Ryanair-Extortionate exchange rates ( Complaint to CCPC, ECC Ireland & Ryanair)

feargale

delahuntv wrote: »

How about giving them a chance to reply before whining to the world and its mother?

So, anybody who reports an experience in Consumer Issues is whining? That's the second time you've used that word here. I'm grateful to OP for alerting us to this practice. You on the other hand seem to think it should be kept secret. I wonder why.

feargale

feargale wrote: »

So, anybody who reports an experience in Consumer Issues is whining? That's the second time you've used that word here. I'm grateful to OP for alerting us to this practice. You on the other hand seem to think it should be kept secret. I wonder why.

P.S. They can reply here if they want.

power101

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

So if i say that it could possibly rain tomorrow that doesnt imply that it could possibly not rain? bizarre logic.

The way they phrase, using your example it would be more like "... possibly torrential downpour tomorrow" They don't just say higher , for some strange reason they also added significantly which would make customers more likely to take their rate.

hognef

The entire concept of offering the buyer the option to pay in their own currency has always appeared to me as a sneaky way to trick them into paying more. I doubt any buyer has ever "won" by choosing that option.

I'm not sure what margins are normally added, but the 6% mentioned by the OP sounds over the top. Doesn't surprise me at all that this is coming from Ryanair though, as really this is just another example of them forcing people to opt out of, rather than in to, their expensive extras. No doubt lots will be caught out, just like they will have by Ryanair's travel insurance, etc.

The warnings are specifically designed to scare people back to Ryanair's preselected option.

While their wording may technically be correct, it's so unlikely to ever be correct that it effectively does constitute a lie.

This is a perfect example of a consumer issue: The consumer should be entitled to trust the seller, and shouldn't have to go through every detail with a fine tooth comb just to make sure they're not being screwed over. The corporate seller will always have the expertise and upper hand in these scenarios, which is precisely why the consumer needs protection.

It never ceases to amaze me how many appear to side with the seller in these cases (even though the seller's intent is obviously to take advantage of unaware consumers)--why are people so set on leaving every consumer on their own?

durtybit

power101 wrote: »

The way they phrase, using your example it would be more like "... possibly torrential downpour tomorrow" They don't just say higher , for some strange reason they also added significantly which would make customers more likely to take their rate.

If you have the skills to book a flight you have the skills to Google exchange rates.

MOH

It's a poor exchange rate for the consumer, but it's far from unique to Ryanair.

I'm seen the same thing on virtually every cross-currency transaction I've done online that offers the options of paying in their or your own currency, on many sites. And it's generally presented as being for the consumer's benefit, while being a higher rate than you might get from your own bank.

Not defending the practice, but it's probably worth bearing in mind that credit/debit cards have a range of different terms and exchange rates, and some of them can incur fees for cross-currency transactions. So while in your case the Ryanair rate might have been far higher than your bank's, it's quite possible that for someone else their "extortionate" fee might be closer to their bank's rate, and offset by saving on fees.

Flatzie_poo

MOH wrote: »

It's a poor exchange rate for the consumer, but it's far from unique to Ryanair.

I'm seen the same thing on virtually every cross-currency transaction I've done online that offers the options of paying in their or your own currency, on many sites. And it's generally presented as being for the consumer's benefit, while being a higher rate than you might get from your own bank.

Caveat emptor applies alright, but I think the main consumer issue here is how hard it is to pay in local currency vs base.

ohnonotgmail

Flatzie_poo wrote: »

Caveat emptor applies alright, but I think the main consumer issue here is how hard it is to pay in local currency vs base.

as i explained already the process of switching back to sterling is very simple.

Flatzie_poo

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

as i explained already the process of switching back to sterling is very simple.

I'm talking about OP's issue. Just because you find something easy, does not mean everyone else will.

Graham

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

as i explained already the process of switching back to sterling is very simple.

The ease of switching isn't the issue.

The pre-selection of the (almost always) more expensive option is a UX dark pattern deliberately put in place to make additional revenue with almost zero benefit on the consumer side.

Effectively it's a surcharge for people that don't understand what is being pre-selected on their behalf.

ohnonotgmail

Graham wrote: »

The ease of switching isn't the issue.

