Alien: Covenant *Spoilers from post 747*

Tony EH

check_six wrote: »

Bear in mind that the original Nostromo crew from Alien were more or less truck drivers in space. They had a science officer with them in the form of Ash, but he wasn't exactly working in their best interests! I'd allow for Kane being more curious than cautious when encountering the alien eggs. The scientist lads from Prometheus have no excuse. They have traveled specifically to investigate a planet, so you'd think they'd be more careful when encountering weird beasties and substances. We'll have to wait and see how Covenant stacks up.

One of the worst sins of 'Prometheus' - the...ahem..."characters" - are ridiculous in their stupidity and questionable actions/motives.

Kane was an XO on a haulage ship, where the crew are essentially paid silly money to give up years of their life to haul fossil fuels from some unknown planet to Earth. They are "truckers" as you say and largely hate their job and probably find themselves in that position rather than choose it as a career.

The crew of the 'Prometheus' are supposed to be a scientific team especially tasked for a purpose and yet they are some of the worst representatives of anybody I've seen in any film. Some of them are simply arseholes, hello Fifield, who more than likely wouldn't get a spot on such a mission in the first place.

Sin City

Tony EH wrote: »

One of the worst sins of 'Prometheus' - the...ahem..."characters" - are ridiculous in their stupidity and questionable actions/motives.

Kane was an XO on a haulage ship, where the crew are essentially paid silly money to give up years of their life to haul fossil fuels from some unknown planet to Earth. They are "truckers" as you say and largely hate their job and probably find themselves in that position rather than choose it as a career.

The crew of the 'Prometheus' are supposed to be a scientific team especially tasked for a purpose and yet they are some of the worst representatives of anybody I've seen in any film. Some of them are simply arseholes, hello Fifield, who more than likely wouldn't get a spot on such a mission in the first place.

Baring in mind Waylen had an ulterior motive for the expedition
It was not to survey the planet for scientifc betterment but to extend his life
He also had no regard for human life - so I would imagine he wouldnt have gathered earths best and brightest in their field just anyone who could fit in with the rest without drawing attention to his master plan

Tony EH

The flipside to that is would he really hire clowns and risk fcuking his ulterior mission up? His last shot at achieving an extra few years of life?

That's a bit like getting a lift to the hospital with a guy who can't drive.

Besides, I don't think your point is really what the writers had in mind. It simply comes down to bad writing/characters and ill-thought out sequences to move the story along.

Sin City

All he needed was the pilot and a security crew and David
He gets Shaw and Holloyway in to satisfy any investors and the public that they are going on a scientific study voyage.
Eveyone else was just to help him hide in plane sight
while they go and explore or whatever he would be trying to find the engineers to have his life extended.


But yeah Its comically bad writing especially Milburn and Fiefield

pixelburp

Yeah, I think Prometheus' characterisations came down to bad writing. Simple as.

I generally find the biggest flaw in shoddy writing is often the inability to make characters behave like normal human beings. The horror genre is notoriously guilty of this trait, where the Idiot Ball gets passed around ad nauseum. For a bad writer the easier thing to do is always to force characters to suddenly behave in a manner to serve the plot; the harder thing to do is craft your story so that characters fall into the narrative more organically. Lindelof is not a good writer.

As to the trailer, you know, it looks fine. And at this point that's about as good as any new Alien movie can ever hope to be given the absolute depths the Alien V. Predator franchise sank the xenomorphs. As already said, the franchise is well-worn and familiar,& there's little that can be done to truly shock an audience so a competent, mid-range thriller will do very nicely.

Tony EH

Sin City wrote: »

All he needed was the pilot and a security crew and David

Then why not just go with them?

The guy's a multi-gazillionaire who owns the most powerful corporation known to man. He's beholden to nobody. He could simply make a crew of Davids.

Again, though, I have to say that the writers had none of this in their script or their minds. You're making the same mistakes I made when I came out of the film. You making your own logical leaps to give the bad writing a break. When I stopped doing that, I just had to accept that 'Prometheus' was, simply, a bad film.

