300 to give to a taxi driver in the middle of the night although there can't be many TD's who wouldn't have at least one taxi driver they could get to do a bit of driving and pay them later in the week?

infacteh wrote: »

So the headline should now read, "Junior Minister Saves State €300 Taxi Fare!"

But at what cost? how much do 2 Gardai cost the state for 4 hours and what value is a patrol car to a rural area in dead of night?

jay-me wrote: »

Whatever about his use of the donut guzzlers to escort him to the airport.. At least the tax payer didn't foot the bill. But the 30 grand flight back from Latvia to vote on the referendum for gay marriage is a total joke! What a scummy little sh1t abusing his seat on the gravy train before his time! It won't bode well for him in the future! He should have waited till he had a better position to abuse his powers from!

The Taxpayer footed the bill and then some! We pay for the trip to Dublin Airport and we're at the loss of one night-time patrol car in a rural area and two Gardai.

mikehn wrote: »

kbannon wrote: »

From what I can see:
* he only called gardaí after contacting the AA and failing to get a taxi.
It was confirmed that there was a taxi available but he declined after hearing that the standard fare would be €300.
The Garda reputation has suffered badly in recent years, they are not really doing as good a job as they could, understaffed and poor morale are being bandied about as reasons. You can now add glorified Taxi drivers to their CV.
Frequent Garda patrols at night are a definite deterrent to crime, in my opinion they circumstances did not justify taking the car off patrol.
The Justice minister should insist on him reimbursing the full cost of the journey to the Dept of Justice and send out a memo the all concerned that this is not acceptable behavior.

Whatever value people place on two trained Gardai it is shameful for any sitting TD to abuse his position and use the Gardai as a taxi service just because he doesn't want to hand out the cash to a local taxi driver, He might have left himself short in Brussels for paying for the wife's Haircut, shopping trip etc

seamus

listermint wrote: »

And as you know well i was asking do you think this is a valuable use of resources considering all the facts and links i provided.

I never said it was a valuable use of resources. Neither is sending a squad car down to pick up a chipper for a prisoner. But it's not such an outrageous use of resources that I'm going to get all hot and bothered about it.

And no a vehicle break down is not an emergency services solution. You should know better than for a seemingly intelligent poster on these threads.

The AA is for breakdowns, relatives and taxi firms are for lifts.

The Emergency Services are for "Emergencies"

That's very absolutist. The emergency services, can, have and do frequently assist people in situations which could be described as urgent, but which aren't emergencies in the life-and-death sense.

There are people on here who will defend any government TD at all costs for no apparent reason it boggles the mind.

And there are people on here who expect absolute perfection from every politician at every turn and will make a big deal out of everything they do.

For the record, this TD is a complete muppet. But people seem to be making a lot of noise about this fairly inconsequential incident, which on the whole has a reasonable explanation. They don't seem all that concerned that he used the government jet rather than a commercial flight for a junket just so he could get home to vote, or that he's had five separate judgements made against him for unpaid debts and taxes since 2010.

In any other european country, this would be a non-story. Yet here we are 66 posts later.

katydid

seamus wrote: »

Yes, it is. In exceptional circumstances. I don't see what's so incredible about citizens contacting the emergency services for assistance in urgent situations. It happens literally all the time. You have just decided that this one specific time is unacceptable because it happened to be a member of the Dail.

That actually made me LOL.

You're the one who has attempted to claim that this incident is related to actual crime, not me.

In exceptional circumstances you contact the emergency services.

The hint is in those two words.

Nobody was dying. Nobody was injured. Nobody was having a baby.

Someone needed to get to the airport. Not an exceptional circumstance. It would be unacceptable for any Irish citizen to treat the emergency services in this way for this purpose.

katydid

seamus wrote: »

That's very absolutist. The emergency services, can, have and do frequently assist people in situations which could be described as urgent, but which aren't emergencies in the life-and-death sense.
And there are people on here who expect absolute perfection from every politician at every turn and will make a big deal out of everything they do.

.

Can you give examples of when they have brought someone to the airport to catch a flight?

katydid

seamus wrote: »

No, but exceptional circumstances notwithstanding, I see no issue with it.

