Going to be late for a flight? Call the gardai

JustTheOne

katydid wrote: »

The minister was not pregnant. . Nobody's health or life was in danger. He was going to miss a flight.

You are not comparing like with like. The Gardaí should, and do, assist citizens who are in need. Serious need.

Must remember that the next time I see someone asking the gards for directions in town.

Serious abuse of power there. Those people aren't in serious need.

katydid

JustTheOne wrote: »

Must remember that the next time I see someone asking the gards for directions in town.

Serious abuse of power there. Those people aren't in serious need.

Is the Garda likely to get in the car with you and drives you to where you want to go? Are you a politician with influence, or just a Joe Soap?

ODEON123

katydid wrote: »

The minister was not pregnant. . Nobody's health or life was in danger. He was going to miss a flight.

You are not comparing like with like. The Gardaí should, and do, assist citizens who are in need. Serious need.

Huge differnence though between a pregnant women and a minister, it put the guards on the spot and they didnt really have a choice

They had to leave their district what would have happened if there was a serious incident or rtc where they were needed there would huge uproar

I think the guards should have said they cant leave without the supers permission or something along the lines of that

katydid

ODEON123 wrote: »

Huge differnence though between a pregnant women and a minister, it put the guards on the spot and they didnt really have a choice

They had to leave their district what would have happened if there was a serious incident or rtc where they were needed there would huge uproar

I think the guards should have said they cant leave without the supers permission or something along the lines of that

They did get his permission. He has questions to answer, too.

feargale

katydid wrote: »

His driver wasn't an army or garda driver. He was a civilian. Whom the bould Dara left on the side of the road in the dark to wait for the AA while he went on his merry way

Ok. I get it. Minister Dara should have waited on the side of the road for the AA while his driver was sent to Brussels to make a contribution to the intergovernmental conference on immigration.

katydid

feargale wrote: »

Ok. I get it. Minister Dara should have waited on the side of the road to wait for the AA while his driver was sent to Brussels to make a contribution to the intergovernmental conference on immigration.

Don't be ridiculous. The minister should have waited by the side of the road with his driver or taken a taxi to the airport. Those were the only valid ethical choices.

micosoft

katydid wrote: »

They are the security service of our state. That is a fact, whether or not you like that.

No they are not the security service of our state. They are the police service of Ireland. They have many roles that they conduct within that. One of them is to

katydid wrote: »

I understand that the gardaí are not there to provide a private chauffeur service to politicians. Their function is to provide security and help to the citizens of this state. Citizens who, for example, may find themselves the victim of a burglary or physical attack in the middle of the night, or indeed a road traffic accident. Fat lot of use those particular guards would be to them, halfway to Dublin airport.

Once again you understand wrong. They provide Garda drivers to a number of political positions full time.

Their function is to keep the peace. They do many things within that role. You seem absolutely insistent in declaring the Gardai are things they manifestly are not or create a bizarrely narrow definition of their role and duties. You are simply incorrect. The Gardai taking a junior minister to the Airport falls under their remit. Simply because you don't like the political party/politician involved does not change that.

katydid

micosoft wrote: »

No they are not the security service of our state. They are the police service of Ireland. They have many roles that they conduct within that. One of them is to



Once again you understand wrong. They provide Garda drivers to a number of political positions full time.

Their function is to keep the peace. They do many things within that role. You seem absolutely insistent in declaring the Gardai are things they manifestly are not or create a bizarrely narrow definition of their role and duties. You are simply incorrect. The Gardai taking a junior minister to the Airport falls under their remit. Simply because you don't like the political party/politician involved does not change that.

So who IS responsible for the security of our state, if not our security forces, the Gardaí and the army? You keep the peace by ensuring security.

How does taking a person to the airport to catch a flight fall under Garda remit? His job is immaterial, he is a citizen of the state who was in a position to make other arrangements but chose not to.

oscarBravo

katydid wrote: »

His job is immaterial, he is a citizen of the state...

