Can anyone please help me understand the Republican Party?

Overheal

I never really thought the GOP would stoop so low as to claim one of the founding fathers as their own.

Lincoln was certainly not a founding father....

Amerika

The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »

Why would they join a party which they are personally against?

Its not very tolerant or inclusive to promote segregation or treating another group as lesser. Why were those supporting a person refusing to provide marriage licenses to those entitled to one republicans?

For an inclusive and tolerant group very few of its members come across as either of those things.

Tolerance, Inclusiveness, and Optimism: We believe in the right of fellow Republicans to disagree on certain matters of principle and policy. We believe in being an open and inclusive party respectful of different points of view. We are indeed a "big-tent" party that offers no "litmus tests" or barriers to entry.

And some candidates supported that person, some didn't.

FreshCoffee

Amerika wrote: »

Northeastern Illinois University. One of our fine liberal arts institutions.

They sure have an odd way of spelling 'Republican.'

Geez.. anyone with even rudimentary knowledge of US history knows Abraham Lincoln was a Republican president.

The above plaque was derided on Twitter for it's error.
www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/nov/4/abraham-lincoln-democrat-northeastern-illinois/

The Randy Riverbeast

Amerika wrote: »

And some candidates supported that person, some didn't.

Fair enough, it's like Irish being the first language of Ireland.

On paper its one thing but in practice it isn't and to claim that it isnt has people yelling about the democrats/British.

20Cent

FreshCoffee wrote: »

Geez.. anyone with even rudimentary knowledge of US history knows Abraham Lincoln was a Republican president.

The above plaque was derided on Twitter for it's error.
www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/nov/4/abraham-lincoln-democrat-northeastern-illinois/

The plaque is on that building over 100 years and refers to Lincons advocacy for democracy rather than a party affiliation.

Amerika

20Cent wrote: »

The plaque is on that building over 100 years and refers to Lincons advocacy for democracy rather than a party affiliation.

Okay, LOL. Well then, they sure have an odd way of spelling 'Democracy.' 'Republic' would have been more accurate. :rolleyes:

20Cent

Amerika wrote: »

Okay, LOL. Well then, they sure have an odd way of spelling 'Democracy.' 'Republic' would have been more accurate. :rolleyes:

Wouldn't it be democrat if referring to a single person rather than Abraham Lincon Democracy?

Anyway there is no democrat party it's the Democratic Party. Democrat is usually used as a slur when referring to Democratic Party members.

ECO_Mental

Amerika wrote: »

I believe you will find that the majority of GOP candidates (that have a chance of winning the GOP primary) may be personally against gay marriage, but are politically ambiguous to it.

So are you admitting that the GOP aren't the most inclusive bunch of lads because you didn't refute my other arguments and you are admitting that they discriminate against the lgbt of your country at least.

This is a big problem for the GOP I have mentioned this here before, but they are alienating vast swathes of the population and there is no future for the GOP if they continue down this line

The Black Oil

Amerika wrote: »

The basic Republican principles...

Tolerance, Inclusiveness, and Optimism: We believe in the right of fellow Republicans to disagree on certain matters of principle and policy. We believe in being an open and inclusive party respectful of different points of view. We are indeed a "big-tent" party that offers no "litmus tests" or barriers to entry

I think that's true within the boundaries of the party, for the most part. Forina said it in an interview I heard a while back - the current slew of candidates reflects libertarians to social conservatives and you may not get a similar spread on the Democratic side because they're expected to tow the line.

As to tolerance in general, that's more a problematic issue for Republicans, imo. Question their Official Version of America (™) even in a small way, and you better believe you'll catch heat for it i.e. tolerance, but solely on their terms. Speak a language other than English at some media event or similar, oh boy. Ponder a little about guns or Christianity, hmm, good luck there. Sure, some of this is theatrics, the election cycle, mud-slinging and having to live up to narratives pushed by Fox News, but I do think tolerance and Republicans raises a serious question mark, at times.