As said, the AA will take time to get there, fix and diagnose (in fact, they may not be able to fix).

Likewise, you could call a relative, but they could be on the other side of the country and will take 90 minutes to get to you.

Would I ring a local Garda station and ask for assistance? Hell yeah. I have a flight to catch. Even a lift to Portlaoise would be a massive help.

I love how you're all pretending that it's like he demanded a Garda car bring him from his house to the airport for a family holiday.

I can guarantee the same complainers would be critcising him for expensing the €300 taxi or paying €1,000 to rearrange flights at short notice.

There's this language of fear and nonsense rhetoric again. How many buglaries took place because of this?

Yes, the AA will take time to get there, and to repair your car. And they will take you to the nearest point where you can access help, or may even take you home. That's how it works. Such are the joys of travelling by car.

The purpose of his flight is irrelevant. It was not a matter of life or death, or even an important high level meeting that couldn't be missed. It was a pre-meeting briefing with the Irish ambassador, which was in the event cancelled, and could have been done via phone or Skype.

You seem to think that the guards and emergency services are there to facilitate people going about their daily business. They are not.

seamus

katydid wrote: »

In exceptional circumstances you contact the emergency services.

The hint is in those two words.

Nobody was dying. Nobody was injured. Nobody was having a baby.

Someone needed to get to the airport. Not an exceptional circumstance. It would be unacceptable for any Irish citizen to treat the emergency services in this way for this purpose.

Again, very absolutist of you.

I would hate for us to have such a regimented Garda force who refused to assist any citizen in distress, regardless of whether it was a matter of life, death, or baby.

Here's a nice, warm-hearted story of Gardai giving a young lad a lift for an urgent, but not emergency situation:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/exams/leaving-cert-student-gets-garda-escort-to-exam-hall-after-missing-bus-31277441.html

Another warm-hearted story of a man in a pickle, with somewhere to be urgently, but certainly nobody would have died had he not made it:
http://www.independent.ie/regionals/fingalindependent/news/royal-escort-for-rivervalley-groom-27810155.html

Another story, a sad one, but again Gardai providing an escort for an important matter, but one which is neither urgent nor emergency;
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/berkeley-tragedy/bodies-of-four-berkeley-victims-arrive-home-31317774.html

And you can say, "what about, what about" till the cows come home. Are these "valuable" uses of Garda resources? Nope. How many people called for Gardai to be fired because they escorted some coffins from the airport? Oh, none. Because the media decide that some non-emergency escorts are OK, but others are not, on the basis of what will get people more annoyed.

This kind of thing happens every week. From a Garda perspective, it's actually an essential part of community life and being seen as integral to that.
It just doesn't happen to TDs very often and taxi drivers loving their five minutes of fame bashing people on the radio.

Edit: Here's one that should actually get you annoyed - Amy Hubermann getting an escort through heavy traffic to attend a prizegiving.
http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/amy-huberman-gets-garda-escort-3489650

listermint

seamus wrote: »

In any other european country, this would be a non-story. Yet here we are 66 posts later.

Thats completely untrue, but you knew that when you posted it.

katydid

seamus wrote: »

Again, very absolutist of you.

I would hate for us to have such a regimented Garda force who refused to assist any citizen in distress, regardless of whether it was a matter of life, death, or baby.

Here's a nice, warm-hearted story of Gardai giving a young lad a lift for an urgent, but not emergency situation:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/exams/leaving-cert-student-gets-garda-escort-to-exam-hall-after-missing-bus-31277441.html

Another warm-hearted story of a man in a pickle, with somewhere to be urgently, but certainly nobody would have died had he not made it:
http://www.independent.ie/regionals/fingalindependent/news/royal-escort-for-rivervalley-groom-27810155.html

Another story, a sad one, but again Gardai providing an escort for an important matter, but one which is neither urgent nor emergency;
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/berkeley-tragedy/bodies-of-four-berkeley-victims-arrive-home-31317774.html

And you can say, "what about, what about" till the cows come home. Are these "valuable" uses of Garda resources? Nope. How many people called for Gardai to be fired because they escorted some coffins from the airport? Oh, none. Because the media decide that some non-emergency escorts are OK, but others are not, on the basis of what will get people more annoyed.