Sin City wrote: »

He gets Shaw and Holloyway in to satisfy any investors and the public that they are going on a scientific study voyage.

Isn't Weyland the investor of the mission? As for the public...pfft. I don't think gazzilionaries really care too much about that.

Sin City wrote: »

But yeah Its comically bad writing especially Milburn and Fiefield

Yep, I think it just comes down to this and it didn't have to.

Your points about subversion are fine, but they remain your points and not the writers. You're filling in their logical gaps.

In the end 'Prometheus' remains one, humongous, missed opportunity to add something to the much abused Alien franchise.

Sin City

Tony EH wrote: »

Then why not just go with them?

The guy's a multi-gazillionaire who owns the most powerful corporation known to man. He's beholden to nobody. He could simply make a crew of Davids.

Again, though, I have to say that the writers had none of this in their script or their minds. You're making the same mistakes I made when I came out of the film. You making your own logical leaps to give the bad writing a break. When I stopped doing that, I just had to accept that 'Prometheus' was, simply, a bad film.



Isn't Weyland the investor of the mission? As for the public...pfft. I don't think gazzilionaries really care too much about that.



Yep, I think it just comes down to this and it didn't have to.

Your points about subversion are fine, but they remain your points and not the writers. You're filling in their logical gaps.

In the end 'Prometheus' remains one, humongous, missed opportunity to add something to the much abused Alien franchise.

Think Ill stick with my logical leaps to make the story seem somewhat plausible. Ignorance is bliss and all that but I take your statement on board

Tony EH

pixelburp wrote: »

Yeah, I think Prometheus' characterisations came down to bad writing. Simple as.

I generally find the biggest flaw in shoddy writing is often the inability to make characters behave like normal human beings. The horror genre is notoriously guilty of this trait, where the Idiot Ball gets passed around ad nauseum.

Often times though, in horror films, the guy/gal who has the idiot ball is usually an ordinary Joe soap, unaccustomed to what's happening and therefore subject to a bit of a stupid action here and there.

In 'Prometheus' we have scientists taking their helmets off on a planet they know fcuk all about. The same guy also sees he has an infection later on. Does he tell anyone, nah...fcuk it. A guy who's afraid pets an obviously dangerous looking penis creature and the other fella decides it's the right time to get wasted.

That's all just too much to forgive, even if we ignore the other silliness that's within the picture.

Tony EH

Sin City wrote: »

Think Ill stick with my logical leaps to make the story seem somewhat plausible. Ignorance is bliss and all that but I take your statement on board

Well, that's up to yourself of course. But the gap you filled for the problem in question doesn't salve the other issues in the film.

Like why an intelligent woman can't turn left or right. :pac:

razorblunt

It almost had me excited up until the "holy sh

---

" line, makes it look very PG-13.

Sin City

Tony EH wrote: »

Well, that's up to yourself of course. But the gap you filled for the problem in question doesn't salve the other issues in the film.

Like why an intelligent woman can't turn left or right. :pac:

That was the one thing that got to me. Everything else I could ignore but that was just awfully bad writing

seamus

There are about 20 minutes of deleted scenes in Prometheus which fill in a pile of blanks. Not explaining every single action is fine, but when you haven't really developed a character then any bizarre actions they take just ruin the narrative. If someone is going to do something extraordinary, then the audience needs a reason.

The writers of Prometheus wrote these reasons, the director filmed them and then cut them out. So you end up with a disjointed film of people you haven't really gotten to understand and so appear to do really bizarre and unbelievable things.

That said, the deleted scenes don't turn it into a great movie. But they do allow it to become at least a plausible narrative, and give you more connection to the characters.

Mickeroo

seamus wrote: »

There are about 20 minutes of deleted scenes in Prometheus which fill in a pile of blanks. Not explaining every single action is fine, but when you haven't really developed a character then any bizarre actions they take just ruin the narrative. If someone is going to do something extraordinary, then the audience needs a reason.

