Alien: Covenant *Spoilers from post 747*

Dontfadeaway

Hyzepher wrote: »

Why was there a crashed Engineer ship on the planet?

Isn't it the the ship David and Shaw left on in Prometheus.

It was very disappointing. It was more about David than the Aliens. The CGI was bad.

bullvine

Hyzepher wrote: »

Why was there a crashed Engineer ship on the planet?

It was the ship that David had taken from Prometheus.

Tony EH

A buddy of mine brought this over last night. Terrible film. While it's better than 'Prometheus', it's still a woeful effort.

Both 'Prometheus' and this feel like they're not part of the same story as 'Alien', but just have aliens tacked onto it. There's a reasonable sci-fi story buried in there somewhere. But, it's all rendered silly by trying to tie it in to the 'Alien' series. In the end it ends up being good in neither camp.

And now, it's David that created the xenomorph from the original film?

Nah. That's just awful. It robs 'Alien' completely of its wonder and therefore much of the point of that film.

Terrible stuff.

Hyzepher

Mickeroo wrote: »

It's the one David flew in on.

Yeah but that was fully operational during the genocide - why crash it?

Tony EH

Cos he couldn't figure out how to land it?

Tinie

Rewwatched this after the cinema a few months back. Holy god how bad was the CGI for the xenos. Easily the worst aspect of the film.

Hyzepher

Tony EH wrote: »

Cos he couldn't figure out how to land it?

Unlikely.

Tony EH

Why?

El Duda

Tinie wrote: »

Rewwatched this after the cinema a few months back. Holy god how bad was the CGI for the xenos. Easily the worst aspect of the film.

At times it looked no better than Alien 3. Shocking. Almost looked like stop motion at times.

Hyzepher

Tony EH wrote: »

Why?

Well himself and Dr. Shaw were able to locate the ship, gain entry to it, take off in it, leave the planet in Prometheus, navigate to an Engineer world, probably use alien cryostasis, dock with a station and initiate the protocol for weapon dispersion. All without too much bother. Landing it would seem less of an issue.

Kidchameleon

Hyzepher wrote: »

Why was there a crashed Engineer ship on the planet?

In the film you can see that the mother juggernaught has also crashed. The novel explains that some kind of failsafe device was activated when david droped the payload, rendering all ships useless (there were several more ships in the city you can see these in deleted scenes on you tube)

Also this film was terrible.

Keplar240B

Alien: Covenant Advent , extra scene
A transmission from David to Weyland
Is this clip from the blueray or something ?

David did not design or create the xenomorph merely discovered or built them.

helimachoptor

Watched this over the weekend, thought it was entertaining but the twist at the end was so obvious

TheDoc

Watched it again myself, second viewing. Still enjoyed it and still find it a good film, but the CGI on the Alien I'd issues with at the time in the cinema, came jumping back again. Just takes me straight out of the intensity it's so ropey. Alien Isolation had a better looking Alien then this.

The twist, yeah, just not even remotely impactful second time around, and it wasn't much first time.

Personally I'm starting to think the explanation for how the Alien came into being, maybe wasn't such a good idea. I never found myself when I watched Alien or Aliens, ever thinking or wondering "wow it would be cool to learn where they come from or what they are" as opposed to say Predator, where I would be interested in something about that species.

On reflection what might have been a more interesting prequel is the first meeting of the Xenomorphs with humans. If Alien clearly sets up a notion that the Company know they exist, and the whole setup is to try capture one alive, then it might have been better to see where the first point of contact came from.

While this "somewhat" is about that, it's losing the run of itself having David be the creator, and Scott again playing that god/religion/creation card.

It can be as simple as some missing goes tits up, bumps into Alien species, **** goes south, and Weyland/company get a hard on for the species.

Tony EH

TheDoc wrote: »

Personally I'm starting to think the explanation for how the Alien came into being, maybe wasn't such a good idea. I never found myself when I watched Alien or Aliens, ever thinking or wondering "wow it would be cool to learn where they come from or what they are" as opposed to say Predator, where I would be interested in something about that species.

On reflection what might have been a more interesting prequel is the first meeting of the Xenomorphs with humans. If Alien clearly sets up a notion that the Company know they exist, and the whole setup is to try capture one alive, then it might have been better to see where the first point of contact came from.

While this "somewhat" is about that, it's losing the run of itself having David be the creator, and Scott again playing that god/religion/creation card.

In 'Alien', Wayland Yutani only know that a lifeform exists. Nothing more. They don't know anything about its nature, but are willing to sacrifice the crew if it turns out to be agressive.