So is the President, but I always see some army chappie following him around. What's so all-fired special about him, that he gets to take an army chappie away from fighting a war, or whatever the army's actual job is?

katydid

oscarBravo wrote: »

So is the President, but I always see some army chappie following him around. What's so all-fired special about him, that he gets to take an army chappie away from fighting a war, or whatever the army's actual job is?

Cos he represents our country. An attack on him is an attack on the state.

Relevance to giving a guy a lift to Dublin in the middle of the night?

oscarBravo

katydid wrote: »

Cos he represents our country.

Ah, so his job is not immaterial. Gotcha.

Relevance to giving a guy a lift to Dublin in the middle of the night?

None, I guess, if you are dividing the country's citizens into two segments: the President, whose job matters, and everyone else, whose jobs are irrelevant.

Just so we're clear: if the President's car broke down, would it have been a disgraceful, egregious, fraudulent and despicable abuse of his position for him to get a lift in a Garda car, or should he have called a taxi also?

Sam Russell

oscarBravo wrote: »

Ah, so his job is not immaterial. Gotcha. None, I guess, if you are dividing the country's citizens into two segments: the President, whose job matters, and everyone else, whose jobs are irrelevant.

Just so we're clear: if the President's car broke down, would it have been a disgraceful, egregious, fraudulent and despicable abuse of his position for him to get a lift in a Garda car, or should he have called a taxi also?

Actually, it did. Mary MacAleese was in the Pres-mobile when it had a flat tyre, and was accommodated in the Garda car that was escorting her. Happened on the M50. That is why She had a Garda escort to cover such eventualities.

Enda has one too - for the same reason. His car is counted as a Garda car anyway.

ODEON123

Sam Russell wrote: »

Actually, it did. Mary MacAleese was in the Pres-mobile when it had a flat tyre, and was accommodated in the Garda car that was escorting her. Happened on the M50. That is why She had a Garda escort to cover such eventualities.

Enda has one too - for the same reason. His car is counted as a Garda car anyway.

MAkes sense plus there is a bit of a difference between the taoiseach or the president and a junior minister :P

oscarBravo

ODEON123 wrote: »

MAkes sense plus there is a bit of a difference between the taoiseach or the president and a junior minister :P

...but no difference whatsoever between a junior minister and the average Joe, apparently.

micosoft

katydid wrote: »

Cos he represents our country.

What did you think the minister was doing in Europe? Representing himself?

micosoft

katydid wrote: »

So who IS responsible for the security of our state, if not our security forces, the Gardaí and the army? You keep the peace by ensuring security.

How does taking a person to the airport to catch a flight fall under Garda remit? His job is immaterial, he is a citizen of the state who was in a position to make other arrangements but chose not to.

The Special Detective Unit (SDU) are responsible for domestic state security.

The Directorate of Military Intelligence operates on domestic and foreign intelligence.

I don't believe either of these units were involved in transporting the junior minister to the airport so we can rest easy in our beds.

ODEON123

micosoft wrote: »

The Special Detective Unit (SDU) are responsible for domestic state security.

The Directorate of Military Intelligence operates on domestic and foreign intelligence.

I don't believe either of these units were involved in transporting the junior minister to the airport so we can rest easy in our beds.

SDU would be too busy anyway but the military on the other hand...

katydid

micosoft wrote: »

The Special Detective Unit (SDU) are responsible for domestic state security.

The Directorate of Military Intelligence operates on domestic and foreign intelligence.

I don't believe either of these units were involved in transporting the junior minister to the airport so we can rest easy in our beds.

The Gardaí are responsible for maintaining peace and preventing crime. That is part of the security service of this state.