The writers of Prometheus wrote these reasons, the director filmed them and then cut them out. So you end up with a disjointed film of people you haven't really gotten to understand and so appear to do really bizarre and unbelievable things.

That said, the deleted scenes don't turn it into a great movie. But they do allow it to become at least a plausible narrative, and give you more connection to the characters.

So what reasoning was given for the zoologist guy acting like he was looking at a teddy bear when the space penis literally started imitating a cobra? :pac:

seamus

He had previously found a worm-like creature and caught one to bring back for further study.

The deleted scene established that he was a complete geek when it came to exobiology and tended to be overexcitable when it came to new forms of life and prone to rushing in without thinking. So it didn't try to show that it was a good idea to be so cocky with the space penis, but it did establish what he did as being in-character for him.

Tony EH

Mickeroo wrote: »

So what reasoning was given for the zoologist guy acting like he was looking at a teddy bear when the space penis literally started imitating a cobra?

Or why they would hook up a long dead head to the ship's leckie to...well, I've no idea what they were thinking there.

Or why it would even still have "life"?

Or why Shaw's "scientist" boyfriend goes into a depression after literally finding the discovery of a lifetime?

Or his not bothering to tell the rest of the crew that he has a potentially life threatening infection?

BTW, I remember reading the original script that was floating about after I'd seen the film and most of the stupid wasn't in it and AFAIR, that head had a bigger role to play. Which means that Scott/Lindelof put the stupid in and then later took out the reasons for the stupid.

Tony EH

seamus wrote: »

He had previously found a worm-like creature and caught one to bring back for further study.

The deleted scene established that he was a complete geek when it came to exobiology and tended to be overexcitable when it came to new forms of life and prone to rushing in without thinking. So it didn't try to show that it was a good idea to be so cocky with the space penis, but it did establish what he did as being in-character for him.

But, they kept the scene in where he was terrified of finding a dead alien? When minutes later he's baby talking the cobra penis?

seamus

Yep. So no matter how good any trailers for Covenant look, just remember that Ridley Scott can make a balls of the whole thing with some small edits.

artvanderlay

If Danny McBride plays Kenny Powers in this, it could be the greatest Alien film ever! From the trailer, how did Fassbender/David get the grand piano onto that planet?

Frank Bullitt

So that Alien isn't all CGI in this, they have Javier Botet dressed up to do the motion capture for some of the scenes.

Won't make the film that much better, but its good that they are doing something like that in my book.

Means Of Escape

Casting is dire
Many unknowns
Compared to Prometheus this alone will bring it down

Liam McPoyle

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Casting is dire
Many unknowns
Compared to Prometheus this alone will bring it down

G'way outta that.

What difference does that make?

I'd rather a cast of lesser known actors than a full set of "A" listers tbh.

Sad Professor

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Casting is dire
Many unknowns
Compared to Prometheus this alone will bring it down

Fassbender, Waterston, Crudup, McBride, Seimetz, and Franco are all well known actors and compare very favourably with Prometheus's cast, many of whom weren't that well known or were still up coming at the time.

Tony EH

The original 'Alien' featured unknowns and non stars. Veronica Cartwright, Harry Dean Stanton and John Hurt would probably have been the most recognisable faces in the cast. But, I'd say the average film goer didn't really know any of them.

Zubeneschamali

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Casting is dire
Many unknowns

The very least of its likely problems. Story and script are the big ones.

seamus

Rod Munch wrote: »

I'd rather a cast of lesser known actors than a full set of "A" listers tbh.

My overall experience is that a cast of A-listers leads to lazy and weak writing and corner-cutting elsewhere to try and pay inflated salaries. The entitlement culture of A-listers can also badly impede the progress filming as they demand more input into the process than other actors. Katherine Heigl is a perfect example of this. The more famous she became, the worse her movies became as her diva complex poisoned the whole process.

A cast of respected up-and-coming actors is about the best for a movie because nobody feels entitled to be there, but still have the confidence to provide input into the process.

Paleface

Good trailer.

Anyone have any theories as to why Franco is completely absent from the trailer?

