Winter Miles, Summer Smiles

Kurt_Godel

Time to start the journey towards 2016 races. I sat down with El Coachio and went through goals for next year, and what to do to make them happen. I want to get faster in the water, but realistically becoming more efficient at the same speed will be more productive, if I can target bigger gains on the bike and run. The long spins are something I avoid as a time sink from family, but they will have to be fitted in somewhere, so either long turbos in the office, or spins when the kids are at swimming classes. My running will make big gains if I keep the weight down (currently 86kg) and stay injury free. S&C will play a big part here, it has to become more regular.

Goals for 2016 are Lough Cutra Oly as an early season target, with Caroline Kearney as the later A goal. In between, Carlow, Wicklow, and HOTW look appealing. Competition and performance are important, but fun while doing so is the name of the game. I get an awful lot out of Tri, it informs and helps structure other aspects of my daily life, and most important keeps me off the golf course when my job is every more hastening towards the Pringle sweater and slacks

The log title is a mantra from one of the girls who used swim with us in Arklow, something she always used say when we were hanging on the bank gasping air halfway down a killer set. Foundation for a good summer starts now. I have two weeks easy/unstructured but no harm in logging it all from this point, if only to add to the general brain sweepings that make these logs fun to read.

Kurt_Godel

Mon 28th Sept Masters Swim

100m easy
6x100 free (25k25d50s) 15s
6x75 free pull buoy 15s
6x50 free 20m Max 30m easy
Main set
6x200 free on 3:20 (hold 2:48-2:52)
200m easy

Saturday's bike spill is hitting me now, aches and pains in shoulder and arm muscles. While the swim helped a bit, I didn't feel 100% for the 200's and so sat out the third (I've been told not to push too hard, I should be going easier these couple of weeks). So the 200's were in 2:50-2:59, not brilliant times but I worked on my stroke during them rather than powering them.

joey100

Good to see your still logging Kurt. Just a quick question about your swimming though, I've been looking at your sessions for a while and some of the times you can hit I would love to be able to hit, sub 3 min 200's and sub 6 min 400's. How do you feel this transfers out to open water? Mainly asking because I can't hit those times but was on your feet in CK and out just before you in Dublin, are the sessions transferring well to open water swimming? I was probably a little bit slower in the pool this year than last but my open water times were on average a min faster over Olympic distance, must be down to the coach!

Kurt_Godel

The biggest difference I've made to my tri swimming this year has been to consciously slow the effort during races. So my times are down somewhat but I'm exiting a lot more refreshed, and this has transferred into better bikes and runs (and faster overall times). For next year I'd like to bring down the swim time (for similar effort), but bike/run gains are the main focus.

To answer your question, how do sub 3 min 200's and sub 6 min 400's transfer out to open water?* Gains in these pool times will be made with improving technique over the winter, and that improved technique should manifest itself in OW racing. Whether it manifests itself in faster times without much extra effort, or similar times with a refreshed entry to T1, I don't mind.

*I'd suspect some would say improved form is more important per se than sub 3 min 200's and sub 6 min 400's.

Kurt_Godel

Races for next year below. Want to travel less, and what will be will be regarding swim cancellations or others drafting.

16/04/2016 North Tipp Sprint Sprint Nenagh Tipperary (Pool tri)
22/05/2016 Tri 795 Carlow Sprint Carlow Carlow (nearby)
29/05/2016 Lough Cutra Standard Galway (Early season A race)
25/06/2016 Hell of the West Standard Kilkee Clare National Champs ???
10/07/2016 Wicklow Town Black Castle Standard Wicklow Town Wicklow (nearby)
16/07/2016 Two Proviences Sprint Lanesboro Longford National Champs ???(More likely than not)
13/08/2016 Caroline Kearney Standard Mullingar Westmeath (A race)
20/08/2016 Tri the Hook Sprint Fethard on Sea Wexford ???(Maybe, it is close but sh1t organization)
28/08/2016 Vodafone Dublin City Triathlon Standard Phoenix Park Dublin ???(More likely than not)
17/09/2016 Pulse Port Beach Triathlon Sprint Clogherhead Louth

shotgunmcos

Good to see a new log KG.

Your swim times have improved a lot. How did the pool times stack up against your tri swims this year? Is there much of a difference between SC and LC pool times?

I'd agree with form over times. Exiting with more juice etc...

