Alien: Covenant *Spoilers from post 747*

Zubeneschamali

Bacchus wrote: »

It's easy to just accept that those movies were made in a different era that viewed the future through the eyes of the technology at the time and that these movies are doing the same.

Movies are a visual medium. If it doesn't look related, it won't feel related.

Take Rogue One - they went to great lengths to make the movie line up with Star Wars, the original movie, because it is supposed to end hours before that movie starts.

Should they just have said "Who cares? That movie is 70s, and this one is being made 40 years later - lets have slicker holograms and computer interfaces and everyone with a mobile phone!".

Well, no, that would be jarring and the movie would not feel related.

Lucas's prequels have an excuse for looking shinier: they are set before 20 years of Imperial misrule. Aliens has an excuse - it is set 50+years after Alien.

Prometheus has no excuse, the people making it just didn't care.

Bacchus

Tony EH wrote: »

Who's "ignoring" it?

Pointing out an anachronism in a film isn't ignoring something.

Correct me if I've mistaken your stance here but you are advocating that the new Alien movies should purposefully set the bar for technology (clunky push buttons, tiny CRT screens that display text like a dot-matrix printer, etc.) because that's what the originals had. Essentially, this is ignoring the advances in technology over the past 30 years the the point where my phone is far more powerful than the space ships computer. Keep the decor and styling to match the tone of the universe but (even though we're talking about a sci-fi movie with chest bursting aliens) it removes the movies from "reality" that modern technology is not reflected in the technology of the future.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Movies are a visual medium. If it doesn't look related, it won't feel related.

Take Rogue One - they went to great lengths to make the movie line up with Star Wars, the original movie, because it is supposed to end hours before that movie starts.

Should they just have said "Who cares? That movie is 70s, and this one is being made 40 years later - lets have slicker holograms and computer interfaces and everyone with a mobile phone!".

Well, no, that would be jarring and the movie would not feel related.

Lucas's prequels have an excuse for looking shinier: they are set before 20 years of Imperial misrule. Aliens has an excuse - it is set 50+years after Alien.

Prometheus has no excuse, the people making it just didn't care.

Star Wars is a poor example (as I said already) as the universe is quite timeless and technology doesn't seem to evolve. Also, the technology is often fantastical and has no relationship to modern tech. Technologies there exist and always have. What Rogue One did was match the style of Ep IV which I have no problem with. Also they showing scenes that were set on the same location as in Ep IV so there was a greater requirement to look consistent.

To be clear, I've no issue with matching the "look" and "feel" of the movies. It's the willingness to ignore technology advances in the real world, restricting us forever to what the 70s thought the future would look like, that I have an issue with.

Zubeneschamali

Bacchus wrote: »

Correct me if I've mistaken your stance here but you are advocating that the new Alien movies should purposefully set the bar for technology (clunky push buttons, tiny CRT screens that display text like a dot-matrix printer, etc.) because that's what the originals had.

In the original Alien, the Company could build an android so good it was indistinguishable from Ian Holm, but Mother, the ships computer, was a clunky mainframe with clackety keyboard CRT terminals. Why? Who knows?

It's just one of those things in the movie's Universe, never explained.

And Prometheus is clearly not in that Universe.

Bacchus

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

In the original Alien, the Company could build an android so good it was indistinguishable from Ian Holm, but Mother, the ships computer, was a clunky mainframe with clackety keyboard CRT terminals. Why? Who knows?

It's just one of those things in the movie's Universe, never explained.

And Prometheus is clearly not in that Universe.

Why? Because it's surprisingly easy to have an actor play an android that looks like a real human but touch screen technology didn't exist.

The restrictions on the technology of the movie we're founded in the restrictions of the era in which the movie was made. Why continue to apply those restrictions? You can still keep the look and feel of the universe but just update the tech so that it fits with the world that we live in today.

Zubeneschamali

Bacchus wrote: »

You can still keep the look and feel of the universe but just update the tech so that it fits with the world that we live in today.

No, you really can't, because holodisplays and so forth don't come from the same era as clacky keyboards, so the look and feel is different.