Bacchus

I haven't rewatched but took a look at the Alien scenes after seeing all these comments about bad CGI. TBH, I hadn't noticed anything with the CGi in the cinema but looking at it now it does look quite bad and I imagine it will not date well. It's alright indoors in the darker settings but the whole attack on the crane-ship looked very weak.

AllForIt

A warning that this post contains flashing images.

One difference between Covenant and Alien is that in Alien you hope the crew might survive but in covenant you hope they all die as horribly as possible.

I found it irritating the way David said 'the creator' as 'the cre-a-TOR'.

When the first victim was convulsing in the ship he looked more like a zombie than a zenomorph victim. 28 days later style.

When Walter began to cut his hair it was too obvious we were going to have to play a game of who's who. I don't know why he hadn't cut his hair before- maybe he had been listening to some hippy music and had been smoking weed.

I can't think of anything else to say about the movie because it was so unmemorable. Very disappointing given the hype. Entertaining enough in parts but not in enough parts.

Syphonax

AllForIt wrote: »

A warning that this post contains flashing images.

One difference between Covenant and Alien is that in Alien you hope the crew might survive but in covenant you hope they all die as horribly as possible.

Apart from Charlize Theron character I cant say that I agree with you here.

Syphonax

TheDoc wrote: »

Personally I'm starting to think the explanation for how the Alien came into being, maybe wasn't such a good idea. I never found myself when I watched Alien or Aliens, ever thinking or wondering "wow it would be cool to learn where they come from or what they are" as opposed to say Predator, where I would be interested in something about that species.

The Space Jockey from the first Alien movie is the only reason these prequels had a leg to stand on and they completely messed that up, firstly, the Space Jockey was actually suppose to be another non-human entity, then it turns out in Promethus that he was actually more Human the we are and the only reason we came in existence! Then, secondly, in Covenant, turns out the android David kill the Space Jockey race and is the actual reasons for how the xenomorph came into existence. Totally storyline fookup.

mikhail

Syphonax wrote: »

Apart from Charlize Theron character I cant say that I agree with you here.

Theron isn't in Covenant. You're thinking of Prometheus.

buried

One of the most ridiculous points of this thing, and had me scratching my head from the very start, was the fact that at the start of this thing, the Covenant ship is given direct orders to go to some other planet, right? But then the captain then decides to take it upon himself to bring the crew and the ship to some other totally different planet, all because he hears a John Denver tune coming from it? lol Wut??

Compare that to the first film, where the captain of the Nostromo is given direct orders to go to the planet with the mysterious distress signal coming from it. Orders are orders in the first film, but in Ridley's new swede remake, orders aren't orders at all, forget the orders, lets go see the planet the John Denver fan is on!

Now some of you may think this is only a minor thing, but it isn't. This move was a direct smack into the face of the deadpan gritty realism of the first classic film. It literally dragged me out of the escapism I was trying to watch by making me go right from the start - "wait a minute, in the first one....."

Have the Hollywood writers and creator's become so f**king $hite they cant even keep the smallest bit of consistency to the world they are trying to create and sell back to the fans as a continuation or even prequel to the original story?

This is no good for the fans. It's a serious f**king problem. And fans of Blade Runner should take note of it too. Next up for the Ridley Scott Swede P!sspull

Ipso

Syphonax wrote: »

The Space Jockey from the first Alien movie is the only reason these prequels had a leg to stand on and they completely messed that up, firstly, the Space Jockey was actually suppose to be another non-human entity, then it turns out in Promethus that he was actually more Human the we are and the only reason we came in existence! Then, secondly, in Covenant, turns out the android David kill the Space Jockey race and is the actual reasons for how the xenomorph came into existence. Totally storyline fookup.

Isn't there a massive difference in size between the original Space Jockey and engineers?

buried

buried wrote: »

One of the most ridiculous points of this thing, and had me scratching my head from the very start, was the fact that at the start of this thing, the Covenant ship is given direct orders to go to some other planet, right? But then the captain then decides to take it upon himself to bring the crew and the ship to some other totally different planet, all because he hears a John Denver tune coming from it? lol Wut??

Compare that to the first film, where the captain of the Nostromo is given direct orders to go to the planet with the mysterious distress signal coming from it. Orders are orders in the first film, but in Ridley's new swede remake, orders aren't orders at all, forget the orders, lets go see the planet the John Denver fan is on!

Now some of you may think this is only a minor thing, but it isn't. This move was a direct smack into the face of the deadpan gritty realism of the first classic film. It literally dragged me out of the escapism I was trying to watch by making me go right from the start - "wait a minute, in the first one....."

Have the Hollywood writers and creator's become so f**king $hite they cant even keep the smallest bit of consistency to the world they are trying to create and sell back to the fans as a continuation or even prequel to the original story?