This kind of thing happens every week. From a Garda perspective, it's actually an essential part of community life and being seen as integral to that.
It just doesn't happen to TDs very often and taxi drivers loving their five minutes of fame bashing people on the radio.

Edit: Here's one that should actually get you annoyed - Amy Hubermann getting an escort through heavy traffic to attend a prizegiving.
http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/amy-huberman-gets-garda-escort-3489650

Absolutist to state that emergency services are for emergencies? Hardly. It's stating a fact.

I presume you consider it perfectly reasonable for Ms. Huberman to get a garda escort to a prize giving or a student to get a lift to an exam? I mean, I'm sure they would say there were reasons to make this as much an "exceptional circumstance" as trying to make a plane. Others might say they should have got themselves organised to get to their destination with enough time to spare.

As for escorting someone through a security cordon, that is a totally different kettle of fish.

For Reals

He could pay for a taxi from his own pocket, (actually he probably would have got that back) or take Guards away from policing duties to save himself the hassle and a few bob, knowing the tax payer would pay. He chose the latter. There's your austerity. He should resign.

feargale

katydid wrote: »

Take a taxi.
No need to send apologies to Brussels. He could have got there later that day or early the next morning.

And who pays for the extra flight?

micosoft

seamus wrote: »

For the record, this TD is a complete muppet. But people seem to be making a lot of noise about this fairly inconsequential incident, which on the whole has a reasonable explanation. They don't seem all that concerned that he used the government jet rather than a commercial flight for a junket just so he could get home to vote, or that he's had five separate judgements made against him for unpaid debts and taxes since 2010.

This. The absolute muppets making a big deal out of some inconsequential and in my view reasonable whilst absolutely ignorant of the actual reasons we should be holding him to account. And fundamentally this is the problem. The Government may be a terrible bunch but the opposition are even worse. The Government is being criticised for all the wrong reasons (this, IW) but not being critiqued for the right reasons (fiscal responsibility, Governance etc).

For Reals

micosoft wrote: »

This. The absolute muppets making a big deal out of some inconsequential and in my view reasonable whilst absolutely ignorant of the actual reasons we should be holding him to account. And fundamentally this is the problem. The Government may be a terrible bunch but the opposition are even worse. The Government is being criticised for all the wrong reasons (this, IW) but not being critiqued for the right reasons (fiscal responsibility, Governance etc).

It's all connected. Why not pick them up on everything? Why ignore some things at all? A lot of Fine Gaelers and sadder still those duped spend all their time on here deflecting and the classic, 'the others are worse'. Well these are the people we have in government and they should be held to account on everything.
How anyone thinks fiscal responsibility is not related to the government's Irish Water fiasco or this, granted one of many, incident is bizarre.

katydid

feargale wrote: »

And who pays for the extra flight?

The taxpayer. Who else?

feargale

katydid wrote: »

The taxpayer. Who else?

And the taxpayer prefers to pay for a flight rather than an alternative?

feargale

katydid wrote: »

B. Surely you'd ring the AA before the Gardaí?

That depends on which AA you're a member of.

feargale

listermint wrote: »

Ring a relative like any other blood normal person would do if they were in trouble.

So, say you're an army or garda driver on the way to deal with some incident, state business in other words. Your vehicle breaks down in the small hours. So you call your cousin? I hope you're not expecting an invitation to his Christmas party.
The most sensible post here is no. 75. You devalue your standing as a critic of government when you engage in these contortions to score a point.
It is suggested that there are questions to be answered by him in relation to other matters. But if there are questions regarding this incident I doubt that silly suggestions like the foregoing one will leave him squirming.

katydid

feargale wrote: »

So, say you're an army or garda driver on the way to deal with some incident, state business in other words. Your vehicle breaks down in the small hours. So you call your cousin? I hope you're not expecting an invitation to his Christmas party.
The most sensible post here is no. 75. You devalue your standing as a critic of government when you engage in these contortions to score a point.
It is suggested that there are questions to be answered by him in relation to other matters. But if there are questions regarding this incident I doubt that silly suggestions like the foregoing one will leave him squirming.