Zascar

From Robert Reich:

Actually I’m amazed John Boehner survived as long as he has. His one virtue as Speaker of the House has been his total lack of principle, which has enabled him to cobble together majorities or pluralities out of a Party that’s gone off the rails, becoming increasingly misogynist, homophobic, anti-immigrant, and anti-Muslim; filled with paranoid whackos, voodoo economists, anti-science half-brains, creationists, and white supremists; while being financed by billionaires, Wall Street, and big business.

The problem for the rest of us right now is they’re still a majority in Congress, and many are aiming to close down the government unless Planned Parenthood is defunded -- and then to default on the nation’s debt rather than lift the debt limit.

John Boehner will not go down in history as one of America's greatest Speakers of the House, but at least he served as something of a buffer between the Republican crazies and the rest of America. (This morning when Marco Rubio announced Boehner's plan to retire, attendees at the Values Voter Summit in Washington roared their approval and then rose in a standing ovation.) After the end of October, that buffer is gone.

These words from Clinton's Secretary of Labour - gotta make you wonder..

Overheal

well, he's not wrong.

also idk if you broke the firewall @ work for facebook or its just coincidence, but cheers for that.

20Cent

Zascar wrote: »

From Robert Reich:



These words from Clinton's Secretary of Labour - gotta make you wonder..

Can't tell if you agree or disagree with it!

Fr Tod Umptious

jank wrote: »

Think the problem is your right there. Like the democratic party there are various strands and wings to them. Fine, if you do not agree but this 'they are all bat **** crazy' line we hear from social media outlets in Ireland is just nonsense really. Much of it is the echo chamber effect, which does a lot of harm to the debate on both sides.

Also the GOP is not the exclusive realm of 'white' people.



So many inaccuracies here but tbh I think you are a perfect example of someone who gets their news solely from one source/outlet and with the echo chamber effect, reinforces already held negative views against a political group or party. There in lies the problem of US politics and tbh world politics where the choice is binary.

Like by all means get your 'news' from Reddit but I certainly wouldn't take anything you regurgitate from there seriously.



I do not know, but how about asking them. Have you traveled to the US? Have you ever worked with an American who has by Irish standards conservative views? I was very like you when I was say 20-21. Yea, the GOP are 'evil', Americans are thick, etc.etc.etc... However, a trip to the States blew these stupid teenage misconceptions away when I actually had mature adult conversations with Americans who are quite intelligent, kind and hard working.

I also take issue with Chomsky who is very willing to talk down the West, the US and anyone else he thinks is remotely to the right, while he gives Russia a free pass and thought the Khmer Rouge were great lads altogether and publicly went about denying the scale and magnitude of the Genocide perpetrated by that regime.

Nail on the head right there.

It's only by spending some time there that your realize the people who support the GOP, or at least are not Obama cheerleaders, are far more intelligent and dare I say it 'normal' than many this side of the water are willing to give them credit for.

The one thing that really pisses me off when it come to US politics coverage this side of the water is how the media outlets are so so biased towards the Democrat point of view and so unwilling to countenance that normal everyday Americans see a lot of merit in the GOP.

InTheTrees

Zascar wrote: »

I do have a large bunch of American friends in work (American company) and I've asked them all. They are all democrats - they basically said that the reason I don't know any Republicans is because 'they rarely leave the country'. "Republicans are a small bunch of Rich white guys - and millions of brainwashed idiots from middle America" - is what the last person said to me. Now clearly I'm taking that with a pinch of Salt and wondering what the real answer is hence this post.

I think thats a pretty accurate description of your average demorats view of republicans.

jank

Zascar wrote: »

So yes as I said I'm no expert in this and do get my news from specific sources which are clearly one sided, but I fail to see any of the other side of things - apart from Fox news which no one takes seriously.

There lies the problem me thinks.

Say for example, today I read Paul Krugman's article in the New York Times - read it, it's hard to argue with his points.

I could argue with many of his points, particularly this.

No doubt I, like anyone who points out ethical lapses on the part of some companies, will be accused of demonizing business. But I’m not claiming that all businesspeople are demons, just that some of them aren’t angels.

