Ireland v France [build up thread]

rrpc

total former wrote: »

D'Arcy in the Times today very much subscribes to the idea that we have been holding back in terms of our set attacking plays, keeping them in the locker etc. And I think that's plausible, you shouldn't need to break out the A-game to beat Italy.

Even allowing for that, we were still a long way short of where we should be, but no need to panic just yet.

Yep, read that. It was actually quoted from Off the ball last night. He seems very sure that we will be popping a few rabbits out of the hat. This quote was especially interesting:

We've played so little rugby that there's nothing to analyse. We've played the same style of rugby for six games.

Lucy8080

I think both these teams would have been aiming at preparation for the Q/F's. A solid test with the added spice of topping the pool for the winner, would have been noted long ago.

Contrast with pool A. Although Australia have been the most impressive team so far, can either of Wales and Australia make the final? Considering they will have played each other, England and Fiji before then trying to navigate a Q/F and S/F in consecutive weeks?

That's a pretty tough schedule for any rugby side!

Surely S.A. and Scotland( most likely) will be rubbing their hands at the prospect of testing a Pool A side a month after that pool started!

I think Ireland/France and N.Z./ARG are timing their runs to hit the Q/F's as sharp and match ready as possible.

Which pool has the most ideal pre-Q/F warm up? It may be ours (fingers crossed). Hopefully, no injuries for either side and that they leave each other ready for what lies ahead.

noway12345

Let's hope we have something hidden up our sleeves. We're so predictable.

AdiDashery

noway12345 wrote: »

Let's hope we have something hidden up our sleeves. We're so predictable.

I'd cream myself if we pull out moves similar to the aussie second try V England. Absoloutely majestic.

AdiDashery

AdiDashery wrote: »

I'd cream myself if we pull out moves similar to the aussie second try V England. Absoloutely majestic.

It was a really well worked try, but it has to be said that England's defence was not solid at all.

noway12345

AdiDashery wrote: »

I'd cream myself if we pull out moves similar to the aussie second try V England. Absoloutely majestic.

If we're all being honest, that's what we were hoping for under Schmidt. He's done an excellent job but I was hoping for some of the rugby Leinster played un Joe. Hard to complain though.

Podge_irl

noway12345 wrote: »

If we're all being honest, that's what we were hoping for under Schmidt. He's done an excellent job but I was hoping for some of the rugby Leinster played un Joe. Hard to complain though.

Leisnter played plenty of games similar to Ireland against Italy, especially away from home.

noway12345

Podge_irl wrote: »

Leisnter played plenty of games similar to Ireland against Italy, especially away from home.

That's why I said some of the rugby Leinster played under Joe.

rrpc

Podge_irl wrote: »

Leisnter played plenty of games similar to Ireland against Italy, especially away from home.

The one thing that was consistent across all Leinster's matches under Joe, whether home or away was defence.

AdiDashery

Deleted User wrote: »

It was a really well worked try, but it has to be said that England's defence was not solid at all.

Agree 100%. The English defense was very weak. The Aussies general play was very visually impressive though, Hooper in particular standing out.
Ones to watch..

stadedublinois

Pudsy33 wrote: »

To be honest I reckon we will see more of them and it's a decent strategy. Nacataki is a ropey fielder and Dulin is small. The kicks themselves however need to be better.

Dulin may be small but he is good in the air. There has been some suggestions here that Grosso will start instead of Nakaitaci.

WarZ

smiley_face wrote: »

Centres:
12 = Fofana (hands down)
13 = Payne (barely)

Overall, Centres - France

Payne is an excellent 13 but he is no Basteraud. I've read his name more than once when centres are asked who was one of the hardest centres to defend against.

He will be targeting Sexton all game as well.

.ak

You just don't get to open up sides like Leinster did on the international stage. Australia are the best at heads up rugby and they analysed England's defence around the ruck really well, but englabd were poor not to react to it IMO. We won't see lapses like that in anyone we meet from here on out. People expecting us to score
Incredibly complex tries off first or second phase will be disappointed, although we certainly have the ability

rrpc

WarZ wrote: »

Payne is an excellent 13 but he is no Basteraud. I've read his name more than once when centres are asked who was one of the hardest centres to defend against.

He will be targeting Sexton all game as well.