His driver wasn't an army or garda driver. He was a civilian. Whom the bould Dara left on the side of the road in the dark to wait for the AA while he went on his merry way

katydid

feargale wrote: »

And the taxpayer prefers to pay for a flight rather than an alternative?

If the alternative is taking Gardaí away from their duty, certainly. New flight, three hundred euro taxi bill, we'd have paid anyway. He chose neither alternative, but rather to abuse his position and use the Gardaí as a personal taxi service.

micosoft

For Reals wrote: »

It's all connected. Why not pick them up on everything? Why ignore some things at all? A lot of Fine Gaelers and sadder still those duped spend all their time on here deflecting and the classic, 'the others are worse'. Well these are the people we have in government and they should be held to account on everything.
How anyone thinks fiscal responsibility is not related to the government's Irish Water fiasco or this, granted one of many, incident is bizarre.

No it's not all connected. The corrupt relationship that a large part of the electorate have with the political system in this country is the connection. The others ARE worse. The others ARE more corrupt. The others ARE less democratic. The others WILL make this country a worse place to be. Fine Gael are the worst party except for all the rest.

IW is an excellent example of how to move from a dysfunctional system to a fiscally responsible modern well run utility. Unfortunately there has been a cloud of lies and disinformation raised (which I'm sure you will raise despite being debunked many times) by the utterly dishonest elements of our political system. Only after the rabble-rousers got their easily duped rabble to protest violently and undemocratic against IW did we start seeing stupidity such as water grants and no penalties.

Holding a Government to account for going against populist sentiment, demanding free water etc, running a massive deficit instead of paying our way now (forcing our children to bear the massive burden of debt) and the constant deflection which always boils down to free money for some is the heart of the political problems in this country.

golfball37

micosoft wrote: »

No it's not all connected. The corrupt relationship that a large part of the electorate have with the political system in this country is the connection. The others ARE worse. The others ARE more corrupt. The others ARE less democratic. The others WILL make this country a worse place to be. Fine Gael are the worse party except for all the rest.

IW is an excellent example of how to move from a dysfunctional system to a fiscally responsible modern well run utility. Unfortunately there has been a cloud of lies and disinformation raised (which I'm sure you will raise despite being debunked many times) by the utterly dishonest elements of our political system. Only after the rabble-rousers got their easily duped rabble to protest violently and undemocratic against IW did we start seeing stupidity such as water grants and no penalties.

Holding a Government to account for going against populist sentiment, demanding free water etc, running a massive deficit instead of paying our way now (forcing our children to bear the massive burden of debt) and the constant deflection which always boils down to free money for some is the heart of the political problems in this country.

A well run public utility for Water is a great idea. A super quango stuffed with friends of members of the current government is not the way to go about it, in an environment when new politics was promised.

listermint

micosoft wrote: »

No it's not all connected. The corrupt relationship that a large part of the electorate have with the political system in this country is the connection. The others ARE worse. The others ARE more corrupt. The others ARE less democratic. The others WILL make this country a worse place to be. Fine Gael are the worse party except for all the rest.

IW is an excellent example of how to move from a dysfunctional system to a fiscally responsible modern well run utility. Unfortunately there has been a cloud of lies and disinformation raised (which I'm sure you will raise despite being debunked many times) by the utterly dishonest elements of our political system. Only after the rabble-rousers got their easily duped rabble to protest violently and undemocratic against IW did we start seeing stupidity such as water grants and no penalties.

Holding a Government to account for going against populist sentiment, demanding free water etc, running a massive deficit instead of paying our way now (forcing our children to bear the massive burden of debt) and the constant deflection which always boils down to free money for some is the heart of the political problems in this country.

Everything that is wrong with the current Government in 1 post.


You know they came in with a Mandate from the people for the people. Dont go around ignoring their Slogan of CHANGE, because it now doesn't suit you that it was said 5 years ago.

Its this type of post that paids credence to the presence of FG oriented posters who are unwilling to examine the huge amount of examples of incidents over the last number of years that display a contempt to the electorate.

No that is not rhetoric, it is what people on the street feel and think,those same people that smug politicians dont want to deal with unless they are begging at the door for a vote.

micosoft

katydid wrote: »

You seriously believe this wouldn't warrant comment in another country? You must be joking - it would be a resigning matter in the UK, and Mock the Week would have a field day.