This is no good for the fans. It's a serious f**king problem. And fans of Blade Runner should take note of it too. Next up for the Ridley Scott Swede P!sspull

There's lots I don't like about this movie. But the reason why the changed their destination is not one of them. Their ship had just suffered a potentially catastrophic event, with the higher possibility of more if they continued with their original plan. Their captain was killed. They received a transmission from a much closer planet which was of Shaw singing a John Denver song. They weighed up the pros and cons and made a decision.

what doesn't make sense about this?

buried

Deleted User wrote: »

There's lots I don't like about this movie. But the reason why the changed their destination is not one of them. Their ship had just suffered a potentially catastrophic event, with the higher possibility of more if they continued with their original plan. Their captain was killed. They received a transmission from a much closer planet which was of Shaw singing a John Denver song. They weighed up the pros and cons and made a decision.

what doesn't make sense about this?

They had no direct order from the company to go to this John Denver planet, that's what doesn't make sense. The company makes the decisions, and not on the whim of the new dopey captain who's just been in the job two minutes. What would they have done if there was no John Denver song planet? Probably radio back to the company/mother to ask what to do next? Why didn't they do that? They sure had the fancy equipment to do it, why didn't they do that anyways?
No. Lets go to John Denver planet because new captain wants to and believes in 'God' and everything is gonna be all right. Bosco stuff man

buried

buried wrote: »

They had no direct order from the company to go to this John Denver planet, that's what doesn't make sense. The company makes the decisions, and not on the whim of the new dopey captain who's just been in the job two minutes. What would they have done if there was no John Denver song planet? Probably radio back to the company/mother to ask what to do next? Why didn't they do that? They sure had the fancy equipment to do it, why didn't they do that anyways?
No. Lets go to John Denver planet because new captain wants to and believes in 'God' and everything is gonna be all right. Bosco stuff man

Signs of human life on nearby planet, nothing to see here move along

buried

Deleted User wrote: »

Signs of human life on nearby planet, nothing to see here move along

Should have taken that advice before seeing this $hite myself!

.ak

What's funny about the Alien movies is despite there not being one decent movie after 1 and 2 (I'm liking 3 more and more in my later years tho, if they touched up the CGI/effects it'd be a good movie!) I'm still eager to see more.

I don't think the Promethues saga works. I feel they'll do another one, but it'll be more of the same... I'll still go see it.

But I'd be really eager to see them do another totally different movie. It's a really good IP, they just need to stop trying to make it shiny and new.

What makes Alien for me is the industrial, unforgiving world it's set in. The Nostromo felt like an oil tanker in space with no frills and no escape, that in itself set the tone. No help, no safety, isolated....

The 2nd movie was in it's own right a different element, more action than sci-fi horror, the alien now in multiples and not immortal as before, but what it does have in common with the 1st one is the desolate nature of scene and setting. LV is a hostile world where you won't survive without taking the right precautions, and then the base itself is just about fit for purpose; industrial and harsh. It felt like the world was the real enemy in that movie.

Now we go to Prometheus, which is set before either of these movies, and gone are the purely functional buttons and dials and CRT monitors and in comes fancy light speed ships with holograms and HUD displays... Sorry but it just doesn't feel right, you never feel insecure and you never felt under threat, you just feel like the characters deserve their untimely ends because they were stupid enough to get themselves into this in the first place.

For all the different elements of media releases under the IP I have to say the best thing outside of Alien and Aliens is Alien: Isolation. It's a good game, but a brilliant chapter in the franchise. My missus doesn't really play games, but she was enthralled in it when I played it and asked for me to wait to play it together, for her it was like watching the next episode of GOT or whatever, she was hooked on what would happen next, but there's nothing really new about the format or the story line, but the world, scene and setting is enough to grab you in straight away, plus the respect in which they treat the Xenomorph is perfection, you are it's prey and most certainly not it's equal like the movies sometimes lose track of.

Can't help but feel that with all of that in mind, this movie just missed a trick...

Tony EH

.ak wrote: »

What's funny about the Alien movies is despite there not being one decent movie after 1 and 2 (I'm liking 3 more and more in my later years tho, if they touched up the CGI/effects it'd be a good movie!) I'm still eager to see more.

I don't think the Promethues saga works. I feel they'll do another one, but it'll be more of the same... I'll still go see it.

But I'd be really eager to see them do another totally different movie. It's a really good IP, they just need to stop trying to make it shiny and new.

What makes Alien for me is the industrial, unforgiving world it's set in. The Nostromo felt like an oil tanker in space with no frills and no escape, that in itself set the tone. No help, no safety, isolated....