No offence but it's hardly earth-shattering to say Bastareaud is difficult to defend against. He's largely ineffective if he doesn't get the ball though, so cutting him out of the play would be the first order of business. When we have the ball, it's vital that we don't faff about at rucks because he's so difficult to shift once he gets over the ball.

awec

.ak wrote: »

You just don't get to open up sides like Leinster did on the international stage. Australia are the best at heads up rugby and they analysed England's defence around the ruck really well, but englabd were poor not to react to it IMO. We won't see lapses like that in anyone we meet from here on out. People expecting us to score
Incredibly complex tries off first or second phase will be disappointed, although we certainly have the ability

Japan did against SA.

Ireland wouldn't score a try like they did off that lineout cause we'd have booted the ball away half way through the move.

shrapnel222

Biggest issue for France is the backs, especially the wings. Nakaitaci is out of favor, which pretty much means Grosso will be on the right wing (even though he gassed after 60 minutes in the canada game as he lacks the experience at that level).
Spedding is pretty much guaranteed to be full back, and the reason why PSA tried Dulin on the wing is that he knows Ireland will be kicking behind a lot, and Dulin is rock solid under the high ball whereas Guitoune is a liability.

Unfortunately this is quite a negative mind set as Dulin offers very little on the wing.

.ak

awec wrote: »

Japan did against SA.

Ireland wouldn't score a try like they did off that lineout cause we'd have booted the ball away half way through the move.

Japan against SA was a freak game. They tried that against Scotland the week after and got hammered.

The second part of your post is erroneous. We've cut sides open before. You have to play smart rugby according to the opposition, running dummy lines and passing out the back door looks great but against a well drilled international defence it's just suicide.

People are expecting something because it's what they want to see, they're not being realistic about things.

rrpc

awec wrote: »

Japan did against SA.

Ireland wouldn't score a try like they did off that lineout cause we'd have booted the ball away half way through the move.

Ah here! We scored a try from a lineout steal against Italy after two phases. We're well capable of it and we very seldom boot the ball in the red zone unless it's a free play on penalty advantage. Even then, we've had some success in that area too.

Happyman42

I have no worries if France have a better day and beat us. We have qualified for the next round.
I don't care what stage we go out at, if we are not prepared to take on NZ and beat them to stay in...so be it. We are not good enough on this occasion.

''Lay on, RWC,. And damned be him that first cries, “Hold, enough!”

awec

Well I think the ideal scenario for us is to beat France and for someone else to knock NZ out.

Akrasia

Happyman42 wrote: »

I have no worries if France have a better day and beat us. We have qualified for the next round.
I don't care what stage we go out at, if we are not prepared to take on NZ and beat them to stay in...so be it. We are not good enough on this occasion.

''Lay on, RWC,. And damned be him that first cries, “Hold, enough!”

I want to play NZ in the final. It would be so depressing to finally beat NZ in the QF to go on and lose to the likes of France in the final

Happyman42

Akrasia wrote: »

I want to play NZ in the final. It would be so depressing to finally beat NZ in the QF to go on and lose to the likes of France in the final

You just need something to worry about!

Notfrontrow

AdiDashery wrote: »

It depends what you mean by holding something back. Will we have a few set plays that Joe has concocted similar to the lineout move that the AB's used to win the last RWC or something like the move against the Italians that saw Earls cross the line, then i'd say yes.
But there's no way Murray was intentionally box kicking to such inaccuracy last week to try and fool the french. Same to be said for handling errors and indiscipline. The latter being of real concern to me.

I don't think there is a massive bag of tricks being kept in reserve for this match - but I do believe that the poor line speed & intensity that we showed against Italy will change significantly in the France match.

techdiver

Notfrontrow wrote: »

I don't think there is a massive bag of tricks being kept in reserve for this match - but I do believe that the poor line speed & intensity that we showed against Italy will change significantly in the France match.

I tend to agree with this.

However I do think once the intensity and accuracy is up to scratch, we will get opportunities to open the French defense.
I think there might be one or two lineout set plays in the red zone, but I'm not expecting any significant moves a la Australia v England.

smiley_face

WarZ wrote: »

Payne is an excellent 13 but he is no Basteraud. I've read his name more than once when centres are asked who was one of the hardest centres to defend against.