Tony EH

Bacchus wrote: »

Correct me if I've mistaken your stance here but you are advocating that the new Alien movies should purposefully set the bar for technology (clunky push buttons, tiny CRT screens that display text like a dot-matrix printer, etc.) because that's what the originals had. Essentially, this is ignoring the advances in technology over the past 30 years the the point where my phone is far more powerful than the space ships computer. Keep the decor and styling to match the tone of the universe but (even though we're talking about a sci-fi movie with chest bursting aliens) it removes the movies from "reality" that modern technology is not reflected in the technology of the future.

I'm not saying that as people we should ignore techological advances no.

However, I am saying that if you're making a prequel to an already established series of films that takes place in the future (sometimes far) that it's wise to at least try and establish a look that feels like it's happening before them to avoid the obvious anachronisms that will arise from imprudent desires to wow.

I'm also not saying that Scott should have gone to back lots and car boot sales to russle up some green screens, Commodore 64 keyboards and CRTs. Flat screens would be perfectly fine. But he could have also lessened the CGI **** that put on the screen in 'Prometheus'.

'Prometheus' just goes too far (I think even Scott admitted this) and none of the fan excuses work and they are just excuses. The simple fact is that they just weren't bothered.

It's incredibly jarring to watch the series if you include 'Prometheus' among the list.

The thing is, the film could have worked just as well as a sequel. Or an insert between 'Alien 3' and 'Alien: Ressurection', not that I even consider that film as part of the series any more. 'Prometheus' may have been bad, but by god, 'Alien: Ressurection' takes the biscuit.

buried

ricero

Kenny ****ing powers

Ipso

Ridley says he is planning on six more movies.

Tony EH

?

He's nearly 80.

Tony EH

Tony EH wrote: »

?

He's nearly 80.

It's grand, he knows some engineers

WHIP IT!

Having been in and out of this thread all week, I decided to give Prometheus another watch today. I think this was my third viewing. I must say, despite some of the horrifically dumb parts - not least of course Charlize Theron's laughable death scene - I actually quite enjoyed it this time... third time's a charm! I still don't like it - but I guess I no longer hate it...

TerrorFirmer

WHIP IT! wrote: »

Having been in and out of this thread all week, I decided to give Prometheus another watch today. I think this was my third viewing. I must say, despite some of the horrifically dumb parts - not least of course Charlize Theron's laughable death scene - I actually quite enjoyed it this time... third time's a charm! I still don't like it - but I guess I no longer hate it...

I re-watched it the other day as well and while I liked it initially I found I liked it even more on a second viewing. It is a solid movie, maybe not what we would have hoped for but to call it bad is unfair.

Currently watching Alien vs Predator....now that is a terrible movie devoid of any redeeming qualities and entirely deserving of all the flack it gets and more besides.

ebbsy

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

WHIP IT! wrote: »

Having been in and out of this thread all week, I decided to give Prometheus another watch today. I think this was my third viewing. I must say, despite some of the horrifically dumb parts - not least of course Charlize Theron's laughable death scene - I actually quite enjoyed it this time... third time's a charm! I still don't like it - but I guess I no longer hate it...

I re-watched it the other day as well and while I liked it initially I found I liked it even more on a second viewing. It is a solid movie, maybe not what we would have hoped for but to call it bad is unfair.

Currently watching Alien vs Predator....now that is a terrible movie devoid of any redeeming qualities and entirely deserving of all the flack it gets and more besides.

I agree. I thought Prometheus was a good film and certainly worth the entrance fee.

WHIP IT!

TerrorFirmer wrote:

I re-watched it the other day as well and while I liked it initially I found I liked it even more on a second viewing. It is a solid movie, maybe not what we would have hoped for but to call it bad is unfair.

I think that might be what it boils down to for me - it just wasn't what I was hoping for or expecting at the time. I guess I've made my peace with it by now

PooArse

Ipso wrote: »

Ridley says he is planning on six more movies.

Convinced he has nothing to do with these movies anymore and just throws his name on them and gets in a few set photos

TerrorFirmer

What are people's thoughts on Alien VS Predator and AVP2? I think the first one is a steaming pile, so unbelievably cheesy and hammed up beyond all reasonable tolerance for even the most casual fan of either franchise. It's an abomination that's difficult to sit through without getting angry.