From the Garda website:

"
Some of An Garda Síochána’s core functions include:

• the detection and prevention of crime;
• ensuring our nation’s security;
• reducing the incidence of fatal and serious injuries on our roads and improving road safety;
• working with communities to prevent anti-social behaviour;
• promoting an inter-agency approach to problem solving and improving the overall quality of life"

Note the second bullet point. I've bolded it for your convenience.

katydid

micosoft wrote: »

What did you think the minister was doing in Europe? Representing himself?

Representing his constituents. Not Ireland.

ODEON123

katydid wrote: »

The Gardaí are responsible for maintaining peace and preventing crime. That is part of the security service of this state.

From the Garda website:

"
Some of An Garda Síochána’s core functions include:

• the detection and prevention of crime;
• ensuring our nation’s security;
• reducing the incidence of fatal and serious injuries on our roads and improving road safety;
• working with communities to prevent anti-social behaviour;
• promoting an inter-agency approach to problem solving and improving the overall quality of life"

Note the second bullet point. I've bolded it for your convenience.

Nations security can be a pretty broad topic like technically everything is ensuring the security of the nation

Triangle

I think the super who told them to bring him (if this is true) should be reprimanded.
If he did this, then he doesn't understand the role of a police force and seems like he was just looking to curry favour with a local td.
Either way, it was a bad call from a senior officer. The td was wrong to accept the lift too.

If this happened to me then the flight would be rearranged, especially given the non importance of the first meeting that was scheduled.

Anyone who believes different is a supporter of cronyism imo.

katydid

ODEON123 wrote: »

Nations security can be a pretty broad topic like technically everything is ensuring the security of the nation

Yes...

micosoft

katydid wrote: »

The Gardaí are responsible for maintaining peace and preventing crime. That is part of the security service of this state.

From the Garda website:

"
Some of An Garda Síochána’s core functions include:

• the detection and prevention of crime;
• ensuring our nation’s security;
• reducing the incidence of fatal and serious injuries on our roads and improving road safety;
• working with communities to prevent anti-social behaviour;
• promoting an inter-agency approach to problem solving and improving the overall quality of life"

Note the second bullet point. I've bolded it for your convenience.

Great! We are finally getting somewhere! Did you notice the other bullet points? i.e. the OTHER things the Gardai do other then state security. Do you understand that State Security is something a relatively small part of the Garda do? That the vast majority of Gardai have nothing to do with State Security?

Do you now accept that the Garda do other things then State Security which is your assertion?

micosoft

katydid wrote: »

Representing his constituents. Not Ireland.

Right. We've established you don't know what the Garda do. Now on to politicians....

Is he an MEP?

Do you know the difference between an MEP and a TD who happens to be Minister of State with responsibility for European Affairs?

Do you think every constituency has a Minister of State with responsibility for European Affairs?

Do you think he was representing Cork North Centrals response to the Syrian Refugee Crisis in Brussels?

micosoft

Triangle wrote: »

I think the super who told them to bring him (if this is true) should be reprimanded.
If he did this, then he doesn't understand the role of a police force and seems like he was just looking to curry favour with a local td.
Either way, it was a bad call from a senior officer. The td was wrong to accept the lift too.

If this happened to me then the flight would be rearranged, especially given the non importance of the first meeting that was scheduled.

Anyone who believes different is a supporter of cronyism imo.

I put it to you that a Garda superintendent knows understand more than you about the role of the police force in Ireland.

Anyone that believes different is a supporter of bull**** IMO.

katydid

micosoft wrote: »

Right. We've established you don't know what the Garda do. Now on to politicians....

Is he an MEP?

Do you know the difference between an MEP and a TD who happens to be Minister of State with responsibility for European Affairs?

Do you think every constituency has a Minister of State with responsibility for European Affairs?

Do you think he was representing Cork North Centrals response to the Syrian Refugee Crisis in Brussels?

Since you didn't know that part of an Garda Siochána's role is the security of this state, I'm not sure what would be the point. You seem a little confused.

