Walking groups and cars

Gasherbraun

I was on the Military road close to Carrigshouk yesterday just before a very large walking group (I would guess 40-50) set off on a route. Every parking area between the Coillte track down through Carrigeenduff and up to the small space for two cars opposite the Oasis was taken by approx 25-30 vehicles that all appeared to belong to this group.

I think it is great that people get out into the hills but surely in this day and age people should understand that the right way to do this is in shared transport (not 1 or 2 per car as these appeared to be) or for these kind of numbers a coach that drops and collects?

I know there are always a few cars here but in these numbers, particularly on this beautiful stretch of road, it looks awful not to mention prevents anyone else from parking here. There are obvious environmental reasons for limiting vehicles in the area too.

Monday rant over....

PS I do know that the vast majority of groups are sensible in this regard.

Alun

Tell me about it ... my admittedly much smaller walking group always car pool as much as possible, especially if we're going to an area where there's limited parking such as the above.

I'd be pretty sure, given those numbers, and based on previous experiences, that they'd be one of two well known big Dublin based walking clubs. I've even seen them completely fill the Glenmacnass car park in the space of 10-15 minutes all with single driver cars.

hmmm

I know the group you're talking about at Oasis (Wayfarers) - they do have a carpool in Dublin, and the numbers yesterday would have been closer to 60 people over 3 hikes. Because they're one of the younger (relatively..) and more active clubs they have had a big influx of new people taking up hiking over the past few years, and certainly the committee running that club are aware that the numbers have become an issue. Running a bus isn't easy as it is hard to predict numbers in advance - the beautiful weather yesterday meant a big turnout, whereas bad weather would have meant far fewer.

Alun

hmmm wrote: »

I know the group you're talking about at Oasis (Wayfarers) - they do have a carpool in Dublin, and the numbers yesterday would have been closer to 60 people over 3 hikes. Because they're one of the younger (relatively..) and more active clubs they have had a big influx of new people taking up hiking over the past few years, and certainly the committee running that club are aware that the numbers have become an issue. Running a bus isn't easy as it is hard to predict numbers in advance - the beautiful weather yesterday meant a big turnout, whereas bad weather would have meant far fewer.

A big problem with the Wayfarers seems to be that they start all their walks, i.e. all 3 levels, at the same place which certainly doesn't help. If they were to split them over different starting points it wouldn't be so bad.

hmmm

Alun wrote: »

A big problem with the Wayfarers seems to be that they start all their walks, i.e. all 3 levels, at the same place which certainly doesn't help. If they were to split them over different starting points it wouldn't be so bad.

I agree, although I think nearly all clubs use a single start point - it makes car pooling and hike planning easier. It's not a problem when there's 20 people and 2 hikes, but when the groups get larger it needs to be looked at (and I know the Wayf are). I know it's a pain when you arrive at the same place a big club are starting from.

It's hard to balance the desire to encourage new people who want to take up hiking (and join a club to do so), versus trying to keep the numbers manageable. A couple of clubs put a cap on membership, but personally I don't think that's good for either the club or for encouraging hiking in general.

Alun

hmmm wrote: »

I agree, although I think nearly all clubs use a single start point - it makes car pooling and hike planning easier.

I'm not sure it does, and our club does the exact opposite.

For a start, devising three circular walks of differing lengths all starting from the exact same starting point is never going to be easy, and even if possible, not always 'optimal' for all concerned. I used to do this for our university hiking club many moons ago and it was a PITA to be honest.

I know someone who is a leader for the Wayfarers and she says that she struggles sometimes with this and would much rather start from somewhere else but isn't allowed to. Also people on different level walks are going to arrive back at the cars at different times, so I can't see there's a real car pooling advantage there.

hmmm

Alun wrote: »

Also people on different level walks are going to arrive back at the cars at different times, so I can't see there's a real car pooling advantage there.

The car pool advantage is that if there is a mismatch in the number of people car pooling versus the numbers of cars for their hike grade, they can take a lift to the start with a different grade car, join their hike and get a lift as far as the pub afterwards - then get picked up on the way home. A hike co-ordinator will try to get all the hikes to arrive back at roughly the same time (within reason). The alternative is to have some drivers traversing the countryside dropping people off at different start points.

All the bigger clubs I know (with the exception of the hillwalkers who admirably use a bus) use a single start point, including two other clubs whose car pooling leaves an awful lot to be desired.

Gasherbraun

hmmm wrote: »

I agree, although I think nearly all clubs use a single start point - it makes car pooling and hike planning easier. It's not a problem when there's 20 people and 2 hikes, but when the groups get larger it needs to be looked at (and I know the Wayf are). I know it's a pain when you arrive at the same place a big club are starting from.

It's hard to balance the desire to encourage new people who want to take up hiking (and join a club to do so), versus trying to keep the numbers manageable. A couple of clubs put a cap on membership, but personally I don't think that's good for either the club or for encouraging hiking in general.

You make some good points and to be honest I do not know what the answers are although I do agree with Alun that large groups offering various levels of hike need to consider organising different routes / starting points. I know the Bogtrotters organise hikes this way but admittedly they have a capped membership.