The pre-selection of the (almost always) more expensive option is a UX dark pattern deliberately put in place to make additional revenue with almost zero benefit on the consumer side.

Effectively it's a surcharge for people that don't understand what is being pre-selected on their behalf.

i was responding to a post that said

the main consumer issue here is how hard it is to pay in local currency vs base.

nothing more.

witchgirl26

power101 wrote: »

Everything about the statement is misleading.

Ryanair's rate is also subject to daily fluctuations. Why is that line even in the text.

Because you pay the exact amount shown when you purchase whereas if you choose to let your bank do the conversion, it depends on the day the transaction hits your card as to what the exchange rate is. And sometimes it can take a couple of days to go through.

power101 wrote: »

Actually no it will always be lower if you go through your bank and don't take their outrageously expensive exchange rate. Misleading

They do say that it could be. Not that it will be. It's not misleading. It's warning you of a risk. I've had it, not with Ryanair mind but other online purchases, where it actually cost me more to pay in the local currency & not my own. Not by a massive amount but a little.

power101 wrote: »

They recommend that the customer in effect pays a higher fare?!

Of course they do! They're running a business & want the easiest option which is that you use their exchange rate. Plus for the sake of €5 I know very few people who'll really go mad about it. Mainly they'll just want to know exactly how much they are paying.

Look I get that it's annoying but at the end of the day they don't seemed to have breached any advertising standards etc. They give you the option to not pay in Euro & lay out the terms & conditions along with the exchange rate. It's the buyers choice at the end of the day with all the information there.

Flatzie_poo

witchgirl26 wrote: »

Plus for the sake of €5 I know very few people who'll really go mad about it.

If someone were to book multiple flight oblivious to this the cost is suddenly a lot more than €5...

The process should be seamless.

I don't see why the default "please select" and a dropdown with both options shouldn't be standard.

In my opinion, a default should favour the consumer as a norm.

witchgirl26

Flatzie_poo wrote: »

If someone were to book multiple flight oblivious to this the cost is suddenly a lot more than €5...

The process should be seamless.

I don't see why the default "please select" and a dropdown with both options shouldn't be standard.

In my opinion, a default should favour the consumer as a norm.

Because businesses are not there to favour the consumer - they are there to make money. And as long as they don't breach any standards of operation, they can do that how they wish.

In fact I'm not sure they have to even give you the option to pay in a currency that is not your own local currency but I'm open to correction on that one.

Look I could understand the outrage if they were forcing you to pay in Euro and you were in the UK but they're not. They are offering you the chance to pay in your own currency rather than in a foreign currency.

Flatzie_poo

witchgirl26 wrote: »

Because businesses are not there to favour the consumer - they are there to make money. And as long as they don't breach any standards of operation, they can do that how they wish.

No, but trading standards and directives are. My point is that the default option should favour the consumer.

witchgirl26 wrote: »

Look I could understand the outrage if they were forcing you to pay in Euro and you were in the UK but they're not. They are offering you the chance to pay in your own currency rather than in a foreign currency.

At an extortionate rate.

witchgirl26

Flatzie_poo wrote: »

No, but trading standards and directives are. My point is that the default option should favour the consumer.

Yes trading standards & directives are but there is no breach of those in this instance. You were offered the option. They don't have to make it the easiest thing in the world but it wasn't over complicated.

And some would argue that knowing exactly what amount will show up on your credit/debit card & paying in your own currency (not a foreign one) is actually favouring the consumer.

Flatzie_poo

witchgirl26 wrote: »

Yes trading standards & directives are but there is no breach of those in this instance. You were offered the option. They don't have to make it the easiest thing in the world but it wasn't over complicated

I never said there was a breach. My point was a proactive approach on improving online payment systems.

witchgirl26 wrote: »

And some would argue that knowing exactly what amount will show up on your credit/debit card & paying in your own currency (not a foreign one) is actually favouring the consumer.

Aren't they required to show the full amount they will deduct for your card?

That wasn't always the case. Which links into my point on the default dropdown.

There were no breaches when Ryanair etc weren't including the full taxes etc on prices, until a law came in.