An elected politician represents his or her constituents, whether they are a backbencher or in cabinet. Of course a minister also represents the government. But he or she doesn't represent Ireland in the way the president does.

katydid

micosoft wrote: »

I put it to you that a Garda superintendent knows understand more than you about the role of the police force in Ireland.

Superintendents have never bent the rules or defied protocol?

micosoft

katydid wrote: »

Since you didn't know that part of an Garda Siochána's role is the security of this state, I'm not sure what would be the point. You seem a little confused.

An elected politician represents his or her constituents, whether they are a backbencher or in cabinet. Of course a minister also represents the government. But he or she doesn't represent Ireland in the way the president does.

No. No confusion on my part. You accept that the Gardai are not simply responsible for the security of the state and carry out other activities. Indeed the majority of the Gardai have nothing to so with security of the state. Traffic management, a band (that plays at sports events!), etc etc and yes, Ministerial and state drivers.

The rest of your comment is beyond bizarre. So I guess the President represents us in Brussels then? The Minister of Foreign Affairs does what exactly? You need to march back down that hill of yours as it just looks foolish now.

micosoft

katydid wrote: »

Superintendents have never bent the rules or defied protocol?

Can you show what rule or protocol the Superindependent broke or are you making up stuff again?

I'd have no problem if you said "I think". The problem is you are making up a Police force, rules and protocols that don't exist.

The use of the Garda car was within the remit of the Gardai, broke no rule or protocol.

I think it was appropriate in the context of a Minister travelling important State Business in Europe. You are welcome to have your own opinion on that but not your own facts.

katydid

micosoft wrote: »

Can you show what rule or protocol the Superindependent broke or are you making up stuff again?

I'd have no problem if you said "I think". The problem is you are making up a Police force, rules and protocols that don't exist.

The use of the Garda car was within the remit of the Gardai, broke no rule or protocol.

I think it was appropriate in the context of a Minister travelling important State Business in Europe. You are welcome have your own opinion.

Can you show a protocol that shows it's acceptable to chauffeur politicans to the airport?

oscarBravo

katydid wrote: »

Can you show a protocol that shows it's acceptable to chauffeur politicans to the airport?

Can you show a protocol that shows it's acceptable to chauffeur pregnant women to hospital? Seeing as we seem to be operating on the basis that AGS can't do anything whatsoever without there being a written rule somewhere that says it's their job.

katydid

oscarBravo wrote: »

Can you show a protocol that shows it's acceptable to chauffeur pregnant women to hospital? Seeing as we seem to be operating on the basis that AGS can't do anything whatsoever without there being a written rule somewhere that says it's their job.

Can you answer the question?

Hotblack Desiato

katydid wrote: »

An elected politician represents his or her constituents, whether they are a backbencher or in cabinet. Of course a minister also represents the government. But he or she doesn't represent Ireland in the way the president does.

Shock, horror, but quite often Ireland is represented in international fora by a civil servant acting on behalf of the relevant minister.

katydid

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Shock, horror, but quite often Ireland is represented in international fora by a civil servant acting on behalf of the relevant minister.

It's not the same kind of representation. Which is why minor politicians don't have security shadowing them round the clock.

Hotblack Desiato

katydid wrote: »

It's not the same kind of representation. Which is why minor politicians don't have security shadowing them round the clock.

Are you going to withdraw the idiotic and demonstrably false 'representing his constituents' post, or not?

katydid

micosoft wrote: »

Great! We are finally getting somewhere! Did you notice the other bullet points? i.e. the OTHER things the Gardai do other then state security. Do you understand that State Security is something a relatively small part of the Garda do? That the vast majority of Gardai have nothing to do with State Security?

Do you now accept that the Garda do other things then State Security which is your assertion?

Did I say otherwise? I was responding to the claim that the Gardaí are not responsible for state security.

katydid

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Are you going to withdraw the idiotic and demonstrably false 'representing his constituents' post, or not?

He's representing his constituency in the Dáil. In his role as minister he's representing the government. He's not representing the country.

