How genetically different are the populations of North West Europe?

Eugene Norman

tac foley wrote: »

Of course not, simply pointing out that he is as 'real' as Cuchulain. Or Robin Hood.

I'm simply ignorant, not stupid. Ignorance can be replaced by knowledge, but stupidity is a whole lot harder to fix.

tac

But why would expect cuchulain to be fact?

There does seem to be some links between Irish DNA and the spainish. Which is what the Annals say.

Eugene Norman

@steddyeddy -- good post but the kingdom of Dal Riatha wasn't extensive enough to explain the similarities between the scots and Irish. And the scots ( Irish) never took over Scotland, they allied with the Picts to form the kingdom of Alba, to fight the Normans.

steddyeddy

Eugene Norman wrote: »

@steddyeddy -- good post but the kingdom of Dal Riatha wasn't extensive enough to explain the similarities between the scots and Irish. And the scots ( Irish) never took over Scotland, they allied with the Picts to form the kingdom of Alba, to fight the Normans.

Thanks Eugene. I'm not to up on the exact details but I'll keep looking for more correlations between gene drift (influx of new genes into a population). You might be able to tell me if they match oral or written traditions.

Ipso

steddyeddy wrote: »

Tac I hope you don't mind me saying but some of your posts here display more venom than curiosity.

Anyway there's genetic evidence backing up some of the invasions.

The genetic link to Spain mentioned there (must be a very old article if it's referring to haplogroup 1) has more to do with both regions sharing a similar male lineage than one population coming directly from the other.
Recent ancient DNA testing from steppe remains suggest this lineage arrived in Europe in the Bronze Age from the Eurasian steppe and mist likely spread with the Bell Beaker people.

steddyeddy

Ipso wrote: »

The genetic link to Spain mentioned there (must be a very old article if it's referring to haplogroup 1) has more to do with both regions sharing a similar male lineage than one population coming directly from the other.

Or both populations sharing a common ancestor. However I believe it morelikely that the Basque people settled first and some of their number brought haplogroup R1b into Ireland

Recent ancient DNA testing from steppe remains suggest this lineage arrived in Europe in the Bronze Age from the Eurasian steppe and mist likely spread with the Bell Beaker people.

Well another piece of evidence is animal genetics. In this case snails. The genotype of snails in Ireland matches that of snails in northern Spain and south France. The record for these snails goes back 9000 years This predates the Bell Beaker culture. Article below:

A genetic similarity between snail fossils found in Ireland and the Eastern Pyrenees suggests humans migrated from southern Europe to Ireland 8,000 years ago.
The slimy creatures in Ireland today are almost identical to snails in Southern France and Northern Spain.
Whether an accidental visitor on a ship or brought along as a snack, the boat they were carried on did not appear to stop in Britain.
The findings are published in PLOS One.
As Britain emerged from the end of the last Ice Age about 10,000 years ago, sea levels rose and landslides are thought to have triggered a great tsunami. Britain was transformed into an island, separated from mainland Europe and Ireland.

The intriguing implication is that the genetics of snails might shed light on a very old human migration eventDr Angus Davison, University of Nottingham

Land-dwelling animals were therefore no longer able to migrate from Europe over the seas without a little help.
It has long perplexed scientists that Ireland has plants and animals that are genetically different, and in some cases are even unique, to ones found in Britain.
Now scientists have found that a common garden snail, Cepaea nemoralis, is almost genetically identical to one found in the Eastern Pyrenees, but seems to have missed Britain on its journey over.

Fossil analysis revealed a continuous record for these snails in Ireland for the past 8,000 years and well preserved shell remnants from France showed the creature was a snack thousands of years ago.
The researchers said it was difficult to explain this "clear pattern" except by involving humans.
"There are records of Mesolithic or Stone Age humans eating snails in the Pyrenees, and perhaps even farming them," said co-author of the study Angus Davison from the University of Nottingham.