On the other hand - and maybe only because AVP is that terrible - I think AVP: Requiem is a massive improvement, with a half serviceable story, vastly improved cinematography and direction and overall captures the tone of the Alien/Predator films incomparably better (notwithstanding it's still not a great film). It is to AVP, in my mind, what Plan 9 from Outer Space is to Citizen Kane.

But funny enough critics rated the first movie much higher in general as did cinema goers. Thoughts?

I dont know how scientific this is :-) but I watched AVP to the end, I had to turn off requiem 1/3 of way through

pixelburp

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

What are people's thoughts on Alien VS Predator and AVP2? I think the first one is a steaming pile, so unbelievably cheesy and hammed up beyond all reasonable tolerance for even the most casual fan of either franchise. It's an abomination that's difficult to sit through without getting angry.

On the other hand - and maybe only because AVP is that terrible - I think AVP: Requiem is a massive improvement, with a half serviceable story, vastly improved cinematography and direction and overall captures the tone of the Alien/Predator films incomparably better (notwithstanding it's still not a great film). It is to AVP, in my mind, what Plan 9 from Outer Space is to Citizen Kane.

But funny enough critics rated the first movie much higher in general as did cinema goers. Thoughts?

I'd side with the critics: AVP: Requiem was a hamfisted fan-film masquerading as a major motion picture. It contrived to include plot & characters even worse than the first crossover film; at least AvP had a competent set of professionals & scientists with some cliff notes of backstory & narrative drive, rather than the bimbos and 'slasher' fodder in the sequel that we were meant to give a sh*t about. Requiem also had a really nasty, mean spirited streak that substituted adolescent gore & tasteless shock for any real menace or threat, like the idiot film-makers giddily thought a lack of gore was the sole reason the first movie failed. The maternity ward scene was the precise moment I checked out and decided the film could go f*ck itself.

Certainly wouldn't agree about the cinematography either; from what I recall it was horribly shot, many fight scenes being a confusing and dark blur of flailing limbs that made it really hard to know WTF was going on. I'm still not sure what happened in the supposedly climatic fight on the roof of the hospital. Even Michael Bay knows how to properly block a shot.

F*ck AvP: Requiem, frankly. It did more damage to both respective franchises than Prometheus, or Predator 2 ever managed

Tony EH

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

What are people's thoughts on Alien VS Predator and AVP2? I think the first one is a steaming pile, so unbelievably cheesy and hammed up beyond all reasonable tolerance for even the most casual fan of either franchise. It's an abomination that's difficult to sit through without getting angry.

On the other hand - and maybe only because AVP is that terrible - I think AVP: Requiem is a massive improvement, with a half serviceable story, vastly improved cinematography and direction and overall captures the tone of the Alien/Predator films incomparably better (notwithstanding it's still not a great film). It is to AVP, in my mind, what Plan 9 from Outer Space is to Citizen Kane.

But funny enough critics rated the first movie much higher in general as did cinema goers. Thoughts?

I actually have some time for 'Alien vs Predator'. It's sort of entertaining in a B movie kind of way. Did it need to be made? No. Does it add anything to the Alien universe? Not really. But, it was enjoyable enough.

The pretentiously titled 'Aliens vs Predator: Requiem' ( :rolleyes: ) wasn't as entertaining, despite some very good visuals. The story is silly and it's littered with annoying characters. Plus the nuking of the town at the end? WTF?

To be Honest, I have more time for AVP these days than I do for 'Prometheus'. It doesn't ask anything of me and delivers what I ask of it.

Mickeroo

Yeah would definitely choose the first AvP over the second too, at least it vaguely tried to tie in with the rest of the franchise and took story elements from the AvP graphic novel (which I still maintain could have been a really good action film). Requiem had no redeeming qualities at all for me.

TerrorFirmer

That's interesting really that I appear to be out on my own - the first film I just found so outrageously cheesy that I couldn't let myself just enjoy it. Requiem I just found entirely more watchable and I do have to say I think it's largely due to your assertion Tony that it is a much stronger film visually and for me, nowhere near as cartoon-like as the first film - that visual tone more consistent with that of the franchise it's based on scored major points with me.

Equally fully agree that the characters were appalling in Requiem, though. I know it does also get flak for being far too dark - in the literal sense I mean - but I found watching it the other night, I found it worked perfectly fine but this may be because I have a pretty good TV with excellent blacks.