The 2nd movie was in it's own right a different element, more action than sci-fi horror, the alien now in multiples and not immortal as before, but what it does have in common with the 1st one is the desolate nature of scene and setting. LV is a hostile world where you won't survive without taking the right precautions, and then the base itself is just about fit for purpose; industrial and harsh. It felt like the world was the real enemy in that movie.

Now we go to Prometheus, which is set before either of these movies, and gone are the purely functional buttons and dials and CRT monitors and in comes fancy light speed ships with holograms and HUD displays... Sorry but it just doesn't feel right, you never feel insecure and you never felt under threat, you just feel like the characters deserve their untimely ends because they were stupid enough to get themselves into this in the first place.

For all the different elements of media releases under the IP I have to say the best thing outside of Alien and Aliens is Alien: Isolation. It's a good game, but a brilliant chapter in the franchise. My missus doesn't really play games, but she was enthralled in it when I played it and asked for me to wait to play it together, for her it was like watching the next episode of GOT or whatever, she was hooked on what would happen next, but there's nothing really new about the format or the story line, but the world, scene and setting is enough to grab you in straight away, plus the respect in which they treat the Xenomorph is perfection, you are it's prey and most certainly not it's equal like the movies sometimes lose track of.

Can't help but feel that with all of that in mind, this movie just missed a trick...

Agree with pretty much all of that, especially the bolded parts. And I know all the excuses that have been made for the Prometheus's ridiculous levels of wow in its equipment and it just doesn't wash. The Sulaco is a state of the art military vessel, made years afterward and possesses none of its silly tech. That's always bugged me. It's notable that Scott toned down that angle in Covenant.

The worst offences of this new trilogy though are the stupid characters and the destruction it carries it on the original and better films.

I didn't bother going to see 'Alien: Covenant', after being burned by its predecessor. But, a mate brought it over to watch recently. It's probably slightly better than 'Prometheus'. But it's still quite a poor film.

When watching these films, though, I can see there are good science fiction ideas floating around in there and it would have made for a better series of films in their own right. But when they're sellotaped to the Alien franchise, it ends up wrecking each other.

As the Mighty Boosh once sang, "Elements of the past and elements of the future, combining to make something not quite as good as either."

lazybones32

Just watched Honest Trailer's take on Covenant and the amount of flute playing and the "I'll do the fingering" line shouldn't have made the cut.
Scott reckons he can squeeze 6 more films out of the premise (i don't doubt that) but don't start asking questions that you won't/can't answer.
Most characters in his films are there to die but don't kill them off by stupidity; by looking face-first into a moving egg or getting friendly with an aggressive-acting space worm that's hissing at you.
Scott had great ideas but like george lucas and willie nelson, great ideas are often executed better by someone else.

lazybones32

lazybones32 wrote: »

Most characters in his films are there to die but don't kill them off by stupidity; by looking face-first into a moving egg.

I dont get this, nobody had a problem with this in Alien. The exact same thing happened

Egg opens, John hurt looks inside ( praised as an amazing scene)

Repeat the exact same scene in Covenant, and it's a sign that Ridley has lost it

Tony EH

It's the context I suppose. Hurt's character is only an exec on a tugboat. He hasn't seen much and has a pretty much a nobody on a boring job. He's merely curious and fulfills the old adage about curiosity and cats.

They guy in Covenant is on a planet of death, with a crazy robot, who acts weird, people getting infected and dying horribly. He's also just wasted one of them, so he knows just how aggressive David's aliens are. Nothing he's seen up til then warrants staring into an egg that the creepy robot is growing.

Admittedly, it's nowhere as bad as that guy in 'Prometheus' doing his Steve Irwin impression. But, I think a lot of people roll their eyes largely because it was a cheap callback.

Dontfadeaway

lazybones32 wrote: »

Just watched Honest Trailer's take on Covenant and the amount of flute playing and the "I'll do the fingering" line shouldn't have made the cut.
Scott reckons he can squeeze 6 more films out of the premise (i don't doubt that) but don't start asking questions that you won't/can't answer.
Most characters in his films are there to die but don't kill them off by stupidity; by looking face-first into a moving egg or getting friendly with an aggressive-acting space worm that's hissing at you.
Scott had great ideas but like george lucas and willie nelson, great ideas are often executed better by someone else.

I'd be surprised if there is another one. It didn't do as good as Prometheus did.

TerrorFirmer

Deleted User wrote: »

I dont get this, nobody had a problem with this in Alien. The exact same thing happened

Egg opens, John hurt looks inside ( praised as an amazing scene)

Repeat the exact same scene in Covenant, and it's a sign that Ridley has lost it

But they aren't the same, not even close - the context is completely different (as Tony as pointed out above).