I have seen the numbers of people who use upland Wicklow for recreation grow so much over the last few years and there is really no 'infrastructure' in terms of parking or public transport to support those increases. Parking should not be increased since this is detrimental to the natural amenity of the mountains so that leaves the option of transport being improved and for that to work you need enough regular usage to make it viable for services to operate. At present this probably just applies to some days in summer.

I do not know the economies of the bus / coach industry but assume there are not the numbers there to support it at present.

Obviously if walking groups grow in popularity and size then there are other issues that come into play such as the increased damage on the well trodden routes that groups often follow. Another reason for splitting and reducing groups.

I actually ended up in Glendalough on Sunday because I was after a photo there. The place was busy when I arrived and approaching parking meltdown when I left. I climbed the rough steep ground adjacent to the West butress (fun with circa 20kg of camera gear on the back) to a point above the climbers and am pleased to note that there was no-one there but me ;-) My point is there is still plenty of Wicklow that is wild and devoid of people once you leave the beaten track.....

hmmm

Gasherbraun wrote: »

Parking should not be increased since this is detrimental to the natural amenity of the mountains so that leaves the option of transport being improved.

If you look at the parking options at the moment, they are extremely limited. Most people drive into the mountains, and it's going to be very hard to organise any public transport service when people are coming from all sorts of directions.

In Crone, the car park closes at 4. It's almost completely useless for most hikers, and you end up with everyone parking on the road - similarly at the Hellfire. I'd hate to have to rely on a bus service if that's the attitude towards hikers.

The rest of the car parks are very limited in number, have no amenities and they have no security.

A few more simple car parks like the Shay Elliot would make a big difference for getting cars off of the road, and a CCTV or two wouldn't go amiss.

BarryD

hmmm wrote: »

If you look at the parking options at the moment, they are extremely limited. Most people drive into the mountains, and it's going to be very hard to organise any public transport service when people are coming from all sorts of directions.

In Crone, the car park closes at 4. It's almost completely useless for most hikers, and you end up with everyone parking on the road - similarly at the Hellfire. I'd hate to have to rely on a bus service if that's the attitude towards hikers.

The rest of the car parks are very limited in number, have no amenities and they have no security.

A few more simple car parks like the Shay Elliot would make a big difference for getting cars off of the road, and a CCTV or two wouldn't go amiss.

Suggest you contact Coillte Outdoors at Newtownmountkennedy with these observations. They are behind developments like Shay Elliot and other parking areas. It's a tricky one for Coillte as well, since quite a number of their car parks have been subject to dumping and other anti social behavior hence they have felt the need to close them permanently. This seems to be worse closer to Dublin.

What's really needed are better public transport options i.e. a rambler type bus service that runs regularly at weekends. But that means a commitment both from a bus operator and the public to use it.

Alun

BarryD wrote: »

Suggest you contact Coillte Outdoors at Newtownmountkennedy with these observations.

I have done, I got no reply. Even if they had the correct times on their website it would help. Currently it says 4pm in one place and 4.30pm in another, and did so throughout the summer as well IIRC despite the fact that it was open much later then. The only reliable way to find out appears to be to go there in person and look for the hand written signs.

What's really needed are better public transport options i.e. a rambler type bus service that runs regularly at weekends. But that means a commitment both from a bus operator and the public to use it.

Possibly, but the size and layout of the Wicklow Mts. would make it difficult to plan a useful route for such a shuttle I think. They have on in the Mournes which is quite useful, but they have the advantage of a more compact range and some pretty decent roads that circumnavigate the whole range. They also have proper car parks that can act as pick up / drop off points.

BarryD

Alun wrote: »

Possibly, but the size and layout of the Wicklow Mts. would make it difficult to plan a useful route for such a shuttle I think. They have on in the Mournes which is quite useful, but they have the advantage of a more compact range and some pretty decent roads that circumnavigate the whole range. They also have proper car parks that can act as pick up / drop off points.

It could be done if a bit of effort and money was spent by the various relevant authorities. A matter of identifying a number of hubs like Enniskerry, Roundwood, Laragh, Blessington, Crooksling, Ballyknockan, Donard etc - where people would drive to and park. And then identify a series of specific access points/ bus stops where people can be dropped off or picked up from. Such a service would need to have sufficient buses and run regularly.

Alun

BarryD wrote: »

It could be done if a bit of effort and money was spent by the various relevant authorities. A matter of identifying a number of hubs like Enniskerry, Roundwood, Laragh, Blessington, Crooksling, Ballyknockan, Donard etc - where people would drive to and park. And then identify a series of specific access points/ bus stops where people can be dropped off or picked up from. Such a service would need to have sufficient buses and run regularly.

Exactly, you'd need a fair number of routes, not just the one circular one, and that alone would make it cost prohibitive I imagine.

BarryD

I guess that depends on what value people a) place on the environment and b) the prospect of a safe place to leave their motor. If such a series of services ran only at weekends, I reckon people would start planning their routes around it. A 'problem' might be that buses would likely be smaller and not suit large groups but that might be no bad thing either and would encourage the splitting up of these into smaller numbers per group?

Edited to add: I think the time will come for such an idea. Dublin's population is not getting smaller. The hills are right on the doorstep. Motoring costs and other factors are likely to rise. So just a matter of time imvho.