In fairness with that in mind I can't imagine how crap and confusing it would look with a lower quality transfer and/or on a mediocre TV.

I'm re-watching all the films again ahead of Covenant but for me Predator 2, AVP and Alien 3 go to the bottom of the sin bin (arguably Alien 3 more so simply because I expected so much more of it - I didn't expect anything from Paul WS Anderson's AVP whatsoever except a faint hope of being grandly entertained).

Tony EH

If you're in a minority about AvP:R, then I share that with 'Alien 3' apparently. But, I really enjoy that film and I actually prefer the theatrical cut too - The "assembly cut" being just too long and full of fluff. Never really understood the ire that that film receives though. I know a lot of fans got nose bent out of shape that they killed off Newt and Hicks and the fans of 'Aliens' wanted a re-run of that, but I thought that was great personally. People die. It also give Ripley's character more dimension, when the death of her real daughter is taken into account in 'Aliens'.

'Alien 3' has its flaws, but they're forgivable and besides, every Alien film has flaws.

To me the trilogy was near perfect. Pity it wasn't just left alone.

Liam McPoyle

Its been quite some time since I've seen either but I seem to remember enjoying Requiem a lot more. Didn't like the first one at all. Must give then another spin for the lols.

TheDoc

Big into AVP games and comics, the films massively disappointed.

While I can watch both, I can't help think "how could you mess this up so bad" in both accounts. So yeah I don't value or rate them at all, and there are many films with characters or universes important to me that I absolutely covet and won't hear a bad word said, but can't defend those films.

They really just needed to do the setting in the Alien Universe, with Colonial marines and it would be happy days.

DvB

pixelburp wrote: »

I'd side with the critics: AVP: Requiem was a hamfisted fan-film masquerading as a major motion picture. It contrived to include plot & characters even worse than the first crossover film; at last AvP had a competent set of professionals & scientists with some cliff notes of backstory & narrative drive, rather than the bimbos and 'slasher' fodder in the sequel that we were meant to give a sh*t about. Requiem also had a really nasty, mean spirited streak that substituted adolescent gore & tasteless shock for any real menace or threat, like the idiot film-makers giddily thought a lack of gore was the sole reason the first movie failed. The maternity ward seen was the precise moment I checked out and decided the film could go f*ck itself.

Certainly wouldn't agree about the cinematography either; from what I recall it was horribly shot, many fight scenes being a confusing and dark blur of flailing limbs that made it really hard to know WTF was going on. I'm still not sure what happened in the supposedly climatic fight on the roof of the hospital. Even Michael Bay knows how to properly block a shot.

F*ck AvP: Requiem, frankly. It did more damage to both respective franchises than Prometheus, or Predator 2 ever managed

Largely agree with this.
I dont have much in the way or memory of this film having just watched it the once when it first came out on DVD, but what I do remember was terribly dark scenes (& dark as in a lack of light, not violence etc.) where it was virtually impossible to know what was happening... even watching at night with all the lights out it was a chore trying to make out anything of note... I suppose one day I may end up catching this on film 4 or suchlike but unless I'm in a particularly forgiving mood I'll not be hanging around to give it a second chance.

buried

Love 'Alien3', the way the creature moved differently after being DNA birthed from an animal instead of a human, running on all fours like a dog, that was a brilliant touch. The cast is fantastic too, Charles Dance, Charles S. Dutton as 'Dillon' was brilliant aswell, and yer man from Withnail & I. It was good tack, the no weapons thing which harked back to the first one was a good touch too, David Fincher did a good job IMO

Never seen the Aliens vs Predator films, 'Resurrection' killed it for me, that thing was done like an absolute p!ss-take on the entire story so I ignored those AvP ones when they came out, are they worth a look at all?

Tony EH

To be perfectly honest, you're really missing nothing by not bothering with anything after 'Alien 3' really.

TerrorFirmer

buried wrote: »

Never seen the Aliens vs Predator films, 'Resurrection' killed it for me, that thing was done like an absolute p!ss-take on the entire story so I ignored those AvP ones when they came out, are they worth a look at all?

