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Couple with six children killed in Palestine

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    #572
    speedboatchase
    Registered Users Posts: 5,791 ✭✭✭speedboatchase


    No
    Nodin wrote: »
    Undirected rage and desperation tend to be like that.

    Uh oh, found a moral relativist. I subscribe to the controversial notion that stabbing a civilian is mean and wrong.


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    #573
    speedboatchase
    Registered Users Posts: 5,791 ✭✭✭speedboatchase


    No
    wes wrote: »
    Yes, on both sides:

    Israel violence: Israeli stabs Jewish man 'mistaken for Arab' at Ikea in Kiryat Ata

    Absolutely, in that case. I condemn that attack and the motives of the attacker completely.


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    #574
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    No
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    You're new to this Zionist PR lark then? Don't you know "call the anti-Zionists anti-Semites" line kinda ran out of steam about 1950?
    I always find it entertaining that the very first people in every thread about Israel to conflate Zionism and the Jewish race are Zionists, not the supposed anti-Semites then are ineptly trying to smear.

    I'm not jewish, i'm not israeli, i'm not religious in any form, and i certainly don't believe in a gods chosen land or some other nonsense, so this whole zionist label is is bit silly.


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    #575
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    speedboatchase wrote: »
    Uh oh, found a moral relativist. I subscribe to the controversial notion that stabbing a civilian is mean and wrong.

    If they are a civilian, yes, its rather more than "mean". However you don't seem to take on board that treating a population like second class citizens (as is the case in Arab East Jerusalem and the West Bank) is eventually going to produce angry, desperate and bitter people.


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    #576
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    I'm not jewish, i'm not israeli, i'm not religious in any form, and i certainly don't believe in a gods chosen land or some other nonsense, so this whole zionist label is is bit silly.

    Would you care to respond?
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=97362183&postcount=555


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    #577
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    I'm not jewish, i'm not israeli, i'm not religious in any form, and i certainly don't believe in a gods chosen land or some other nonsense, so this whole zionist label is is bit silly.

    Did you just delete a post that responded to a man being stabbed with the statement "o great, theres ikea in Israel"?


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    #578
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    No
    Nodin wrote: »
    If they are a civilian, yes, its rather more than "mean". However you don't seem to take on board that treating a population like second class citizens (as is the case in Arab East Jerusalem and the West Bank) is eventually going to produce angry, desperate and bitter people.
    Doesn't make a stabbing ok.

    Likewise a knacker throwing a brick throw my car window isn't excusable because he grew up in an underpriveledged neighbourhood.

    If a soldier shoots a child knowing its a child and unarmed, then thats inexcusable. If a palestinian stabs an israeli civilian, then its inexcusable.


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    #579
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    No
    Nodin wrote: »
    Did you just delete a post that responded to a man being stabbed with the statement "o great, theres ikea in Israel"?

    Yes, as it was a bit unsavoury on reflection.

    What do you gain by making comment on it?


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    #580
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    I'll admit nothing as i do not believe they are wrong on every side. They're not perfect either though.
    "mussie" hatred has nothing to do with it, and the inference of rascism is insulting, kindly stop.
    I am atheist, and i count among my friends a muslim (current partners ex-husband), christians, etc. Whatever brand of sky-wizard you adhere to, i could care less.

    Well the problem is that there are several high ranking individuals who control the military that believe Israel is a "holy land" and that a particular tribe are "God's chosen people". Now unless we cut out this BS then there's going to be all sorts of stupid bloody acts committed in the name of the sky wizard. I do care about people's beliefs when they happen to run one of the most powerful armies in the world.


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    #581
    speedboatchase
    Registered Users Posts: 5,791 ✭✭✭speedboatchase


    No
    Nodin wrote: »
    If they are a civilian, yes, its rather more than "mean". However you don't seem to take on board that treating a population like second class citizens (as is the case in Arab East Jerusalem and the West Bank) is eventually going to produce angry, desperate and bitter people.

    Even if you try rationalise these kind of indiscriminate attacks, the fact is that when either side has nothing but hatred for one another, where a Jew or Muslim is dehumanised by their attacker to the point that their life must be ended, we have to try find a solution or ask the international community to help bring rational leaders on both sides to the bargaining table.

    The path that is opening up right now, as any hope of peace dims every day, is for another offensive in Gaza. Hamas are encouraging a third intifada that will further ruin the lives of Palestinians and radicalise another generation. When either side is being encouraged to indiscriminately attack the other by their leaders, the worst thing the rest of us can do is try justify their actions, thus encouraging the hopeless cycle of violence that is currently playing out.


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    #582
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    Yes, as it was a bit unsavoury on reflection.

    What do you gain by making comment on it?

    That your attitude is less than impartial when it comes to violence. Doubtless had somebody made such a flippant remark re a Palestinian attacker and an Israeli victim, we'd hear rather a different tone.