In the prologue released last week his character said he was sick and this was before they went into cryo sleep.

Sin City

Paleface wrote: »

Good trailer.

Anyone have any theories as to why Franco is completely absent from the trailer?

In the prologue released last week his character said he was sick and this was before they went into cryo sleep.

Hes in the trailor
When he goes to cryo first the rest have a party

Sin City

Paleface

Sin City wrote: »

That screenshot is from the Prologue. Not the official trailer.

Sin City

Paleface wrote: »

That screenshot is from the Prologue. Not the official trailer.

Trailer 2 the last supper was released on Monday

Mickeroo

Sin City wrote: »

Trailer 2 the last supper was released on Monday

"Prologue: The Last Supper" Footage isn't from the film.

Paleface

Paleface wrote: »

Good trailer.

Anyone have any theories as to why Franco is completely absent from the trailer?

In the prologue released last week his character said he was sick and this was before they went into cryo sleep.

Hopefully they are holding a lot back, like the engineers, and shaw, and David

Means Of Escape

seamus wrote: »

My overall experience is that a cast of A-listers leads to lazy and weak writing and corner-cutting elsewhere to try and pay inflated salaries. The entitlement culture of A-listers can also badly impede the progress filming as they demand more input into the process than other actors. Katherine Heigl is a perfect example of this. The more famous she became, the worse her movies became as her diva complex poisoned the whole process.

A cast of respected up-and-coming actors is about the best for a movie because nobody feels entitled to be there, but still have the confidence to provide input into the process.

Fair enough but when I saw Franco as the captain and the crew made up of unknowns it smacked of a sci if series from an Amazon channel
Elba was excellent in Prometheus
From the clip it's looking like a rehash full of actors as cannon fodder

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

Alonso77

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Hopefully they are holding a lot back, like the engineers, and shaw, and David

Agreed, it would be ridiculous to have all that unanswered element of Prometheus just disregarded or glossed over.

Especially the giant mural and that green/emeraldy rock shaped device/button in the mural giant head room.

What the bejaysus was going on there?!?

helimachoptor

jacksie66 wrote: »

I see a good chunk was filmed in New Zealand. Spotted Milford Sound in that trailer. Recognised it because I was only there last year..

Subtle look at me I'm loaded I went to new zealand

I'm really looking forward to this film, hopefully it delivers at least a portion of Alien or Aliens

Means Of Escape

So Weyland industries has sent this crew of couples to build a better world and populate the planet
Despite his massive investment in this mission and the risk of losing everything from what Shaw had encountered we see a happy go lucky crew walking around an unchartered planet .

Yutani would have put a better team forward .

Means Of Escape

Tony EH wrote: »

The original 'Alien' featured unknowns and non stars. Veronica Cartwright, Harry Dean Stanton and John Hurt would probably have been the most recognisable faces in the cast. But, I'd say the average film goer didn't really know any of them.

Yaphet Koto, Tom Skerrit and Ian Holm unknown ?!?

Means Of Escape

Means Of Escape wrote: »

So Weyland industries has sent this crew of couples to build a better world and populate the planet
Despite his massive investment in this mission and the risk of losing everything from what Shaw had encountered we see a happy go lucky crew walking around an unchartered planet .

Yutani would have put a better team forward .

Same concept with aliens.

I have to laugh at the way Prometheus was ridiculed for bad writing and interstellar was lauded. Interstellar is ridiculous, turned up to 11, but I enjoyed both movies cos I'm not looking for reality when I go cinema

Ben Gadot

Means Of Escape wrote: »

So Weyland industries has sent this crew of couples to build a better world and populate the planet
Despite his massive investment in this mission and the risk of losing everything from what Shaw had encountered we see a happy go lucky crew walking around an unchartered planet .

Yutani would have put a better team forward .

It's not far fetched really and is comparable to the original.

Knowingly send a bunch of plebs for the slaughter and let the singular android pick up the data and species that come with it.

Means Of Escape

Ben Gadot wrote: »

It's not far fetched really and is comparable to the original.