Anyway, this is getting off topic.

witchgirl26

Flatzie_poo wrote: »

Aren't they required to show the full amount they will deduct for your card?

I think you're missing my point. If they say it'll be €89 & you pay in Euro then you know exactly what amount you have been charged on your Euro based credit card. You pay £67 then you have to wait to see what the amount comes up as in Euro on your credit card. You know the £ amount but not what the Euro equivalent based on your banks exchange rate is.

Flatzie_poo wrote: »

Anyway, this is getting off topic.

I don't see it as being off topic. Yes the exchange rates are not on par with the bank but the option is there. It's not the easiest but I still don't believe it constitutes a complaint as it's still available.

Flatzie_poo

witchgirl26 wrote: »

I think you're missing my point. If they say it'll be €89 & you pay in Euro then you know exactly what amount you have been charged on your Euro based credit card. You pay £67 then you have to wait to see what the amount comes up as in Euro on your credit card. You know the £ amount but not what the Euro equivalent based on your banks exchange rate is.

You know the € amount at the loss of about €5. Your argument for this is just invalid. Go to XE.com and get a far more accurate rate at the loss of about 5 seconds of your life. You can know before clicking pay.

witchgirl26 wrote: »

Yes the exchange rates are not on par with the bank

Nowhere near on par.

witchgirl26 wrote: »

but the option is there. It's not the easiest but I still don't believe it constitutes a complaint as it's still available.

It should be easy. The way in which it their site defaults to the less favorable rate warrants a complaint alone.

feargale

hognef wrote: »

It never ceases to amaze me how many appear to side with the seller in these cases (even though the seller's intent is obviously to take advantage of unaware consumers)--why are people so set on leaving every consumer on their own?

Sometimes when a complaint is made in Consumer Issues a representative of the company openly posts in response. That's fair enough even if we don't agree with the response.
However I suspect that occasionally a company representative posts posing as a disinterested member of the public. I would be particularly conscious of this when OP simply posts a factual statement and is then subjected to personal abuse bordering on cyber bullying or where there is an attempt to defend the indefensible. Mods don't seem to be picking up on this, though on the other hand they are very adept at detecting surreptitious advertising of goods and services.
Of course another possible explanation is that posters are engaged in commercial activity that leaves them feeling uncomfortable with exposure of sharp practice and are consequently biased against consumers' complaints of this nature.

witchgirl26

Flatzie_poo wrote: »

You know the € amount at the loss of about €5. Your argument for this is just invalid. Go to XE.com and get a far more accurate rate at the loss of about 5 seconds of your life. You can know before clicking pay.

How is it invalid? You can do that & it will give you an idea but it won't tell you the exact amount. Trust me, I've done it. It can take up to 3 days sometimes for a foreign currency transaction (which paying in £ would be) to flow through your card. Rates change. I've often been in a situation of paying for a couple of people's flights & them wanting to transfer me the money. to pay my card quickly.

Flatzie_poo wrote: »

Nowhere near on par.
It should be easy. The way in which it their site defaults to the less favorable rate warrants a complaint alone.

But why should they allow you to pay in a foreign currency? I know some places that don't allow this at all no matter what the companies base currency is.

Their site defaults to the local currency of the IP address.

witchgirl26

feargale wrote: »

Sometimes when a complaint is made in Consumer Issues a representative of the company openly posts in response. That's fair enough even if we don't agree with the response.
However I suspect that occasionally a company representative posts posing as a disinterested member of the public. I would be particularly conscious of this when OP simply posts a factual statement and is then subjected to personal abuse bordering on cyber bullying or where there is an attempt to defend the indefensible. Mods don't seem to be picking up on this, though on the other hand they are very adept at detecting surreptitious advertising of goods and services.
Of course another possible explanation is that posters are engaged in commercial activity that leaves them feeling uncomfortable with exposure of sharp practice and are consequently biased against consumers' complaints of this nature.

Just like to point out that I don't, nor have I ever, worked for Ryanair. I just simply disagree with the OP. I don't have anything against them personally either so if comments relating to cyber bullying are directed at me than I would strongly refute that.

As is always said on boards, if you think a post is personally attacking or bullying than you should report it.