Its mad that I went down to the pool yesterday morning after months out, hopped into the middle lane and was expected to lead it. When I dropped back, they literally waited for me to kick off first. I healdfast and let them off. I got many bizarre looks when I said it was because I was unfit and want to improve stroke form first :cool:

RJM85

Jaysus, someone's eager! I'm starting to feel guilty!

MojoMaker

"Winter smiles", and it still the end of the summer and the 2015 season not over yet.

What else are you throwing in the mix Kurt? Some of the blue riband OW swim races I assume, maybe even a few prominent 10K road races?

How much gain are you targeting in the pool - i.e. sub 5:30 400?

Do you hope to crack sub-40 10K next year?

Giving me some food for thought myself now

Kurt_Godel

MojoMaker wrote: »

"Winter smiles", and it still the end of the summer and the 2015 season not over yet.

What else are you throwing in the mix Kurt? Some of the blue riband OW swim races I assume, maybe even a few prominent 10K road races?

How much gain are you targeting in the pool - i.e. sub 5:30 400?

Do you hope to crack sub-40 10K next year?

Giving me some food for thought myself now

Eager to look forward I guess, I like racing and won't be able to atone for last weekends truncation for a good while... I'm sure that enthusiasm will quieten down soon enough

Maybe some OW races buts its hard to fit it all in.

Yes the target is 5:30 400TT but if I don't get it I'll be happy with better form. The real improvement targets are for the bike and run.

Sub-40 10k this December at the Aware 10k

Glad you are looking ahead too... get that 400m time down!

joey100

I'm going to predict you will need to go comfortably below Sub 40 for the 10km to win that bet!

Kurt_Godel

joey100 wrote: »

I'm going to predict you will need to go comfortably below Sub 40 for the 10km to win that bet!

Yes sub 39 needed.

I met him at the weekend and was a bit surprised at how much weight he's shed since I last saw him... still, he was hungover so there's always hope

Kurt_Godel

Tue 16k easy run 1:18

Kids were at swimming so I took off for a jog along the coast road. Everything the next couple of weeks has to be easy, only one session a day, and unstructured. I had the garmin but figured I would only look at it while it beeped, and took off at an easy pace which I figured to be 5:30min/km... checked at the beep, it was a 4:47. From there I slowed, but to be honest it felt difficult and unnatural keeping the pace under 5min/km. Not sure if this is because I'm still primed for a race that never happened, or whatever, but this was a very enjoyable very easy trot along the coast road and back. 4:55 average pace.

MojoMaker

If 4:55 is your easy pace what's your marathon pace kurt?

I know what you mean though, sometimes it's really hard to run at an easy pace, it's different mechanics in some ways.

Kurt_Godel

MojoMaker wrote: »

If 4:55 is your easy pace what's your marathon pace kurt?

I know what you mean though, sometimes it's really hard to run at an easy pace, it's different mechanics in some ways.

It's been a good few years since I ran a marathon but MP would have been 4:15-4:30 (never broke 3 hours).

In general I run by feel (that may have to change and HR numbers needed), and 4:55 pace over 16k yesterday felt easy. I guess the previous week was a taper week of sorts and then I didn't get to race. Some days >5:30 pace is easy pace.

Agree with you on the mechanics, there is nothing I dislike more than artificially slowing your stride. I once paced a 5-hour marathon. It was horrible to "run" like that, very difficult cadence and body posture, it felt alien. I quit after halfway.

Kurt_Godel

Fri 10.16k @ 4:36 av pace

Railway walk with Mick, a great day for a trot. Conversation pace the way around. Enjoyed this run, even though I had to fend off Rotterdam woo'ings. You can exact revenge for both of us there Mick

Kurt_Godel

Sat Hilly spin 1:43 42k

Met up with Kirk as our kids were at the pool, and went out for an easy spin on one of his routes. Nothing planned except be back for the kids within 2 hours. The spin was a great lesson for me, as Kirk is a much better biker than I, and is active with the local bike club. He showed me how to take hills, and how to spin easy, all setting up nicely for a final 15mins big gear up and overs. The riding before the BG was easy, I was surprised to see how much elevation we had put in. The up and overs were along the old N11, no traffic, great surface, into a headwind. Turning with smooth constant rotation, keeping the power high. Towards the end he dropped me and I had to put in big effort to get him back- far better economy to keep the effort constant. A very useful spin.