The president represents all of us - he/she is the symbolic representative of all the Irish people.

micosoft

katydid wrote: »

Did I say otherwise? I was responding to the claim that the Gardaí are not responsible for state security.

I didn't say that. You are now misrepresenting me as well as misrepresenting the Gardai as well as misrepresenting the state. That's some amount of misrepresentation.

You claimed that the Gardai were only responsible for State Security and that was the only thing they are allowed to do. If the Gardai were only responsible for state security they wouldn't respond to a burglary for example as they do not present a threat to state security. State security is not equal to policing.

I proved that State Security was a minor part of Gardai responsibility. And that within the remit of the Gardai the transport of a junior minister fell reasonably within their duties. You actually posted a link providing these other duties at a high level. You proved yourself wrong.

You have now moved on to the most ridiculous position I have seen (and there are a fair few ones in the Politics Cafe) of claiming that Ministers don't represent the State and the only person who can represent the state is the President.

micosoft

katydid wrote: »

He's representing his constituency in the Dáil. In his role as minister he's representing the government. He's not representing the country.

The president represents all of us - he/she is the symbolic representative of all the Irish people.

You just can't help yourself. I mean, it was mildly bemusing around the Gardai but now you keep digging a bigger hole.

If the Government doesn't represent the country who do they represent?

I've meet Higgins a few times. I'm sure he would be amused of the idea he is a symbolic representative of the Irish People.

katydid

micosoft wrote: »

You just can't help yourself. I mean, it was mildly bemusing around the Gardai but now you keep digging a bigger hole.

If the Government doesn't represent the country who do they represent?

I've meet Higgins a few times. I'm sure he would be amused of the idea he is a symbolic representative of the Irish People.

The government works for the country. It doesn't represent the country.

Somehow I think Mr. Higgins is well aware of the role of the head of state of the Republic, and indeed of the head of state of any country. If he was unsure, which I doubt, he'd only have to look at his own website, where it clearly states that one of his roles is to represent the people of Ireland...

http://www.president.ie/en/the-president/international-role

katydid

micosoft wrote: »

I didn't say that. You are now misrepresenting me as well as misrepresenting the Gardai as well as misrepresenting the state. That's some amount of misrepresentation.

You claimed that the Gardai were only responsible for State Security and that was the only thing they are allowed to do. If the Gardai were only responsible for state security they wouldn't respond to a burglary for example as they do not present a threat to state security. State security is not equal to policing.

I proved that State Security was a minor part of Gardai responsibility. And that within the remit of the Gardai the transport of a junior minister fell reasonably within their duties. You actually posted a link providing these other duties at a high level. You proved yourself wrong.

You have now moved on to the most ridiculous position I have seen (and there are a fair few ones in the Politics Cafe) of claiming that Ministers don't represent the State and the only person who can represent the state is the President.

I never claimed the Gardaí were ONLY responsible for state security. I said they were responsible for state security. One little word makes a big difference. Major, minor, it doesn't matter. They are.

You can stop digging now.

micosoft

katydid wrote: »

The government works for the country. It doesn't represent the country.

Somehow I think Mr. Higgins is well aware of the role of the head of state of the Republic, and indeed of the head of state of any country. If he was unsure, which I doubt, he'd only have to look at his own website, where it clearly states that one of his roles is to represent the people of Ireland...

http://www.president.ie/en/the-president/international-role

He is aware, you are not. Unlike you he's read the constitution. And I am still certain he does not view himself as some "embodiment" of the Irish people (little words make a difference see!).

The Government represents the country in all diplomatic negotiations and treaties. The president does not.

Article 29 of our Constitution

4 1° The executive power of the State in or in connection with its external relations shall in accordance with Article 28 of this Constitution be exercised by or on the authority of the Government.