Honestly, no. I do usually manage to find merit in almost anything, and braindead popcorn cinema is a guilty pleasure of mine, but AVP is just an abomination that has literally nothing going for it.

And I actually like Resurrection for what it is if that helps reinforce the point. I personally find Requiem much more watchable but it is tied somewhat into the first film.

ebbsy

Tony EH wrote: »

I actually have some time for 'Alien vs Predator'. It's sort of entertaining in a B movie kind of way. Did it need to be made? No. Does it add anything to the Alien universe? Not really. But, it was enjoyable enough.

The pretentiously titled 'Aliens vs Predator: Requiem' ( :rolleyes: ) wasn't as entertaining, despite some very good visuals. The story is silly and it's littered with annoying characters. Plus the nuking of the town at the end? WTF?

To be Honest, I have more time for AVP these days than I do for 'Prometheus'. It doesn't ask anything of me and delivers what I ask of it.

Seriously bud ?

Frank Bullitt

There is an edit of Alien 3 that really makes the film much different, the Assembly cut. Highly recommend it.

TerrorFirmer

Gintonious wrote: »

There is an edit of Alien 3 that really makes the film much different, the Assembly cut. Highly recommend it.

I actually just watched that - my first thought, is that it is most definitely an improvement on theatrical, but having said that, it's still not a very good film.

In it's own right it's not terrible and has some good points, but just as an 'Alien' film and in particular a direct sequel to 'Aliens' it's way short of the mark.

It's not about the lack of action despite the radical shift from the action spectacle that was Aliens - but the whole production from characters, to plot, and pacing are just far too muddled and I find it an extremely difficult film to get invested in, outside of Ripley herself.

I find it staggering to read there was an initial action-centric script which followed on from Aliens that focused on Hicks, the spreading of the Xenomorph to an outer colony and the shady dominance of corporate power that exists in the Alien universe.

I mean I understand (and appreciate) the desire to create something new, but I'm just tremendously surprised that senior executives at Fox would dismiss that concept in favour of the script for Alien3!

Gibson was the first of ten different writers to tackle the Alien3 project, and his first draft screenplay is arguably the most well-known of the unmade scripts for the film as it has been available to read on the internet for many years. The story bears no relation to Alien3 as it was ultimately made, and instead revolves around Dwayne Hicks and Bishop battling genetically-altered Xenomorphs aboard an enormous space station named Anchorpoint.

Gibson later produced a second draft of his script in 1988,[1] altering the overall tone of the screenplay fairly drastically — whereas the first draft is an action extravaganza very much in the vein of Aliens, the second draft radically scales back the number of Xenomorph antagonists to just three, and instead presents a story more akin to the claustrophobic horror of Alien. However, both iterations of Gibson's screenplay were turned down by the studio.

Also interesting note from first rejected script:

Another notable aspect of the script is that it explicitly states the Xenomorphs began as an artificially engineered creature; at one point, one of the U.P.P. characters mentions that it is "as though the [Xenomorph's] gene-structure had been designed for ease of manipulation", going on to theorize that they were created by an unknown extraterrestrial race for use as a biological weapon. This concept has long been a popular theory amongst fans of the series (and is even shared by Alien director Ridley Scott[2]), but has never been officially confirmed.

Alien3, ultimately....I'm hesitant to say it's the worst entry in the extended franchise (because frankly that seems wrong with movies like AVP in existence), but at the same time, for me, it's guilty of the dual crime of being neither particularly engaging, whilst simultaneously failing to be overly entertaining, either - it just toes the line and remains watchable but little more.

I genuinely think it's a very weak sequel/entry as a big fan of the franchise, even though the assembly cut is an improvement....but there's only so much can be done to repair a deeply flawed concept. It'll be a few years before I watch Alien, Aliens and Prometheus again....but Alien3 is a film I have no interest in ever sitting through again, alongside AVP and AVP2.

Sad Professor

Now this is one awesome poster!

klose

Was just about to post it.! Don't really do posters in my room but will definitely be picking up one of those.

Zubeneschamali

Sad Professor wrote: »

Now this is one awesome poster!

Still looking very like Aliens to me, in this case the walls of the nest in the atmosphere plant.

Frank Bullitt

Thats savage, lets hope the move is as good as the poster.