He will be targeting Sexton all game as well.

rrpc wrote: »

No offence but it's hardly earth-shattering to say Bastareaud is difficult to defend against. He's largely ineffective if he doesn't get the ball though, so cutting him out of the play would be the first order of business. When we have the ball, it's vital that we don't faff about at rucks because he's so difficult to shift once he gets over the ball.

Bastareaud is an effective ball-carrier, and has a great pair of hands.
Close to the try-line he's a real threat to barge over.
He also draws attention to himself, and frees up the players around him.
He has the potential to be a MOTM contender on his day, and the fact he is being selected for Toulon and France says a lot.

I don't believe he can carry almost 20 stone around the pitch effectively for 80 minutes of an intense international match; if Ireland manoeuvre the ball around the pitch and force Bastareaud to cover a lot of ground, he will be neutralised to an extent and he will tire and will probably be substituted after 60 minutes.
He also lacks top end pace, so he will never make a break from his own half and get to the tryline without having to use a support runner.
Likewise, he will be of no use for tracking back if Ireland kick cleverly in behind him.
I've never seen Bastareaud compete for a high ball, I imagine he couldn't jump off the ground very high anyway.
He is very good at making destructive hits in the tackle, particularly on the outhalf, and generally uses his bulk well to hit high, around the chest region, and if he gets an opportunity to poach at the ruck he is a big man to have to shift out of the way.

Payne on the other hand has a good carry into contact, also has good hands, but has a much better fitness level, and can cover the pitch for 80 minutes of a high intensity match.
Payne also has the attributes to run with the ball in the outside channels and can win a footrace in attack or defence.
Payne is solid under high ball.
He has a very solid defensive game, against big guys and against fast guys, and he is a very intelligent player at ruck situations.

So by comparison, even considering the two teams' game plans, they will both have different jobs to do, I think Payne is the better player and will be more useful to Ireland than Bastareaud will be for France.

Of course, Bastareaud could have a good match, the possession may go their way, and he may get some good hits and carries in, so that's why I posted that I though Payne is IMO the better player, barely.

It will be a very interesting battle to watch.

JF100

Bonjour Everybody...
Firstly: I believe Iroced is a spy with a big French ladle; sent to stir things up for us Nervous Paddy Lovers (NPLs).
Secondly: NFR is correct; defensive line speed and intensity will be upped significantly on Sunday.
Thirdly: we will see box kicking from Murray; we always do.
[A good gauge of a kicking strategy's success (or otherwise) is where on the pitch does the kicking off team re-receive possession of the ball? I.e. Is it a line-out near half-way or is it free possession to a full back running on to the ball with a consequent range of attacking options available to him?]

Case in point: Oz were getting offensive line-outs near the Eng 22 from their kick-offs. Irl are brighter than that.

STATS question: how many possessions did Bowe win back from Murray's ("offensive") box kicks against the Azzurri?
(It might influence Joe's selection thoughts).
2nd question: when do we see the team announced?
3rd question: any insight on Payne and R Kearney recovery schedules?
(Thanks in advance)...

rrpc

smiley_face wrote: »

I don't believe he can carry almost 20 stone around the pitch effectively for 80 minutes of an intense international match; if Ireland manoeuvre the ball around the pitch and force Bastareaud to cover a lot of ground, he will be neutralised to an extent and he will tire and will probably be substituted after 60 minutes.

I used to think that, but I've seen him put in a full 80 minute shift for Toulon and France and still be creating a nuisance of himself at the end. He's a lot fitter than he looks and since he's been in camp for a protracted period of time without too many games, I expect him to be fit and firing come Sunday.

MJohnston

JF100 wrote: »

2nd question: when do we see the team announced?

Ireland Team announcement calculation formula:

A = L(K-2 days)

Where
A is the day of Announcement
K is the day of Kickoff
L is 'the lunchtime of' where lunchtime can be anywhere between 12pm and 2pm.

smiley_face

Happyman42 wrote: »

I have no worries if France have a better day and beat us. We have qualified for the next round.
I don't care what stage we go out at, if we are not prepared to take on NZ and beat them to stay in...so be it. We are not good enough on this occasion.

Why not go for a mixed team, some of our bench starting, and some of our starters benching, plus a few taking a rest.
We could still beat France with this selection, I think we have such a solid squad we don't need to play our absolute first 23 in the group stages.
We've already qualified.
Beating France should not be the sole focus, if we would then not be properly prepared to win the next round which would be our best ever achievement to date in RWC history.