Kurt_Godel

Mon 6k easy run 30 mins; Masters swim

The run was weird, my legs and body felt great, but something was amiss. I rarely eat takeaway but had a chinese while watching the rugger yesterday, and am probably awash with salt at this stage. Didn't sleep well either. But a good run in an autumnal setting.

Swim:
200m warm up
10*50 as (25k, 25drill, 15s)
Main set- 90% effort based on 100m pb
5*150 on 2:30 (in 2:10-2:25)
5*100 on 1:40 (in 1:22-1:29)
5*50 on 60 (in 38-41)
100m easy
300m hypoxic

This was a decent set- what I'm happiest about is that it wasn't eyeballs out. Sure, it was tough and it hurt, but I kept the stroke together and finished each set with the second fastest rep. Getting instant stroke feedback from the coach on the deck is fantastic.

interested

arguably why some fast pool swimmers never see translation to OW ... but worth a read imho

http://www.hellefrederiksen.com/distance-per-stroke-effective/

The catch phase is critical
Pull band work is one of / if not the most effective drill work to be done

tunney

interested wrote: »

arguably why some fast pool swimmers never see translation to OW ... but worth a read imho

http://www.hellefrederiksen.com/distance-per-stroke-effective/

The catch phase is critical
Pull band work is one of / if not the most effective drill work to be done

Thorpe is often held up as the poster boy for DPS as a result of his slight pause in the catch. he himself sees this slight pause as a disfunction in his stroke that should be resolved.

Look at Any Potts in Kona at the weekend. One of the first out of the water with a horrible looking ballistic recovery stroke - it works though.

Part of my objection to most masters sessions is the "this is the right way to swim" attitude. It doesn't translate. Alot easier if people tune out, don't think, and just do what they are told.

I love B+B sets, most of my set yesterday was B+B, find it wonderful for the catch and oddly my rotation.

interested

tunney wrote: »

Thorpe is often held up as the poster boy for DPS as a result of his slight pause in the catch. he himself sees this slight pause as a disfunction in his stroke that should be resolved.

Look at Any Potts in Kona at the weekend. One of the first out of the water with a horrible looking ballistic recovery stroke - it works though.

Part of my objection to most masters sessions is the "this is the right way to swim" attitude. It doesn't translate. Alot easier if people tune out, don't think, and just do what they are told.

I love B+B sets, most of my set yesterday was B+B, find it wonderful for the catch and oddly my rotation.

From the article

'Teaching amateurs and non-natural swimmers to apply a long DPS style brings more dead spots in the stroke than not.'

Those dead spots (imho) combined with a not so strong leg kick are the big reasons why some triathletes struggle to swim fast in some OW races. Based on looking at someones stroke I can sometimes see these and recommend those swimmers focus on lake swims or calm rivers - in open water swims like Kilkee those dead spots cost more because the external environmental factors have more influence (wind, tide/current, chop).

Band with a buoy, progressing to band work without a buoy is great for 'encouraging' both a effective catch and good strong core. I would say its just as important to 'finish' each stroke to the hip on each pull and be wary of snatching and not catching the water - without a pause

As before, great insight and I really like the summary table of why 'swimming' and 'open water' swimming differ.


Many thanks for the use of your blog Paul

Kurt_Godel

^appreciate the input, always happy to talk swimming:)

Last night stroke feedback was to lengthen my stroke, to find the slight glide.

Tunney (and interested?) I presume this would be one of your objections to masters/pool swimming, in that its the opposite to a typically higher turnover Tri stroke?

What I find is if I introduce a slight glide/overreach, I get a better catch (in that my catch is typically bad anyway). A typical set last night had me fast the first rep, slowing the next two as I tired, and getting faster again (for less perceived effort) when I focussed on a longer stroke. Typically in Tri races a longer stroke focus in the second half of the swim means a better second half.

Again in the spirit of swim chatter... I don't get the point HF is trying to make. Sure, a higher cadence will be needed in whitecap swimming versus pool, but in general what works is what works to make you faster. A good catch isn't necessitated from higher turnover; if a longer stroke gets you a better catch (and better streamline) then that works for all her bulletpoints. In particular, "Efficiency comes from being fluid in the water, irrelevant of stroke rate."

interested

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

Last night stroke feedback was to lengthen my stroke, to find the slight glide.

Tunney (and interested?) I presume this would be one of your objections to masters/pool swimming, in that its the opposite to a typically higher turnover Tri stroke?