TerrorFirmer

Great poster. What does it tell us? Features the Xenomorph, a Queen, Engineers....

Frank Bullitt

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Great poster. What does it tell us? Features the Xenomorph, a Queen, Engineers....

Where is the Queen?

Alonso77

Gintonious wrote: »

Where is the Queen?

Behind the middle xeno, you can see the 'crown' of the queen or at least looks like it to me, could be wrong

Mr Crispy

Interesting that they put it there, but still obscured it. Are they hinting that the queen will be in the movie but didn't want to out and out spoil it, or is it just a little something to get fans chatting?

Frank Bullitt

Alonso77 wrote: »

Behind the middle xeno, you can see the 'crown' of the queen or at least looks like it to me, could be wrong

It does look queen-esque

TerrorFirmer

It's not that one - above that normal Xenomorph you can see the huge crown of the queen occupying the top portion of the poster.

Mickeroo

The two Xeno's to the right of that one look like Queens too.

Zubeneschamali

Mickeroo wrote: »

The two Xeno's to the right of that one look like Queens too.

I really hate this humanoid Engineer bullsh!t. Such a failure of imagination.

Bacchus

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I really hate this humanoid Engineer bullsh!t. Such a failure of imagination.

Well I think the idea is that we were created in their image.

Tony EH

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I really hate this humanoid Engineer bullsh!t. Such a failure of imagination.

Yeh, I found it very disappointing to find out that the space jockey was just a guy in a suit. A stupid, impractical, ridiculous and unwieldy suit. :rolleyes:

One of the best mysteries in 'Alien' crushed in an instant by an incredibly bad idea.

Zubeneschamali

Bacchus wrote: »

Well I think the idea is that we were created in their image.

One cool thing about Alien and Aliens is that the Aliens are alien, not Star Trek/Star Wars humans in a rubber mask, but actual aliens, unrelated to us and our insignificant planet in any way.

But now the alien space jockey turns out to be just a blue dude in a suit.

And the blue dudes were here on Earth, and left maps for us.

Look, we're important again! It's all about us! Aliens explain religion!

Oh, shut up.

Bacchus

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

One cool thing about Alien and Aliens is that the Aliens are alien, not Star Trek/Star Wars humans in a rubber mask, but actual aliens, unrelated to us and our insignificant planet in any way.

But now the alien space jockey turns out to be just a blue dude in a suit.

And the blue dudes were here on Earth, and left maps for us.

Look, we're important again! It's all about us! Aliens explain religion!

Oh, shut up.

I do totally agree that revealing the mystery removes the intrigue and you're better off just keeping the Aliens 'alien' and unknown. However, the question of the space jockey was a burning one for a long time and the idea that they are these engineers spreading life around the universe, and that the aliens were a bio-weapon to clean any messes is a neat one to me. It doesn't diminish the devastation of them or Weyland Corps obsession with them. That said, I'd prefer they just left it at the space jockeys falling victim to the aliens too but all in all, I like the way they went with it. The whole Space-Jesus stuff can feck right off... at least that was toned down in the final version of Prometheus.

Tony EH

Bacchus wrote: »

I do totally agree that revealing the mystery removes the intrigue and you're better off just keeping the Aliens 'alien' and unknown. However, the question of the space jockey was a burning one for a long time and the idea that they are these engineers spreading life around the universe, and that the aliens were a bio-weapon to clean any messes is a neat one to me. It doesn't diminish the devastation of them or Weyland Corps obsession with them. That said, I'd prefer they just left it at the space jockeys falling victim to the aliens too but all in all, I like the way they went with it. The whole Space-Jesus stuff can feck right off... at least that was toned down in the final version of Prometheus.

It isn't very logical though is it?

The idea that you'd use something like the xenomorph as a weapon is mind-numbingly dumb. This is a weapon that, more than likely, is much, much worse than the enemy you want to destroy, leaving you with an even harder enemy to deal with. Plus, their ability to breed makes them an extreme danger to everything including the user.

There isn't any situation where this thing can be used as a logical weapon. It's just a ridiculous idea to me.

While people like the idea of solving a mystery, when the answers turn out to be so thick, it's better to just leave the mystery.

El Duda

Still more logical than weaponised Raptors though!