There are, it turns out, people in the corporate world who will do whatever it takes, including fraud that kills people, in order to make a buck. And we need effective regulation to police that kind of bad behavior, not least so that ethical businesspeople aren’t at a disadvantage when competing with less scrupulous types. But we knew that, right?

a) He wrongly assumes that only the corporate world attracts a few bad apples. Should we ditch democracy because of some corrupt politicians?

b) He then assumes that 'better' regulation will make above problem go away. But does not define what 'better' is.

c) Does not recognise at all that the source of these problems often lie in the regulation of particular markets e.g. the FDA involvement in licensing Daraprim exclusively to one manufacturer.

d) Basically a business person cannot be trusted so must be policed while these regulator and legislators are free from moral corruption, benevolent, altruistic and will 'police' a market for the betterment of all!

In summary, yes one can argue that the basic premise of Krugman is indeed back to front.

Jeb and the other Republicans constantly spout utter rubbish that is proved wrong by www.politifact.com constantly. But the Republicans don't seem to care about the truth or facts, it doesn't seem to bother them - they are going more and more fundamentalist - just look at what's happening now with Boehner resigning...

You mention Jeb Bush for example, well according to politifact his 'True' to 'Pants on fire' score is 21% vs 3%/
Obama's score in this regard is 21% vs 2%
A negabile difference it must be said but it is interesting you singled out Jeb Bush 'spouting rubbish' yet never compare him to the sitting president. The eye sees what the eye wants.

The Democrats are not the upholders of truth, morality and virtue.

I do have a large bunch of American friends in work (American company) and I've asked them all. They are all democrats - they basically said that the reason I don't know any Republicans is because 'they rarely leave the country'. "Republicans are a small bunch of Rich white guys - and millions of brainwashed idiots from middle America" - is what the last person said to me. Now clearly I'm taking that with a pinch of Salt and wondering what the real answer is hence this post.

Again, there in lies the problem. If you hang around with people with the same political leanings, then asking them about the GOP is not going to reveal much success.

Also, if they are that small then why do they control Congress. The GOP do enjoy widespread support in the US. Looking at media in Ireland its hard to know that. Again, which feeds into a negative feedback loop about everything GOP.

Brian?

I've lived in the USA and am friends withe several registered Republicans. I know many more then I'm friends with. The vote republican in spite of the crazies we hear about, not because of them. They also display alarming ignorance about the world, but I don't know if that has anything to do with their voting preference.

The majority of republican voters are not far right Christians or libertarians or ignorant red necks. They're simple working people who've been bamboozled into believing the GOP has their best interests at heart. Neither political party in the US has their best interest at heart really, but I'd give a slight edge to the Dems as they need the Unions.

Zillah

I think it's mostly derived from fear. That's the nature of conservative thinking: you spend more on the military because you fear foreign enemies; you demand smaller, weaker government because you fear despotism; you fear crime so you want a gun; you favour policies that discriminate against people who are different - gay, muslim, atheist, foreign, whatever - because their difference is threatening. It's easy to find the unknown threatening, and the less well-traveled you are, and the less well-educated you are, the more you will find threatening - hence conservative voting.

The real problem is that politicians shamelessly manipulate and perpetuate those fears to get into power.

Conservative policies are about giving a short term feeling that the thing that scares me is being dealt with, rather than actually solving the problem. You fear loss of wealth so you demand lower taxes - instead of understanding that trickle down economics don't work. You fear foreign enemies so you want to bomb them - instead of realising that you just make more enemies, with more power and more support, by doing so. You feel safer from criminals with a gun, even though more guns makes the world more dangerous. It's all about short-term thinking.

It's also why these conversation have such animosity, because anyone opposing these policies must surely be in league who whoever it is that scares you: hence Obama being a socialist Muslim foreigner - why else would he have the policies that he has?

jank

Zillah wrote: »

I think it's mostly derived from fear. That's the nature of conservative thinking: you spend more on the military because you fear foreign enemies; you demand smaller, weaker government because you fear despotism; you fear crime so you want a gun; you favour policies that discriminate against people who are different - gay, muslim, atheist, foreign, whatever - because their difference is threatening. It's easy to find the unknown threatening, and the less well-traveled you are, and the less well-educated you are, the more you will find threatening - hence conservative voting.