In a word: Yep!
The masters swimming club / coach is gearing swimmers to race in pools and galas, they're coaching a group.
This was the reason I posted this article on your blog btw


Also adult swimmers (even kids) take everything very literally - the glide or pause instruction by a coach is for a reason - the reason being is that your not 'slipping' water at the start of the power/pull phase and you've a grip with the palm of your hand / or hold of the water before you pull yourself through on the stroke.
Unfortunately for lots of swimmers the exaggeration / instruction sticks and they pause ... almost 'catchup' like fashion which might look pretty, but leads to the dead spots ... unless you've a 6 beat kick ... and even with this 'pausing' or exaggerated / elongated glide will be an issue in the pool .. but again, imho, plays a big part of good pool swimmers not seeing similar speeds / results in the open water.


So ... swim as a triathlete and not a swimmer understand that DPS and Stroke count dictate the speed we move through the water, understand that moving through the water in a pool and the open water are very different ... train appropriately for what you want to excel in.

griffin100

You've probably seen this video as I have posted it before but it's interesting:

http://marathonswimmers.org/blog/2013/06/dave-scott-open-water-technique/

tunney

interested wrote: »

From the article

'Teaching amateurs and non-natural swimmers to apply a long DPS style brings more dead spots in the stroke than not.'

Those dead spots (imho) combined with a not so strong leg kick are the big reasons why some triathletes struggle to swim fast in some OW races. Based on looking at someones stroke I can sometimes see these .....

I wasn't referring to your masters sessions by the way

interested

tunney wrote: »

I wasn't referring to your masters sessions by the way

laughing out loud in a good way purely because I never thought of that !

Truthfully I always saw it / continue to see it a coached session for triathletes - as in there's no individual medley sets etc etc I also based the training around the triathlon season, last year we added a short block of 5 sessions to bring folks closer to key races and in those weeks would regularly do OW skills/drills in the pool (I know PK does the same to good effect at his Thursday morning sessions)...
and also its been a 3D session for a few years now, but open to all with a TI license.

Kurt_Godel

tunney wrote: »

Thorpe is often held up as the poster boy for DPS as a result of his slight pause in the catch. he himself sees this slight pause as a disfunction in his stroke that should be resolved.

This brings to mind the great Garrett Fitzgerald quote- “That’s fine in practice, but will it work in theory?”

zico10

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

What I find is if I introduce a slight glide/overreach, I get a better catch (in that my catch is typically bad anyway). A typical set last night had me fast the first rep, slowing the next two as I tired, and getting faster again (for less perceived effort) when I focussed on a longer stroke. Typically in Tri races a longer stroke focus in the second half of the swim means a better second half.

Interesting discussion happening and I don't mean to be fatuous, but why not focus on this the whole way through?

Kurt_Godel

zico10 wrote: »

Interesting discussion happening and I don't mean to be fatuous, but why not focus on this the whole way through?

Usual method in races up to mid-summer has been to power from the start (usually go out with the leaders for first 100-200m), try and grab feet, and power the rest of the way. Exiting quite tired.

Recently I've gone out hard 100m, then steadied and grabbed feet, start tiring mid-way, lengthen reach and that seems to work, I can maintain position and exit relatively fit for the bike.

Thats only started to work and I will try a longer reach all the way next race. I think the longer reach is giving a better catch, I can certainly "feel" the grab of water with a longer reach, in a way I couldn't before.

tunney

zico10 wrote: »

Interesting discussion happening and I don't mean to be fatuous, but why not focus on this the whole way through?

Do you need to work on focus in the first half? By that I mean your focus will naturally be there until you start to fatigue and then, at that point the real focus is required. My 2c but been 5 years since I last raced.

Kurt_Godel

Tue 50 min turbo

10 easy
5x(30sec build30sec easy)
5x(4 BG steady cad, 1 easy)
5x(15sec sprint, 45 easy)
5 easy

This was a slog, but not as hard as the numbers would suggest. 4 min BG were 285W, 66rpm
310, 70
309, 71
305, 71
309, 72

RJM85

tunney wrote: »

Do you need to work on focus in the first half? By that I mean your focus will naturally be there until you start to fatigue and then, at that point the real focus is required. My 2c but been 5 years since I last raced.

Focus will be there alright, but not necessarily on the right things in my experience. I'll often find that I've slipped into bad habits when I'm focussed on 'racing' when I actually need to take a step back, not panic and focus on my form. But again, that's just n=1.