No. It wouldn't. You don't know much about the UK do you? They actually have a Government Car Service with 90 vehicles and a work shop. We don't. So when necessary the Gardai step in. This would raise nothing. And the evidence is that it happens all the time yet you never see it in the English press.

Vertible latter day chicken lickens. No matter how tenuous it's a scandal.

On the other hand real issues are left aside.

micosoft

listermint wrote: »

Everything that is wrong with the current Government in 1 post.


You know they came in with a Mandate from the people for the people. Dont go around ignoring their Slogan of CHANGE, because it now doesn't suit you that it was said 5 years ago.

Its this type of post that paids credence to the presence of FG oriented posters who are unwilling to examine the huge amount of examples of incidents over the last number of years that display a contempt to the electorate.

No that is not rhetoric, it is what people on the street feel and think,those same people that smug politicians dont want to deal with unless they are begging at the door for a vote.

So much contradiction in one post. You state that "No that is not rhetoric" before actually engaging in rhetoric.

TBH your post represents everything wrong about the opposition to the current government. Fact free and full of hyperbole. A tendency to talk about ones views as that shared by "the common man on the street". A focus on interpretations of mandates which went of out fashion in the rest of the world after Gingridges "contract with america" nonsense. And only capable of having political discourse based on what "tribe" the other person is from.

Given I clearly criticized Alan Kelly on this thread for the OTHER stuff he has done it's clear you are a zealot who only accepts complete agreement - Fine Gael are entirely Bad. Opposition party I support all Good. And that, sir, is the problem in this country.

micosoft

golfball37 wrote: »

A well run public utility for Water is a great idea. A super quango stuffed with friends of members of the current government is not the way to go about it, in an environment when new politics was promised.

What has the board composition got to do with IW? It needs a board! Do you know how boards are formed? Do you want to abolish the ESB as well given their board is formed the same way? Should we abolish Quango's like the food safety authority because you have a daily mail style obsession with the word Quango?

katydid

micosoft wrote: »

No. It wouldn't. You don't know much about the UK do you? They actually have a Government Car Service with 90 vehicles and a work shop. We don't. So when necessary the Gardai step in. This would raise nothing. And the evidence is that it happens all the time yet you never see it in the English press.

Vertible latter day chicken lickens. No matter how tenuous it's a scandal.

On the other hand real issues are left aside.

I know that in the UK politicians have resigned over issues that have been brought to the public's attention. Remember the parliamentary expenses scandal a few years ago? A few heads rolled there. True, they are mainly over financial or sexual issues, but this is a serious issue too, of taking Gardaí off active duty, at a time when rural crime and home invasions are rife. Mind you, the superintendent involved has some explaining to do.

When did any politician resign over anything here?

It wasn't necessary for the guards to step in. It wasn't a matter of life and death, or even of an urgent meeting. He could have taken a taxi, he could have caught a later flight.

Indeed, there are other issues in the public domain, and they shouldn't be ignored, but that doesn't mean we should ignore abuse of power. If we take our eye off the ball in the little things, they snowball into a culture of abuse.

feargale

katydid wrote: »

His driver wasn't an army or garda driver. He was a civilian. Whom the bould Dara left on the side of the road in the dark to wait for the AA while he went on his merry way

Wasn't his driver on state business?

katydid

feargale wrote: »

Wasn't his driver on state business?

So?

micosoft

katydid wrote: »

I know that in the UK politicians have resigned over issues that have been brought to the public's attention. Remember the parliamentary expenses scandal a few years ago? A few heads rolled there. True, they are mainly over financial or sexual issues, but this is a serious issue too, of taking Gardaí off active duty, at a time when rural crime and home invasions are rife. Mind you, the superintendent involved has some explaining to do.

Are you comparing a lift to the airport for a meeting on government business an sexual scandal? Do you know what perspective and proportion mean?

katydid wrote: »

When did any politician resign over anything here?

Alan Shatter a year ago.

katydid wrote: »

It wasn't necessary for the guards to step in. It wasn't a matter of life and death, or even of an urgent meeting. He could have taken a taxi, he could have caught a later flight.