Healy, Best, White,
Toner, POC,
Murphy, Henry, Heaslip,
Reddan, Madigan,
Fitzgerald, Henshaw, Payne, Earls,
R Kearney

Bench: Cronin, McGrath, Ross, Henderson, SOB, Murray, Sexton, Zebo.

Noopti

smiley_face wrote: »

Why not go for a mixed team, some of our bench starting, and some of our starters benching, plus a few taking a rest.
We could still beat France with this selection, I think we have such a solid squad we don't need to play our absolute first 23 in the group stages.
We've already qualified.
Beating France should not be the sole focus, if we wound then not be properly prepared to win the next round which would be our best ever achievement to date in RWC history.

Healy, Best, White,
Toner, POC,
Murphy, Henry, Heaslip,
Reddan, Madigan,
Fitzgerald, Henshaw, Payne, Earls,
R Kearney

Bench: McGrath, Cronin, Ross, Henderson, SOB, Murray, Sexton, Zebo.

Seriously??

NoelJ

We're playing France not bloody Namibia

smiley_face

Noopti wrote: »

Seriously??

Yes.
Who of those players is not capable?
They would be well able IMO.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

Japan did against SA.

Ireland wouldn't score a try like they did off that lineout cause we'd have booted the ball away half way through the move.

I'm just going to leave these here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uv0l6niSTEk

2:18 into this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4z72ib9AOQ

2:31 into this which saw a peel off a line-out just fall short:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3g2S6pzglc

3 examples that spring to mind and can be easily found. Also, it's incredibly rare that a try like that one against SA would be scored against top tier opposition because the space just isn't there. How many other first phase moves off a line-out have you seen that have led to tries in the last few years against quality teams?

NoelJ

smiley_face wrote: »

Yes.
Who of those players is not capable?
They would be well able IMO.

Reddan, Madigan and White are massively below the starting 15.

Flipper22

awec wrote: »

Japan did against SA.

Ireland wouldn't score a try like they did off that lineout cause we'd have booted the ball away half way through the move.

This is a silly comment.

smiley_face

NoelJ wrote: »

Reddan, Madigan and White are massively below the starting 15.

Reddan is not "massively below" and could actually be an improvement on Murray from the last match.
Madigan is below Sexton for passing, but you could swap him and Sexton early on if he was playing badly, and at least Madigan is better at kicking from the tee.
White is not below the starting 15 at all, and may be better than Ross if given a chance, and I'd say he would be more mobile.
Also have Furlong if you prefer him.

Anyway, point is a bit of rotation would freshen up the 1st choice guys for the quarter finals.

NoelJ

smiley_face wrote: »

Reddan is not "massively below" and could actually be an improvement on Murray from the last match.
Madigan is below Sexton for passing, but you could swap him and Sextonearly on if he was playing badly, and at least Madigan is better at kicking From the tee.
White is not below the starting 15 at all, and may be better if given a chance, and I'd say he would be more mobile.
Also have Furlong if you prefer him.

There is no comparison between Sexton and Madigan. Sexton is regarded as one of the top 10s in the world. Madigan isn't even close.

Gero2

Anyone travelling to match on Sunday
Via Birmingham airport
And looking to car share
Interested ?
Ger

WarZ

smiley_face wrote: »

Why not go for a mixed team, some of our bench starting, and some of our starters benching, plus a few taking a rest.
We could still beat France with this selection, I think we have such a solid squad we don't need to play our absolute first 23 in the group stages.
We've already qualified.
Beating France should not be the sole focus, if we would then not be properly prepared to win the next round which would be our best ever achievement to date in RWC history.

Healy, Best, White,
Toner, POC,
Murphy, Henry, Heaslip,
Reddan, Madigan,
Fitzgerald, Henshaw, Payne, Earls,
R Kearney


Bench: Cronin, McGrath, Ross, Henderson, SOB, Murray, Sexton, Zebo.

Christ.

total former

NoelJ wrote: »

Reddan, Madigan and White are massively below the starting 15.

I think Reddan could do a job if a different game plan was adopted; if we go with the usual game plan, it absolutely has to be Murray.

There is no game plan for which Madigan should be picked ahead of a fit Sexton. Ditto White ahead of Ross.