    Would you care to get back to me on this post?
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=97362183&postcount=555


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    #583
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    speedboatchase wrote: »
    Even if you try rationalise these kind of indiscriminate attacks, the fact is that when either side has nothing but hatred for one another, where a Jew or Muslim is dehumanised by their attacker to the point that their life must be ended, we have to try find a solution or ask the international community to help bring rational leaders on both sides to the bargaining table..

    Israel is in the driving seat, has US protection and is not going to be convinced to stop as a result.
    speedboatchase wrote: »
    The path that is opening up right now, as any hope of peace dims every day, is for another offensive in Gaza. Hamas are encouraging a third intifada that will further ruin the lives of Palestinians and radicalise another generation. When either side is being encouraged to indiscriminately attack the other by their leaders, the worst thing the rest of us can do is try justify their actions, thus encouraging the hopeless cycle of violence that is currently playing out.

    These incidents are not occurring in Gaza, and any link to Hamas is tenous.

    What radicalises each generation is Israeli occupation and colonisation, not Hamas.


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    #584
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    No
    Nodin wrote: »
    That your attitude is less than impartial when it comes to violence. Doubtless had somebody made such a flippant remark re a Palestinian attacker and an Israeli victim, we'd hear rather a different tone.

    Would you care to get back to me on this post?
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=97362183&postcount=555

    You'd actually hear more or less the same. I don't like Ikea. Place is full of bargain basement crap (there are a few nice bits, but its mostly not.)

    Ok. I do not know what the sniper saw through his scope. I do not know how the youths were behaving.
    All of these deaths were in the course of doing something else, e.g: containing a protest, locating a rocket crew etc. They were caused in very different circumstances than the stabbing of the settler family who were stabbed by someone out to stab someone, anyone.
    I'm not saying that one side has to justify innocence while the other does not. What i am saying is that there is a difference between accidental death and indiscriminate death.


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    #585
    speedboatchase
    Registered Users Posts: 5,791 ✭✭✭speedboatchase


    No
    Nodin wrote: »
    Israel is in the driving seat, has US protection and is not going to be convinced to stop as a result.

    Israel always stops when international outcry reaches a certain volume. If they wanted to, they could flatten Palestinian territories tomorrow.
    Nodin wrote: »
    These incidents are not occurring in Gaza, and any link to Hamas is tenous.

    They're not happening in Gaza because no Jew would last a day in Gaza. I'm saying that the stabbing incidents are being openly encouraged by the likes of Hamas, who are obviously extremely influential and can only 'govern' through ensuring their population is always angry and therefore easier to control.
    Nodin wrote: »
    What radicalises each generation is Israeli occupation and colonisation, not Hamas.

    Hopelessness is a huge factor to radicalisation. As each generation has become more radicalised (yes, through Israel's actions in many cases) we've reached a point where I don't believe any Palestinian leader will ever make a deal for a two-state solution. Even if they wanted to, it would never be accepted by extremists within the population and they'd be pressured into walking away from such a deal.


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    #586
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    You'd actually hear more or less the same. I don't like Ikea. Place is full of bargain basement crap (there are a few nice bits, but its mostly not.)

    Ok. I do not know what the sniper saw through his scope. I do not know how the youths were behaving.
    All of these deaths were in the course of doing something else, e.g: containing a protest, locating a rocket crew etc. They were caused in very different circumstances than the stabbing of the settler family who were stabbed by someone out to stab someone, anyone.
    I'm not saying that one side has to justify innocence while the other does not. What i am saying is that there is a difference between accidental death and indiscriminate death.

    No, I think it would have been rather different.

    So you presume innocence on the part of the sniper, some guilt on the part of the children, despite their age and locations, but presume innocence on the part of the settlers and state - bizarrely - that they were the victim of an "indiscriminate" attack? Dear o dear.

    Cruel coin wrote:
    Then give me examples that don't just paint the profile of "ebil jew"..

    What post, remark or link provided led to that remark? Please be specific.


  • Options
    #587
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    speedboatchase wrote: »
    Israel always stops when international outcry reaches a certain volume. If they wanted to, they could flatten Palestinian territories tomorrow..

    Do they stop the checkpoints, raids, once a week or so killings, countless beatings, torture, arrest and imprisonment, acts of settler violence, land confiscation and settlement building and expansion stop? No, they plough on regardless.
    speedboatchase wrote: »
    They're not happening in Gaza because no Jew would last a day in Gaza. I'm saying that the stabbing incidents are being openly encouraged by the likes of Hamas, who are obviously extremely influential and can only 'govern' through ensuring their population is always angry and therefore easier to control..

    Fatah are the largest support Palestinian organisation. The population is angry because of the conditions in the OT, details of which I linked earlier in the thread.


  • Options
    #588
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    No
    Nodin wrote: »
    No, I think it would have been rather different.

    So you presume innocence on the part of the sniper, some guilt on the part of the children, despite their age and locations, but presume innocence on the part of the settlers and state - bizarrely - that they were the victim of an "indiscriminate" attack? Dear o dear.