It wasn't unnecessary for the Gardai to assist a minister on his way to state business. You have incorrectly defined the purpose, duties and responsibilities of an Garda Siochana repeatedly. If you don't know their purpose it's hard for you to meaningfully criticize them.

katydid wrote: »

Indeed, there are other issues in the public domain, and they shouldn't be ignored, but that doesn't mean we should ignore abuse of power. If we take our eye off the ball in the little things, they snowball into a culture of abuse.

But they are because of people like yourself who discredit reasonable opposition and compare being given a lift to the airport due to car breakdown to some sort of sexual scandal. It's hard to take this type of opposition seriously.

katydid

micosoft wrote: »

Are you comparing a lift to the airport for a meeting on government business an sexual scandal? Do you know what perspective and proportion mean?


Alan Shatter a year ago.


It wasn't unnecessary for the Gardai to assist a minister on his way to state business. You have incorrectly defined the purpose, duties and responsibilities of an Garda Siochana repeatedly. If you don't know their purpose it's hard for you to meaningfully criticize them.


But they are because of people like yourself who discredit reasonable opposition and compare being given a lift to the airport due to car breakdown to some sort of sexual scandal. It's hard to take this type of opposition seriously.

I'm comparing using our police force for your transport, when there were alternatives, as on a par with misusing parliamentary funds. Of course it was unnecessary for the Gardaí to perform a service which a taxi firm was ready, willing and able to perform. In the time the Gardaí were operating this chauffeur service, they could have been needed to deal with a burglary or road traffic accident, and would have been unavailable. Dealing with these issues is their primary purpose, not driving government ministers around in the middle of the night. If a driver is assigned from the force to a particular driving job, so be it, but these Gardaí were on duty to provide assistance and support in emergencies, if needed.

Oh yes, I'd forgotten about Shatter. Fair play to him. A rare creature, a politician who has the decency to acknowledge he did wrong.

micosoft

katydid wrote: »

I'm comparing using our police force for your transport, when there were alternatives, as on a par with misusing parliamentary funds. Of course it was unnecessary for the Gardaí to perform a service which a taxi firm was ready, willing and able to perform. In the time the Gardaí were operating this chauffeur service, they could have been needed to deal with a burglary or road traffic accident, and would have been unavailable. Dealing with these issues is their primary purpose, not driving government ministers around in the middle of the night. If a driver is assigned from the force to a particular driving job, so be it, but these Gardaí were on duty to provide assistance and support in emergencies, if needed.

Oh yes, I'd forgotten about Shatter. Fair play to him. A rare creature, a politician who has the decency to acknowledge he did wrong.

No. You went on a complete tangent talking about sexual abuse and fraud. This is neither. You have demonstrably not shown that this was an abuse of Garda time or resources. You again create a strawman definition of what the Gardai do and by definition exclude the many other roles they perform in this country. And that's leaving aside the clear evidence that Kelly confirmed no incident was ongoing and that he would be dumped in the event of one.

Fair play to acknowledge that less then a year ago a politician from the ruling party resigned. There have been plenty of resignations over the past few years. And a number of politicians have gone to prison. That's a long distance away from nobody being accountable ever.

As an earlier poster pointed out, you do a disservice to political opposition when you create mountains our of every perceived slight or wrongdoing - a bit like a left wing Fox News (shudder). It's not that helpful and as other posters have pointed out there are a laundry list of other items that this particular politician could rightfully be criticized for.

The use of Gardai for urgent Government business is fine by me and the use in this case was proportionate and reasonable.

katydid

micosoft wrote: »

No. You went on a complete tangent talking about sexual abuse and fraud. This is neither. You have demonstrably not shown that this was an abuse of Garda time or resources. You again create a strawman definition of what the Gardai do and by definition exclude the many other roles they perform in this country. And that's leaving aside the clear evidence that Kelly confirmed no incident was ongoing and that he would be dumped in the event of one.

Fair play to acknowledge that less then a year ago a politician from the ruling party resigned. There have been plenty of resignations over the past few years. And a number of politicians have gone to prison. That's a long distance away from nobody being accountable ever.

As an earlier poster pointed out, you do a disservice to political opposition when you create mountains our of every perceived slight or wrongdoing - a bit like a left wing Fox News (shudder). It's not that helpful and as other posters have pointed out there are a laundry list of other items that this particular politician could rightfully be criticized for.