A degree of flexibility and suspension of rationale is needed in many films - even very good ones - but while the scene works in Alien, it absolutely does not work in Covenant on any level.

TerrorFirmer

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

But they aren't the same, not even close - the context is completely different (as Tony as pointed out above).

A degree of flexibility and suspension of rationale is needed in many films - even very good ones - but while the scene works in Alien, it absolutely does not work in Covenant on any level.

In Alien they are in an unknown crashed alien spacecraft, with a huge dead alien at the controls, surrounded by hundreds of eggs

Then one of the eggs opens and John hurst looks directly down into it, it's not like he was in Disneyland

Both of these moments require a bit of suspension of belief. The context is that these new Alien movies have been given a green light to nit pick

Drumpot

Deleted User wrote: »

In Alien they are in an unknown crashed alien spacecraft, with a huge dead alien at the controls, surrounded by hundreds of eggs

Then one of the eggs opens and John hurst looks directly down into it, it's not like he was in Disneyland

Both of these moments require a bit of suspension of belief. The context is that these new Alien movies have been given a green light to nit pick

And then they let him on board the ship with the facehugger on his head and had lunch with him as if noting happened when it falls off. What about the convenience of the alien going to sleep in the one area of a massive ship that happens to be the escape pod! Woopty f*ckin doo.

There are plenty of moments in the originals that could similarly be critically judged but they aren't. The originals are better movies but people want to find reasons to justify their dissapointment and keep whinging about characters. I don't find characters silly or unwise behaviour that unbelievable. They are pioneers risking their lives, exploring space , not people working safely behind a desk. why people think bad/stupid decisions aren't made by humans in stressful situations is ridiculously naive.

Some people who enjoyed the originals will excuse similar or exact same kind of things with originals and pan the newer ones. It's clear many people just didn't want a back story and are finding anything they can to justify their dislike of Covenant and Prometheus.

If you want to like the movie you will just ignore the minor gripes on characters actions and if you don't want to like the movie they will irritate you. I've never seen such hypocritical analysis of a series then people picking out character flaws that existed very much in the originals.

I love the originals but enjoyed the newer ones aswell, maybe a bit less but enough to want to see more.

lazybones32

Ah lads, in Alien they were wearing breathing apparatus and Ripley refused to leave Hurt back on the ship. Covenant just paints large targets on people.

Drumpot

lazybones32 wrote: »

Ah lads, in Alien they were wearing breathing apparatus and Ripley refused to leave Hurt back on the ship. Covenant just paints large targets on people.

Ah will you feck off.

- Aliens cut the power (mocked by Hudson - how can they cut the power man they are animals!). I would love to see a GIF of an alien flicking off the power switch!
- Queen with tiny hands manages to grab onto a violently moving ship, drag herself into the cargo hold and not be detected until she reveals herself
-Kane looks at egg. Mask or no mask it's stupid, he hadn't a clue what was in the egg
- crew of nostromo letting Kane have lunch after the facehugger fell off (they would of easily just quarantined him at lab)
- convenience of alien sleeping in escape pod
- how the f*ck did Burke manage to tip over two facehugger s in a beacon and not get caught ?(they are quick)
- why did facehuggers in same incident not go straight to rumple and nute? Easy targets , convenient ripley wakes up just in time when she is prob exhausted.
- gestation periods and growth of alien not clear in original but people complain about time period in Covenant
- when the ship is blown up in Aliens the only backup way of getting another ship down from the mother ship is an elaborate strategy that involves bishop crawling through a scarily narrow pipe.
- why was their ship on the ground left open for an alien to walk on board ? This is a military ship, not a bunch of colonists!
- a child survived weeks on her own in the company of up to 100 Aliens!

These are just some of the things I can come up with off the top of my head and if any of these things happened in Covenant people would be complaining. I love the originals and don't get annoyed by any of these things. It's clear people didn't like the newer alien movies but it's also clear it's not for the reasons many are saying.

TerrorFirmer

That argument hardly holds water at all - we're all picking on the movies because we simply want to find fault for some reason? That's like saying people who disliked the Star Wars prequels are only nit-picking because they for some reason want to find flaws rather than there actually being obvious flaws.

I've always defended Prometheus as it's, to me, a very solid film and the odd behaviors largely sit well with me in the context of it ultimately being a film. I enjoyed it immensely as was very much looking forward to Covenant.

However, I hated it because it's a lazy, slapped together film that seems more concerned with being all things to all people and delivering fan service than actually being a competent, well told film.