Likewise, picking Murphy and Henry ahead of POM and SOB would be madness, regardless of game plan.

smiley_face

total former wrote: »

I think Reddan could do a job if a different game plan was adopted; if we go with the usual game plan, it absolutely has to be Murray.

There is no game plan for which Madigan should be picked ahead of a fit Sexton. Ditto White ahead of Ross.

Likewise, picking Murphy and Henry ahead of POM and SOB would be madness, regardless of game plan.

Again, Henry is possibly better than SOB, and POM was not at his best in the last few matches, and Murphy is a good replacement.
SOB coming on as an impact sub also adds something.
The point being that we rest a few players so that we have a better chance in the quarter final while still having a chance of beating France.

Flipper22

Gero2 wrote: »

Anyone travelling to match on Sunday
Via Birmingham airport
And looking to car share
Interested ?
Ger

Don't rent from Green Motion!! Especially the Birmingham one.

rrpc

smiley_face wrote: »

Again, Henry is possibly better than SOB, and POM was not at his best in the last few matches, and Murphy is a good replacement.
SOB coming on as an impact sub also adds something.

Adding something by subtracting it from the starting line up is a zero sum game.

smiley_face

rrpc wrote: »

Adding something by subtracting it from the starting line up is a zero sum game.

You're assuming Henry will be worse, and I don't agree.
SOB's dynamism would be better in the last 20 minutes, could make a big difference at that point, whereas Henry could do the graft to wear them down.
Similar to Cronin's impact, and Henderson's impact, and Healy of a couple of years ago too.

rrpc

smiley_face wrote: »

You're assuming Henry will be worse, and I don't agree.

No you're assuming that by saying SOB adds something.

smiley_face

rrpc wrote: »

No you're assuming that by saying SOB adds something.

No, I'm not, a sub for 20 minutes has a different role than a player for first 60 minutes.
If you can't understand that I don't know what to tell you, I can't make it any clearer.

One player could be devastating for 20 minutes at the end of a match when opposition are tired, whereas another could be consistently strong for 60 minutes when the opposition needs to be worn down and there are no gaps to run at.

Clearlier

smiley_face wrote: »

Again, Henry is possibly better than SOB, and POM was not at his best in the last few matches, and Murphy is a good replacement.
SOB coming on as an impact sub also adds something.
The point being that we rest a few players so that we have a better chance in the quarter final while still having a chance of beating France.

Last time we tried this was at Lens in '99. How did that turn out?

Of course if you think that meeting NZ in the QF is much of a muchness with meeting Argentina then fair enough but in that case why not just rest the whole 1st choice selection and wrap them in cotton wool?

BTW, would you ever stop eating that cake that you have? Either we rest our better players or we select our better players but we can't both rest our best players and select other ones that are better!

rrpc

smiley_face wrote: »

No, I'm not, a sub for 20 minutes has a different role than a player for first 60 minutes.
If you can't understand that I don't know what to tell you, I can't make it any clearer.

One player could be devastating for 20 minutes at the end of a match when opposition are tired, whereas another could be consistently strong for 60 minutes when the opposition needs to be worn down and there are no gaps to run at.

We're talking about Sean O'Brien here. Not 'one player'. He's hardly been used as a sub, so his impact could well be negligible compared to how he starts. Cian Healy is a case in point, he never seems to be as good off the bench as he is when he starts. Sean O'Brien has only about three sub appearances in the last four years, so you're just guessing as to his possible impact.

Finally, what you don't seem to get from my posts is that subbing Sean O'Brien on for 20 minutes deprives us of him for 60.

smiley_face

smiley_face wrote: »

No, I'm not, a sub for 20 minutes has a different role than a player for first 60 minutes.
If you can't understand that I don't know what to tell you, I can't make it any clearer.

One player could be devastating for 20 minutes at the end of a match when opposition are tired, whereas another could be consistently strong for 60 minutes when the opposition needs to be worn down and there are no gaps to run at.

Sean O'Brien is a better player than Chris Henry. You will find absolutely no one, including Chris Henry who would agree with you otherwise.

Henry has a great game, but doesn't have the variety to his game that SOB brings.

Sean O'Brien will stay on the pitch until he is completely flogged or until the final whistle sounds. Why would we limit him to 20 minutes at the end of the game. Win the game first, then worry about the last 20 minutes.

mfceiling

WarZ wrote: »

Christ.

I wouldn't start him. If he had a bad game he would be crucified.