The use of Gardai for urgent Government business is fine by me and the use in this case was proportionate and reasonable.

Abusing the state security service is on a par with fraud. More overt, but abuse nonetheless. To relegate such abuse to a minor incident is what is doing politics a disservice; if we accept relatively minor incidents, where do we draw the line? A politician should not abuse their position EVER.

micosoft

katydid wrote: »

Abusing the state security service is on a par with fraud. More overt, but abuse nonetheless. To relegate such abuse to a minor incident is what is doing politics a disservice; if we accept relatively minor incidents, where do we draw the line? A politician should not abuse their position EVER.

Lol. The Gardai are now the "State Security Service". Good to know the Stazi have been reincarnated to enforce your will. I repeat. You don't actually understand what the Gardai are.

feargale

feargale wrote: »

Wasn't his driver on state business?

katydid wrote: »

So?

So a poster made the ridiculous suggestion that when a car on state business breaks down in the early hours a relative should be phoned. Now there appears to be an objection to the driver being left at the scene. Maybe the car should have been left at the mercy of the thieves.
I haven't a clue who I'll vote for next time, and I hold no brief for the minister in question or the present government, and I came to this thread with an open mind, but one poster made a very valid point, that this type of nitpicking deflects from the real abuses that are going on.
I've had it with this thread.

katydid

feargale wrote: »

So a poster made the ridiculous suggestion that when a car on state business breaks down in the early hours a relative should be phoned. Now there appears to be an objection to the driver being left at the scene. Maybe the car should have been left at the mercy of the thieves.
I haven't a clue who I'll vote for next time, and I hold no brief for the minister in question or the present government, and I came to this thread with an open mind, but one poster made a very valid point, that this type of nitpicking deflects from the real abuses that are going on.
I've had it with this thread.

The reason I pointed out about the driver being left at the scene is that someone talked about how you couldn't possibly leave someone at the side of the road in the dark because it was dangerous. So, too dangerous for the minister, but not for his driver. Double standards?

I'm not picking any nits. Simply pointing out that to use garda drivers when alternatives were available is an abuse of power, especially at a time when rural crime is rife, and those gardaí could have been needed to deal with an incident, or indeed a road traffic accident.

FG came into power claiming it was going to change the political landscape, but it has shown time and time again that is just as happy to engage in cronyism and misuse of power as its predecessors. All these incidents may be relatively minor, but incrementally they show a disdain and a sense of entitlement that is breathtaking AND depressing.

katydid

micosoft wrote: »

Lol. The Gardai are now the "State Security Service". Good to know the Stazi have been reincarnated to enforce your will. I repeat. You don't actually understand what the Gardai are.

They are the security service of our state. That is a fact, whether or not you like that.

I understand that the gardaí are not there to provide a private chauffeur service to politicians. Their function is to provide security and help to the citizens of this state. Citizens who, for example, may find themselves the victim of a burglary or physical attack in the middle of the night, or indeed a road traffic accident. Fat lot of use those particular guards would be to them, halfway to Dublin airport.

JustTheOne

katydid wrote: »

They are the security service of our state. That is a fact, whether or not you like that.

I understand that the gardaí are not there to provide a private chauffeur service to politicians. Their function is to provide security and help to the citizens of this state. Citizens who, for example, may find themselves the victim of a burglary or physical attack in the middle of the night, or indeed a road traffic accident. Fat lot of use those particular guards would be to them, halfway to Dublin airport.

Since when is a Minister not a citizen of the state?

If they done this for a pregnant woman they would be hailed as heroes or if they left her on the side of the road they wouldbe vilified.

They are there to help citizens and all I seen was then helping a citizen in need.

katydid

JustTheOne wrote: »

Since when is a Minister not a citizen of the state?

If they done this for a pregnant woman they would be hailed as heroes or if they left her on the side of the road they wouldbe vilified.

They are there to help citizens and all I seen was then helping a citizen in need.

The minister was not pregnant. . Nobody's health or life was in danger. He was going to miss a flight.

You are not comparing like with like. The Gardaí should, and do, assist citizens who are in need. Serious need.