• Evidence showed that snails were eaten in France 8,000 years ago but Dr Davison said there was no evidence they were eaten in Ireland
• The people who came to Britain and Ireland after the Ice Age were hunters and gatherers and it is thought they were constantly on the move in order to survive
• They had to search for wild foods such as nuts and berries and were known to eat red deer and fish
• They also tracked wild animals for meat and skins, such as the arctic hare and ptarmigan
• It is believed that since they were so mobile, they lived in temporary structures that were light, easily dismantled and portable

"If the snails naturally colonised Ireland, you would expect to find some of the same genetic type in other areas of Europe, especially Britain. We just don't find them.
"The highways of the past were rivers and the ocean - as the river that flanks the Pyrenees was an ancient trade route to the Atlantic. What we're actually seeing might be the long lasting legacy of snails that hitched a ride as humans travelled from the South of France to Ireland 8,000 years ago.
"The intriguing implication is that the genetics of snails might shed light on a very old human migration event," Dr Davison added.
Population geneticist Dan Bradley from Trinity College Dublin said the study showed a recurring theme that some species in Ireland had similar genetic types to southern Europe, but not to those found in Britain.
"It's consistent with the idea that almost everything we have in Ireland, that can't swim or fly, was brought here on a boat."
Previous genetic studies on humans have also shown clear links between the population of Ireland and those in Southern Europe.
"The genetic patterns in humans are there, but are much weaker. You see it in blood groups, in Y chromosomes and some diseases.
"In order to really understand migration patterns we need more ancient DNA from different species such as small mammals," Prof Bradley told BBC News.
Scientists, including Prof Bradley are now working on further studies on human remains, which over the next few years will "tell us exciting things about human migration".

Ipso

steddyeddy wrote: »

Ipso wrote: »

The genetic link to Spain mentioned there (must be a very old article if it's referring to haplogroup 1) has more to do with both regions sharing a similar male lineage than one population coming directly from the other.

Or both populations sharing a common ancestor. However I believe it morelikely that the Basque people settled first and some of their number brought haplogroup R1b into Ireland



Well another piece of evidence is animal genetics. In this case snails. The genotype of snails in Ireland matches that of snails in northern Spain and south France. The record for these snails goes back 9000 years This predates the Bell Beaker culture. Article below:

There's a good chance that R1b-M269 only arrived in the Basque region around 5,000 to 6,000 years ago, more recent evidence suggests an East to West movement.
The idea of Basques as an ancient genetic reservoir has faded rapidly in recent years.

steddyeddy

Ipso wrote: »

steddyeddy wrote: »

Ipso wrote: »

The genetic link to Spain mentioned there (must be a very old article if it's referring to haplogroup 1) has more to do with both regions sharing a similar male lineage than one population coming directly from the other.


There's a good chance that R1b-M269 only arrived in the Basque region around 5,000 to 6,000 years ago, more recent evidence suggests an East to West movement.
The idea of Basques as an ancient genetic reservoir has faded rapidly in recent years.

Could you provide the evidence you speak of?

Ipso

It's worth having a trawl through this site. There are some good threads and it is very up to date.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4640-Population-genomics-of-Bronze-Age-Eurasia-(Allentoft-et-al-2015)

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3474-Bell-Beakers-Gimbutas-and-R1b

Dubhthach can probably explain it better but since the original studies that linked the Irish to Basques (based upon percentages mote than anything), there have been some big developments.
The main ones was finding R1b in sites on the Steppes, and most of the very old samples in Europe being other haplogroups like C, G and I.

The R1b in Ireland is a group called L21 which is also found in high numbers in Britain, the group in Iberia falls under DF27 (I think).
The high numbers in Ireland would be down to the male dominated culture of the Gaelic era where chieftans had many sons and those sons in turn had more and do on.
There are a couple threads on here that explain it better.

Qualitymark

Ipso wrote: »

male dominated culture of the Gaelic era where chieftans had many sons and those sons in turn had more and do on.

Yikes! What did they do with the girls?

BoltzmannBrain

Interesting!