2° For the purpose of the exercise of any executive function of the State in or in connection with its external relations, the Government may to such extent and subject to such conditions, if any, as may be determined by law, avail of or adopt any organ, instrument, or method of procedure used or adopted for the like purpose by the members of any group or league of nations with which the State is or becomes associated for the purpose of international co-operation in matters of common concern.

micosoft

katydid wrote: »

I never claimed the Gardaí were ONLY responsible for state security. I said they were responsible for state security. One little word makes a big difference. Major, minor, it doesn't matter. They are.

You can stop digging now.

Ah. Progress. You did make that claim. You claimed they were the security services of the state ergo they should not be driving around a politician. That would be correct if that was their only role or even primary role but it is not.

You now accept the Gardai do more then State Security (actually a tiny part of what they do - there is a difference between state security and policing). One of their roles is providing transport to Government as required. The President, Taoiseach and a number of ministers have this service right now. That's a fact. So to claim that either this service was outside of Gardai regulations or protocols or duties is demonstrably false.

In my view any reasonably minded person accepts that escorting a junior minister on state business to the airport as a once of emergency is reasonable use of state services and the judgement of the super was correct.

You don't and that's fine but stop claiming your understand what the Gardai do and at this point the Government because you demonstrably don't and are making up these "rules" to support your partisan position.

You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

oscarBravo

katydid wrote: »

Can you answer the question?

No, I can't show such a protocol - but then, I'm not the one claiming that such a protocol is required before a Garda is allowed to do something.

Your turn.

katydid

micosoft wrote: »

He is aware, you are not. Unlike you he's read the constitution. And I am still certain he does not view himself as some "embodiment" of the Irish people (little words make a difference see!).

The Government represents the country in all diplomatic negotiations and treaties. The president does not.

Article 29 of our Constitution

Why do you keep claiming I said things I didn't, so I have to keep pointing out that you are wrong? It's getting rather tiresome. As is quoting irrelevant extracts from Bunreacht na hEireann

katydid

oscarBravo wrote: »

No, I can't show such a protocol - but then, I'm not the one claiming that such a protocol is required before a Garda is allowed to do something.

Your turn.

Neither am I, so...

katydid

micosoft wrote: »

Ah. Progress. You did make that claim. You claimed they were the security services of the state ergo they should not be driving around a politician. That would be correct if that was their only role or even primary role but it is not.

.

Why would it be correct only if it were their only role? Why is it not correct when security is part of their role? Chauffeuring is not part of their role. That's what Gardaí do when they retire at fifty.

oscarBravo

katydid wrote: »

Chauffeuring is not part of their role.

Including chauffeuring pregnant women to hospital?

micosoft

katydid wrote: »

Why do you keep claiming I said things I didn't, so I have to keep pointing out that you are wrong? It's getting rather tiresome. As is quoting irrelevant extracts from Bunreacht na hEireann

You said less then a couple of posts ago:

katydid wrote: »

The government works for the country. It doesn't represent the country.
[/URL]

I quoted the exact section of the constitution which explicitly states the Government represents the country:

4 1° The executive power of the State in or in connection with its external relations shall in accordance with Article 28 of this Constitution be exercised by or on the authority of the Government.

I'm sure it's tiresome not only being continuously wrong but forgetting what you said mere posts ago.

micosoft

katydid wrote: »

Why would it be correct only if it were their only role? Why is it not correct when security is part of their role? Chauffeuring is not part of their role. That's what Gardaí do when they retire at fifty.

Because if State Security was their role they would be the equivalent of British M15, German BND or French DSG for example. You continuous inability to understand what the meaning of State Security is an issue here. State Security is not policing.

You now accept that State Security is part of their role - which it is - a very small (though important) function of the Gardai. But you still deny the fact that (in your childish and offensive words) that other roles such as chauffeuring are not part of their role. Driving and escorting Politicians and Civil Servants are part of their role when needed.

So to repeat. It is part of their role. They do it everyday. To suggest otherwise is untrue.