    What post, remark or link provided led to that remark? Please be specific.

    You don't think the stabbing of that family was indiscriminate?

    Lets expand that: If a rocket is fired blindly towards civilian areas, do you think thats indiscriminate?
    If a missile is fired towards a suspected arms dump, is that indiscriminate?
    I think yes and no in that order.

    The combination of your provided links, all of which point to israeli consequence without bothering their hole to mention cause.


  • Options
    #589
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    The IDF who did the forcible ejections are military targets, but the dude who moves in and plonks his arse on a sofa is not. Since when are settlers military personel?

    By moving in and plonking their arse on a sofa, they are directly enabling the military colonisation of Palestinian land. And they know this full well when they choose to do it. You're not going to claim that any settler is ignorant of the face that their quarters come at the expense of some family who was kicked out?


  • Options
    #590
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    I'm not jewish, i'm not israeli, i'm not religious in any form, and i certainly don't believe in a gods chosen land or some other nonsense, so this whole zionist label is is bit silly.

    His first tactic is "attack the poster not the post", sometimes I think he doesn't even bother reading your post before replying. You'll get used to it.
    Nodin wrote: »
    Would you care to respond?
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=97362183&postcount=555

    Oh and this is Nodin's regular tactic, you'll get used to that too.


  • Options
    #591
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Nodin wrote: »
    Sorry, but where or when was "Jew" brought into it?

    The word "Jew" is almost always brought into these debates as a straw man, by pro-Zionists attempting to paint pro-Palestinians as racists.

    Let's be clear: Most of us have no problem with settlers because they're Jews. In fact, most of us have no problem with settlers because they're Israeli. Most of us have a problem with settlers because they're settlers.


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    #592
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    Likewise a knacker throwing a brick throw my car window isn't excusable because he grew up in an underpriveledged neighbourhood.

    What if he threw the brick at your car because it used to be his car, and you took it from him by force with the help of some well-armed thugs?


  • Options
    #593
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    The word "Jew" is almost always brought into these debates as a straw man, by pro-Zionists attempting to paint pro-Palestinians as racists.

    Let's be clear: Most of us have no problem with settlers because they're Jews. In fact, most of us have no problem with settlers because they're Israeli. Most of us have a problem with settlers because they're settlers.
    Precisely. If it was a band of Paddies decided they owned a few million acres of the middle east because some sky fairy said so and they set up a state with racist citizenship laws, they'd equally be land grabbing supremacist criminals.


  • Options
    #594
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    No
    BlaasForRafa wrote: »

    Oh and this is Nodin's regular tactic, you'll get used to that too.

    I noticed that. Tends to get a bit quote salady around here.


  • Options
    #595
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    I noticed that. Tends to get a bit quote salady around here.
    Says he quoting his new best mate's post.


  • Options
    #596
    Boom_Bap
    Moderators, Music Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,734 Mod ✭✭✭✭Boom_Bap


    MOD
    More on-topic discussion and less talking about each other. Thanks.


  • Options
    #597
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    No
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Says he quoting his new best mate's post.

    Sorry, i meant "link" salad.

    The whole "can you give a link for that" ruins discussion.


  • Options
    #598
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    No
    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    What if he threw the brick at your car because it used to be his car, and you took it from him by force with the help of some well-armed thugs?

    In this particular imaginary scenario, there is no car stolen, as the old car was crushed.


  • Options
    #599
    biko
    Registered Users Posts: 81,220 ✭✭✭✭biko


    No
    https://twitter.com/DanWilliams/status/653923381008535552
    Between news updates on Palestinian violence, Israel's @Channel2News airs tips on fending off a stabbing attack...


  • Options
    #600
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    No
    biko wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/DanWilliams/status/653923381008535552

    Why do they get that, and i don't get a "how to fend off copper thieves" slot? Not fair.

    (seriously though, terrible that its at that stage)


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    #601
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,893 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    speedboatchase wrote: »
    Even if you try rationalise these kind of indiscriminate attacks, the fact is that when either side has nothing but hatred for one another, where a Jew or Muslim is dehumanised by their attacker to the point that their life must be ended, we have to try find a solution or ask the international community to help bring rational leaders on both sides to the bargaining table.

    The path that is opening up right now, as any hope of peace dims every day, is for another offensive in Gaza. Hamas are encouraging a third intifada that will further ruin the lives of Palestinians and radicalise another generation. When either side is being encouraged to indiscriminately attack the other by their leaders, the worst thing the rest of us can do is try justify their actions, thus encouraging the hopeless cycle of violence that is currently playing out.

    Usually pro-Israeli guff that excuses their crimes. Your post has done nothing to look at what is going on. It's a roll your eyes to the sky job.

    "Isn't it terrible, they hate each other, sure what can you do".

    Why not look at the conditions that have created the current situation, i.e. the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians?

    If it wasn't so serious it'd be funny that posters here talk about Palestinians hating Israelis. Wtf do you expect after seventy years of Zionist terrorism?


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