The real problem is that politicians shamelessly manipulate and perpetuate those fears to get into power.

Conservative policies are about giving a short term feeling that the thing that scares me is being dealt with, rather than actually solving the problem. You fear loss of wealth so you demand lower taxes - instead of understanding that trickle down economics don't work. You fear foreign enemies so you want to bomb them - instead of realising that you just make more enemies, with more power and more support, by doing so. You feel safer from criminals with a gun, even though more guns makes the world more dangerous. It's all about short-term thinking.

It's also why these conversation have such animosity, because anyone opposing these policies must surely be in league who whoever it is that scares you: hence Obama being a socialist Muslim foreigner - why else would he have the policies that he has?

This fear works both ways. Ever hear on the 'War on Women' spouted by Democrats for example.

I do also find it ironic that you speak about republicans spouting fear when they are arguably more aspirational then the democrats, Ronald Reagan being a prime example of this, "The shining city on a hill" speech.

There is plenty of fear displayed here towards the GOP/Republicans, sure they are all bat $hit crazy hicks that want to blow up the world and bring us back to the dark ages with their religion and Dickinson labour laws.

Fear is a powerful political tool no doubt but look at the whole picture as many seem to be falling for it hook line and sinker

20Cent

jank wrote: »

This fear works both ways. Ever hear on the 'War on Women' spouted by Democrats for example.

The Republicans want to defund planned parenthood one of the biggest providers of women's healthcare in the country particularly the poor. They are accusing them of harvesting babies body parts for sale!! They are against any legislation for equal pay for women. They want to ban abortion even in the case of rape. A prominent republican Todd Aiken said that women couldn't get pregnant from "legitimate" rape. Certainly more real than the "war on Christmas".

Permabear

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Permabear

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InTheTrees

Permabear wrote: »

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Planned Parenthood are seen by Republicans as the principal supplier of abortions. They are also the principal supplier of healthcare to low income women.

Planned Parenthood has been under concerted attack by the Republicans for many years. At least since Ronald Reagans time. These faked videos are just the latest fake outrage by the right wingers.

:mad:

InTheTrees

jank wrote: »

This fear works both ways. Ever hear on the 'War on Women' spouted by Democrats for example.

Its funny you bring that up the day after the Republicans really embarrassed themselves in the congressional hearings in their attempt to defubd womens healthcare via Planned Parenthood.

:cool:

Permabear

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20Cent

Permabear wrote: »

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Sorry the allegations are clear. Prominent republicans making them. Even the claim you make that the criticism is over the selling of tissue from aborted fetuses has been proven false by numerous investigations. Still the republicans go on about it and want to defund a service that provides sexual healthcare to millions of women.

Carly Fiorina at the republican debate.
“Watch a fully-formed fetus on the table, its heart beating, its legs kicking, while someone says, ‘We have to keep it alive to harvest its brain.’ This is about the character of our nation, and if we do not stand up and force President Obama to veto this bill, shame on us.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07f9XwOnr-8

Ted Cruz:
SEN. TED CRUZ, R-TEXAS, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Sean, you're exactly right. This video and the one from last week are both gruesome. They show senior officials at Planned Parenthood callously, heartlessly bargaining and bartering to sell the body parts of unborn children.
They're sipping wine. They're laughing about it. This one official you just showed said she wants to sell so many body parts of unborn children, she buy her own Lamborghini!
Video:
http://www.foxnews.com/transcript/2015/07/22/ted-cruz-need-to-prosecute-planned-parenthood/

Jeb Bush
"It just troubles me that you would sell body parts. It just makes no sense to me," he said Wednesday during a stop at the Carolina Pregnancy Center in Spartanburg, South Carolina.
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/22/politics/jeb-bush-planned-parenthood-pope/

Dr. Ben Carson from his facebook page:
What we learned today is the body part harvesting at Planned Parenthood is simply barbaric. It must stop and Congress must stand up.