Flatzie_poo

witchgirl26 wrote: »

How is it invalid? You can do that & it will give you an idea but it won't tell you the exact amount. Trust me, I've done it. It can take up to 3 days sometimes for a foreign currency transaction (which paying in £ would be) to flow through your card. Rates change.

You pay rate at time of transaction. At least any bank I've traded FXs on have. Which is most Irish banks. Rates change marginally. Unless you're extremely unlucky and there's a crash. I said it's a much more accurate rate. Not exact.

witchgirl26 wrote: »

But why should they allow you to pay in a foreign currency? I know some places that don't allow this at all no matter what the companies base currency is.

Their site defaults to the local currency of the IP address.

I'm just saying if they do allow it, it should be just as visible.

feargale

witchgirl26 wrote: »

Just like to point out that I don't, nor have I ever, worked for Ryanair. I just simply disagree with the OP. I don't have anything against them personally either so if comments relating to cyber bullying are directed at me than I would strongly refute that.

As is always said on boards, if you think a post is personally attacking or bullying than you should report it.

General comments not directed at you at all. Nor have I ever worked for Ryanair or done any work directly or indirectly for their benefit. It would be nice if posters on these Consumer Issue threads always made a similar declaration at the outset. Maybe we could start a trend here.

ohnonotgmail

Flatzie_poo wrote: »

You know the € amount at the loss of about €5. Your argument for this is just invalid. Go to XE.com and get a far more accurate rate at the loss of about 5 seconds of your life. You can know before clicking pay.
.

The rate on xe.com is the mid-market rate. you will not receive this rate from your bank.

ohnonotgmail

feargale wrote: »

Sometimes when a complaint is made in Consumer Issues a representative of the company openly posts in response. That's fair enough even if we don't agree with the response.
However I suspect that occasionally a company representative posts posing as a disinterested member of the public. I would be particularly conscious of this when OP simply posts a factual statement and is then subjected to personal abuse bordering on cyber bullying or where there is an attempt to defend the indefensible. Mods don't seem to be picking up on this, though on the other hand they are very adept at detecting surreptitious advertising of goods and services.
Of course another possible explanation is that posters are engaged in commercial activity that leaves them feeling uncomfortable with exposure of sharp practice and are consequently biased against consumers' complaints of this nature.

if you have anything to back up this accusation of shilling you should report it to the mods. Similarly any posts that could be considered abuse or bullying.

dudara

@feargale - the comment that a poster might/must work for the company under discussion comes up an awful lot in Consumer Issues. I do not look favourably on comments like this.

Please try to debate without speculating on posters' employers. It simply derails the thread. If you have suspicions about any posters, then use the Report Post function to bring it to a moderator's attention.

dudara

Flatzie_poo

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

The rate on xe.com is the mid-market rate. you will not receive this rate from your bank.

I can't make this any easier to understand... I said it gives an idea of the rate. I never said it was concrete.

Also to add, market dictating, that could be the exact rate you get.

user1842

Just to chime in here:

What Ryanair is doing is called Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC). It's a service offered by Acquirers (Acquirers are banks or payment service providers that provide card processing services to businesses).

You can use the same service in a few shops in the UK and the US that give you the option to pay in euro at point of sale.

The reason why businesses offer this service is that the get a rebate or percentage cut of each transaction that uses DCC. This reduces that amount they have to pay the Acquirer for the processing of each card transaction.

So who pays for this rebate? the consumer through a higher exchange rate (when I state exchange rate I mean the actual spot rate plus whatever the Acquirer adds on).

Let me be clear; in 99% of cases this rate will be more that your bank will charge you (unless your bank charges a very high currency conversion fee, which is not the case for Irish banks).

Thats why you should always pay with their currency at the point of sale or on-line.

The OP is right to complain. Ryanair are being disingenuous for saying you may pay more if you use their currency as in 99% of cases you will pay less.

ohnonotgmail

Flatzie_poo wrote: »

I can't make this any easier to understand... I said it gives an idea of the rate. I never said it was concrete.

Also to add, market dictating, that could be the exact rate you get.

you will never, ever, get that rate from you bank.