John Hurts actions are certainly irrational, but they work in the context of it being a film - all films need conveniences. They're on an Alien ship, but everything is dead, and has been for a long time - but these strange eggs show signs of life which sparks curiosity. Even after Hurt is incapacitated, Ripley herself refuses to let him back onboard for contamination reasons - but is over-ruled by the crew.

Fast forward to Covenant - and Billy Crudup has already witnessed a flesh tearing alien mauling his crew, is directly told that David has deliberately engineered this murderous Xenomorph, witnesses David's horror and rage when he personally kills the Neomorph - and is then subsequently invited to peer directly into an egg, while holding David at gunpoint.

And people genuinely are trying to say that both scenes are equally flawed, but people just want to find fault with the latter?

lazybones32

Drumpot wrote: »

Ah will you feck off.

- Aliens cut the power (mocked by Hudson - how can they cut the power man they are animals!). I would love to see a GIF of an alien flicking off the power switch!
- Queen with tiny hands manages to grab onto a violently moving ship, drag herself into the cargo hold and not be detected until she reveals herself
-Kane looks at egg. Mask or no mask it's stupid, he hadn't a clue what was in the egg
- crew of nostromo letting Kane have lunch after the facehugger fell off (they would of easily just quarantined him at lab)
- convenience of alien sleeping in escape pod
- how the f*ck did Burke manage to tip over two facehugger s in a beacon and not get caught ?(they are quick)
- why did facehuggers in same incident not go straight to rumple and nute? Easy targets , convenient ripley wakes up just in time when she is prob exhausted.
- gestation periods and growth of alien not clear in original but people complain about time period in Covenant
- when the ship is blown up in Aliens the only backup way of getting another ship down from the mother ship is an elaborate strategy that involves bishop crawling through a scarily narrow pipe.
- why was their ship on the ground left open for an alien to walk on board ? This is a military ship, not a bunch of colonists!
- a child survived weeks on her own in the company of up to 100 Aliens!

These are just some of the things I can come up with off the top of my head and if any of these things happened in Covenant people would be complaining. I love the originals and don't get annoyed by any of these things. It's clear people didn't like the newer alien movies but it's also clear it's not for the reasons many are saying.

That was a lovely post about Aliens...i was talking about Alien. 2 different directors.
In Alien, people get picked off in tense, suspenseful fashion but with the prequels they get taken out in groups just to satisfy a bodycount quota. 'Every sequel must be bigger, badder and boomier!'

My gripe is that with more time to develop ideas and flesh out a story, Scott should have delivered so much more than what was served in Cov. I wasn't expecting another Alien but i was looking for the Q's of Prom to be answered to some degree, rather than skip chapters and kill the lead character off-screen.
Yeah, it's his baby and he can tell the story as he wants to but when paying customers aren't satisfied with the purchase, it isn't solely the fault of the fans for expecting better.


Scott has directed some good films but has a share of turkeys too.

Drumpot

lazybones32 wrote: »

That was a lovely post about Aliens...i was talking about Alien. 2 different directors.
In Alien, people get picked off in tense, suspenseful fashion but with the prequels they get taken out in groups just to satisfy a bodycount quota. 'Every sequel must be bigger, badder and boomier!'

My gripe is that with more time to develop ideas and flesh out a story, Scott should have delivered so much more than what was served in Cov. I wasn't expecting another Alien but i was looking for the Q's of Prom to be answered to some degree, rather than skip chapters and kill the lead character off-screen.
Yeah, it's his baby and he can tell the story as he wants to but when paying customers aren't satisfied with the purchase, it isn't solely the fault of the fans for expecting better.


Scott has directed some good films but has a share of turkeys too.

I'm responding to people mentioning stupid character behaviours and plot devices to further the story a certain way. I'm showing how it's no different to the originals and clearly saying there is double standards on this aspect. You are not addressing by point.

The irony is that Scott moved away from the Prometheus model because of the outcry against it...

There is simply no way he can appease all fans (of which I am one). It's a marmite situation ,

Drumpot

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

That argument hardly holds water at all - we're all picking on the movies because we simply want to find fault for some reason? That's like saying people who disliked the Star Wars prequels are only nit-picking because they for some reason want to find flaws rather than there actually being obvious flaws.

I've always defended Prometheus as it's, to me, a very solid film and the odd behaviors largely sit well with me in the context of it ultimately being a film. I enjoyed it immensely as was very much looking forward to Covenant.

However, I hated it because it's a lazy, slapped together film that seems more concerned with being all things to all people and delivering fan service than actually being a competent, well told film.