Chris Christie:
Gov. Chris Christie of New Jersey said that Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton “believes in the systematic murder of children in the womb to preserve their body parts … in a way that maximizes their value for sale for profit.”
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/melanie-hunter/chris-christie-hillary-clinton-believes-systematic-murder-children-womb

Mike Huckabee
How can we claim to be superior to nations who commit genocide when we commit infanticide? Destroying innocent life and harvesting human organs is beyond barbaric -- it is unimaginably immoral, grotesque, and evil.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/07/23/battle-goes-beyond-planned-parenthood-must-end-abortion-in-america0.html

Permabear wrote: »

As it happens, a number of Republican senators (including Deb Fischer and Lisa Murkowski) lent support on social media to the principle of equal pay for equal work. They voted against the Paycheck Fairness Act of 2014 only after Democrats refused to consider their proposed amendments to the bill.

Yeah like I said they voted against equal pay for women.

A Primal Nut

A couple of points from someone who kind of supports understands the appeal but I wouldn't be a Republican supporter in general.

1) Most of them aren't necessarily against a lot of things like minimum wage, government sponsorerd health care, etc but they want it to be judged at the state level, as they think a one-size fits all approach doesn't work.

2) Many of them are conservative Christians and in that case it makes sense to vote for the party that most represenents that mindset. Being an atheist myself I don't like this, but it's not a problem solely with Conservative Christians. Muslim countries in Turkey, Egypt, etc who have had democratic elections always vote for Conservative Islamic parties, all of which are much more extreme than the US Republican party, but for whatever reason liberals will always defend conservative Muslims but not conservative Christians. Catholic voters throughout Latin America and the Philippines consistently vote for Conservative Catholic parties. Same with Hindus in India. I find it difficult to understand religion in general so it's difficult for me to understand this also but the idea that conservative republicans are unique in the world is not true. White protestant Christians are as much entitled to vote by their religious beliefs as Catholics, Hindus and Muslims. If you think gay marriage is a reasonable reflection of how secular a country is most democratic governments around the world are still against it.

3) They do tend to say a lot of stupid things which of course the media love to focus on, but voters find that a refreshing alternative to the overly polished Democrats. Admittedly it's difficult to find a decent media source that will ever say something positive about the Republicans - as you mentioned Fox News is way too sensationalist. The WSJ is probably better.

4) They take pride in providing for and protecting their family themselves. It's the Esteem or Self-Actualisation part of Masow's hierarchy of needs and it's what has driven humans throughout history; indeed it's one of the reason innovation flourishes there but of course it's a mentality European liberals will never understand.

5) Ultimately they think the Republican party is better for the economy. The fact is that for many voters, especially small business owners, will benefit from a Republican president.

InTheTrees

A Primal Nut wrote: »

2) Many of them are conservative Christians and in that case it makes sense to vote for the party that most represenents that mindset. Being an atheist myself I don't like this, but it's not a problem solely with Conservative Christians. Muslim countries in Turkey, Egypt, etc who have had democratic elections always vote for Conservative Islamic parties, all of which are much more extreme than the US Republican party, but for whatever reason liberals will always defend conservative Muslims but not conservative Christians. Catholic voters throughout Latin America and the Philippines consistently vote for Conservative Catholic parties. Same with Hindus in India. I find it difficult to understand religion in general so it's difficult for me to understand this also but the idea that conservative republicans are unique in the world is not true. White protestant Christians are as much entitled to vote by their religious beliefs as Catholics, Hindus and Muslims. If you think gay marriage is a reasonable reflection of how secular a country is most democratic governments around the world are still against it.

Yes. Its true enough that right wing religious extremists aren't confined to the Republican Party in the USA but can be found in other countries too.

:eek:

InTheTrees

Permabear wrote: »

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Ireland is not the US.

Planned Parenthood provides healthcare to men and women in the USA.

Republicans are attempting to defund Planned Parenthood.

A Primal Nut

InTheTrees wrote: »

Yes. Its true enough that right wing religious extremists aren't confined to the Republican Party in the USA but can be found in other countries too.

:eek:

What I mean is that this has been the majority human instinct as long as politics has existed and in that sense, secular governments are an exception rather than the rule unfortunately, as much with democracies as non-democracies. There is nothing unusual or extreme about Republican voters when looked at in a global or historical context. But for whatever reason they are generally singled out as "evil" or "bad".

Permabear

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