Knowingly send a bunch of plebs for the slaughter and let the singular android pick up the data and species that come with it.

This is Weyland industry second attempt to gather a xenomorph and despite the company knowing how dangerous it is and it costing their founders life they were relying on a replicant to be successful despite the failure of the previous ?

Guess they got it right with the team they sent to to retrieve a specimen from Fiorina Fury 161

Means Of Escape

Means Of Escape wrote: »

This is Weyland industry second attempt to gather a xenomorph and despite the company knowing how dangerous it is and it costing their founders life they were relying on a replicant to be successful despite the failure of the previous ?

Guess they got it right with the team they sent to to retrieve a specimen from Fiorina Fury 161

Who says weylands intention is to obtain a xenomorph. Nobody really saw a xenomorph in Prometheus, Only shaw saw the squid. It's more than likely that weyland are still interested in the engineers at this stage

When was their first attempt?

Means Of Escape

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Who says weylands intention is to obtain a xenomorph. Nobody really saw a xenomorph in Prometheus, Only shaw saw the squid. It's more than likely that weyland are still interested in the engineers at this stage

When was their first attempt?

David knew all about the engineers as did Weyland and knew they were present in the structure
None of the crew had a clue despite symbols of the xenomorphs emblazoned in the main holding chamber .

First attempt to harness their power by deliberately infecting member of the crew .

Tony EH

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Yaphet Koto, Tom Skerrit and Ian Holm unknown ?!?

In 1979, yeh. The average punter wouldn't have known who they were.

Means Of Escape

Means Of Escape wrote: »

This is Weyland industry second attempt to gather a xenomorph and despite the company knowing how dangerous it is and it costing their founders life they were relying on a replicant to be successful despite the failure of the previous ?

Guess they got it right with the team they sent to to retrieve a specimen from Fiorina Fury 161

But weyland was killed by an engineer
Weyland didn't come face to face with any creatures
The black goo was a side story and not the actual mission
I don't believe David was trying to harness the power of a xenomorph. He was experimenting, and let the infected dr have free roam of the ship they all shared. Not very clever if he was trying to harness the power of a xenomorph

I can't see how the second movies driving theme is weyland Corp setting out to gather a xenomorph.
The only creatures that anyone saw was a worm and a zombie?, only shaw saw the squid and nobody saw the alien at the end.

Means Of Escape

[Deleted User] wrote: »

But weyland was killed by an engineer
Weyland didn't come face to face with any creatures
The black goo was a side story and not the actual mission
I don't believe David was trying to harness the power of a xenomorph. He was experimenting, and let the infected dr have free roam of the ship they all shared. Not very clever if he was trying to harness the power of a xenomorph

I can't see how the second movies driving theme is weyland Corp setting out to gather a xenomorph.
The only creatures that anyone saw was a worm and a zombie?, only shaw saw the squid and nobody saw the alien at the end.

Borgia industries wanted bio weaponry
Yutani built the David series synthetic
Weyland industries tied to both .
Peter Weyland asked David to gather as much information from the chamber
His mission was for cure and bio weaponry prospects .
David 8 in Covenant more determined to succeed .

Hopefully this might come out in the wash in Covenant and make it a great movie .

Means Of Escape

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Borgia industries wanted bio weaponry
Yutani built the David series synthetic
Weyland industries tied to both .
Peter Weyland asked David to gather as much information from the chamber
His mission was for cure and bio weaponry prospects .
David 8 in Covenant more determined to succeed


Hopefully this might come out in the wash in Covenant and make it a great movie .

Is this from a comic?

Means Of Escape

Tony EH wrote: »

In 1979, yeh. The average punter wouldn't have known who they were.

Koto - Thomas Crown Affair ,Live and let die ,Raid on Entebbe
Holm- Juggernaut, Robin and Marian ,Man in the Iron Mask

Box office movies before Alien

Means Of Escape

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is this from a comic?

From the books .

Means Of Escape

Means Of Escape wrote: »

From the books .

Engineer wept