John Hurts actions are certainly irrational, but they work in the context of it being a film - all films need conveniences. They're on an Alien ship, but everything is dead, and has been for a long time - but these strange eggs show signs of life which sparks curiosity. Even after Hurt is incapacitated, Ripley herself refuses to let him back onboard for contamination reasons - but is over-ruled by the crew.

Fast forward to Covenant - and Billy Crudup has already witnessed a flesh tearing alien mauling his crew, is directly told that David has deliberately engineered this murderous Xenomorph, witnesses David's horror and rage when he personally kills the Neomorph - and is then subsequently invited to peer directly into an egg, while holding David at gunpoint.

And people genuinely are trying to say that both scenes are equally flawed, but people just want to find fault with the latter?

I am not saying either scene is flawed. I am saying in both instances characters made stupid choices but people are willing to believe that the original was less stupid purely because it was a better movie...

If anything the reactions of the bumbling character of the captain in Covenant was more believable then Kanes curiosity. Especially as the nostromo crew didn't want to go down to the planet. Whatever way you explain away Kane's stupidity I can counter argue it with a legitimate reason highlighting the ridiculous hypocrisy in a hypothetical world.

You wouldn't even address the ridiculous instances in the originals that could easily be construed as lazy plot devices and stupid characters. Your not judging this film objectively. It was not as good a movie as the originals but not for the reasons you say.

lazybones32

Drumpot wrote: »

I'm responding to people mentioning stupid character behaviours and plot devices to further the story a certain way. I'm showing how it's no different to the originals and clearly saying there is double standards on this aspect. You are not addressing by point.

The irony is that Scott moved away from the Prometheus model because of the outcry against it...

There is simply no way he can appease all fans (of which I am one). It's a marmite situation ,

But the plot holes and stupid behaviours that were in Alien/s, did you notice them in the cinema on first viewing, or only after repeated viewing and reflection? The same can't be said for Cov. I was groaning at certain points, much to the delight of those around me, i'm sure, but these are basic errors. Not everyone is a critic who is out to pan a film and i wasn't holding Alien as the litmus test but Cov was just not a good film. Especially given the material and ideas he had to work with.

I am on the phone so i can't reply point by point

Drumpot

lazybones32 wrote: »

But the plot holes and stupid behaviours that were in Alien/s, did you notice them in the cinema on first viewing, or only after repeated viewing and reflection? The same can't be said for Cov. I was groaning at certain points, much to the delight of those around me, i'm sure, but these are basic errors. Not everyone is a critic who is out to pan a film and i wasn't holding Alien as the litmus test but Cov was just not a good film. Especially given the material and ideas he had to work with.

I am on the phone so i can't reply point by point

Saying "this character putting his head on front of an egg was stupid in this movie but less so in another movie cause your man wore a helmet" is a very thin defence of a stupid action. Particularly as the character in alien came across far more competent and intelligent then the religious dope in Covenant.

I watched both Aliens and Alien (cinema) over the summer. You can pick out very similar character deficiencies and questionable plot strategies in both that could take away your enjoyment. But the movies were better and had more enjoyable characters so people are more forgiving.

Went to see Covenant 3 times enjoying it more each time. As my prejudice (these are different to originals) and expectation changed I enjoyed them more and felt the issues being highlighted (character actions and plot) are not the problem. It isn't as good as the originals that were IMO near perfection for completely different reasons. But it's a good standalone movie if you can watch it without benchmarking it against originals.

The problem is that there were much better characters in the originals. You actually wanted to see them survive and we had a hero in ripely , we have nobody to support in the newer movies (Shaw nowhere near as strong as Ripley - imagine raiders of the lost ark without Indiana jones!)...characters doing stupid things and wafer think plot devices (nute surviving to give ripley a drive that is integral to aliens) are rife in the originals but they are better movies and people are happy to be less critical.

Syphonax

mikhail wrote: »

Theron isn't in Covenant. You're thinking of Prometheus.

Yeah sorry.but there was even less characters to like in Prometheus

Syphonax

Ipso wrote: »

Isn't there a massive difference in size between the original Space Jockey and engineers?

Hard to say, in Alien the Space Jockey was easily 2-3 times the size of humans, the engineers in Prometheus maybe a few feet taller than humans. We are led to believe the Space Jockey wore some sort of protective armor so it looks completely alien in Alien but in Prometheus the Space Jockey/engineers are like advanced humanoids, they really messed this up, they should have continued to use the Space Jockey/Engineers as a completely alien race but went with linking the them to humanity, which was very poor story writing IMO.

lazybones32

@Drumpot: the only bit i agree on with you is that the originals were better movies.
Contrast the 2 impregnation scenes (which has already been done on the thread) and they are nowhere near the same bar the facehugger action/shot.
I didn't watch any trailers or reviews so as not to bias, spoil or influence it, so don't try playing the psychology card that it is confirmation bias, sentimentality or nostalgia that makes other people think that Cov. was a fraction of what it could have been and that it is considered stupid in parts.

Tony EH

Drumpot wrote: »

And then they let him on board the ship with the facehugger on his head

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Even after Hurt is incapacitated, Ripley herself refuses to let him back onboard for contamination reasons - but is over-ruled by the crew.

Ash was the one who opened the airlock after Rupley refused to do so, citing quarrantine proceedure. Ash (the robot) is under company orders to recind all other orders in order to "bring back lifeform".

Crew decision wasn't involved.

The "first contact" event in 'Alien' make sense. Even Kane's curiosity getting the better of him. In 1979, 99% of the audience would have looked into the egg briefly as well.

The same thing in 'Prometheus' and 'Covenant' is just stupid, given the context involved, even without knowledge that 'Alien' provides.

Later, in 'Alien' the crew do some, arguably, questionble things. Splitting up to go look for something that burst out of a man's chest. But, then, they lack choice here. They HAVE to find it as they have to go back to hypersleep for the journey home and leaving that running around isn't an option. Dallas going into the vents to flush the full grown alien out isn't the smartest. But again, there's a real lack of choice here and desparate times - desparate measures etc. In any case, he realises this and wants to back out. So, it's not done out of sheer stupidity.

BMMachine

This film was a tire fire and any other opinion other than that is simply incorrect. I could list all the things that made it terrible but if you search your heart of hearts you will find those reasons too.

Keyzer

Watched it last night, where do I start.

Visual effects were excellent, acting not bad. The neomorph's and xenomorph's were pretty cool.

The story line however, jesus H, who in the name of god came up with this tripe and, more worryingly, who gave the green light to proceed?

So many stupid, ridiculous things happen in this movie, its just beyond belief.

- Alter course based on hearing a John Denver song? No one wants to get back in the pods? Tough, get in the fúcking pod as we have orders to travel to a different planet.

- Walking around with no helmets on an unknown planet. Who cares if its habitable, no idea what's down there. These people would have gone through extensive training before being selected for the mission. Yet they sh1tcan the main mission for nothing other than a transmission from an unknown planet.

- After witness crazy creatures bursting out of your crew mates, you put your trust in the first "person" who comes along (David). Here, follow me downstairs after I've just shown you a load of crazy sh1t in my lab. Don't worry, those eggs which only opened when you went near them, nothing to worry about, perfectly friendly. Why don't you stick your head in for a look? Actually, I think I will, cute little critters.... Absolute nonsense !!! This alone was the opportunity for the captain to kill David and destroy all of those eggs.

- Ridley Scott made this film. Let that sink in.

I could keep going. Absolute tripe.

The main thing that annoyed me about this movie is all of the characters are idiots and we, the audience, are considered idiots too to believe all of this nonsense.

In the end, I'm glad they all die, they all deserve it. And hopefully Scott doesn't make another.

Drumpot

Tony EH wrote: »

Ash was the one who opened the airlock after Rupley refused to do so, citing quarrantine proceedure. Ash (the robot) is under company orders to recind all other orders in order to "bring back lifeform".

Crew decision wasn't involved.

The "first contact" event in 'Alien' make sense. Even Kane's curiosity getting the better of him. In 1979, 99% of the audience would have looked into the egg briefly as well.

The same thing in 'Prometheus' and 'Covenant' is just stupid, given the context involved, even without knowledge that 'Alien' provides.

Later, in 'Alien' the crew do some, arguably, questionble things. Splitting up to go look for something that burst out of a man's chest. But, then, they lack choice here. They HAVE to find it as they have to go back to hypersleep for the journey home and leaving that running around isn't an option. Dallas going into the vents to flush the full grown alien out isn't the smartest. But again, there's a real lack of choice here and desparate times - desparate measures etc. In any case, he realises this and wants to back out. So, it's not done out of sheer stupidity.

Basically, you guys are rationalising the same issues you have with Covenant by creating your own narrative and assumptions about why its ok that Kane looked at the egg and our incompetent captain in Covenant didn't.

Why did the crew let Kane have lunch with them when the facehugger fell off ? If this happened in Covenant people would be spitting anger.... I know I wouldn't be sitting down having noodles with a person who just had an alien organism stuck to their face, not now, not in 1979!

You are allowed to just dislike a movie and be disappointed with Covenant.

For the record, I think the biggest issue is that neither this nor Prometheus had a proper "hero" like Ripley. I don't disagree that these movies were not as good as the originals, I just think people are picking out the wrong things that made this movie less enjoyable then the originals.