Ryanair-Extortionate exchange rates ( Complaint to CCPC, ECC Ireland & Ryanair)

lima

From http://www.xe.com/xetrade/help/faq4-1.htm :

"The mid-market rates shown in our free information tools and services are the midpoint between the buy rates and the sell rates prevailing in the market. We do not trade at the mid-market rate - no transactions ever occur at these rates"

It's wishful thinking to think that you can get similar rates with XE. I use them for a ballpark figure and go to CurrencyFair for the best rates.

Arguing that 'you could' get the same rate is a weak argument.

ohnonotgmail

user1842 wrote: »

You don't need to be a financial institution. I have an xe.com trade account and im not a financial institution. I used to use it when I was working in the UK and was converting euros. Way better rates than my bank especially when large sums were involved.

you need to pay more attention to the rate you think you are getting. If i ask xe for a quote for €1000 to $ it gives me 1,107.30. Funny that, considering the rate on their homepage is 1.12490. Its almost like the rate on the homepage is the mid-market rate and they give you actual buy and sell rates when you do a trade. :rolleyes:

user1842

lima wrote: »

From http://www.xe.com/xetrade/help/faq4-1.htm :

"The mid-market rates shown in our free information tools and services are the midpoint between the buy rates and the sell rates prevailing in the market. We do not trade at the mid-market rate - no transactions ever occur at these rates"

Good to know. I always used AIB's buy rate for the reference check and this always seemed to equal xe.com mid rate.

I just assumed I was getting their mid rate which if I think about it now was not the case. I should have paid more attention.

Graham

The fact remains you will almost always get a much poorer exchange rate via DCC than you will from your card provider. It's the crap exchange rate that allows the DCC providers to bung the retailers a 'rebate'.

The only exception appears to be if your bank charges a ridiculous transaction charge and so far nobody has managed to identify a mainstream Irish provider that has such a charge.

MOH

Graham wrote: »

The fact remains you will almost always get a much poorer exchange rate via DCC than you will from your card provider. It's the crap exchange rate that allows the DCC providers to bung the retailers a 'rebate'.

The only exception appears to be if your bank charges a ridiculous transaction charge and so far nobody has managed to identify a mainstream Irish provider that has such a charge.

Why limit it to a mainstream Irish provider?

Graham

MOH wrote: »

Why limit it to a mainstream Irish provider?

Because most consumers would be using a card from a mainstream provider although now I think of it there hasn't been an example of a secondary provider who's transaction charges make DCC an appealing alternative.

dudara

Posters - that is ENOUGH. I really am amazed at how far off topic thread has gone and how pedanticism is displayed here.

I have considered deleting posts, but it's going to take me a while to unpick this mess.

Any future post not linked to the Consumer Issue here will be deleted.

dudara

delahuntv

Just to give precise figures, here's today's Euro sterling rates.

Mid market rate at 8am = .7346
Current VISA Exchange Rate = .7405
Exchange rate fee (aib + BOI) = 2% = .7553
+ tranaction fee ranges from 46c to €3 (highest on cards like 3V etc)

Current DCC rate @ 8am .7696

So on a €50 transaction it would cost £38.12 using a main bank issued credit card.
and it would cost £38.48 using todays DCC rate.


Figures are Euro to sterling as tht's the DCC rates I have.

I think the OP has not factored in the 2% exchange fee and the 0.46 transaction fee as above shows difference to be very small.

Above figures are precise as per 8am today.

user1842

delahuntv wrote: »

Just to give precise figures, here's today's Euro sterling rates.

Mid market rate at 8am = .7346
Current VISA Exchange Rate = .7405
Exchange rate fee (aib + BOI) = 2% = .7553
+ tranaction fee ranges from 46c to €3 (highest on cards like 3V etc)

Current DCC rate @ 8am .7696

So on a €50 transaction it would cost £38.12 using a main bank issued credit card.
and it would cost £38.48 using todays DCC rate.


Figures are Euro to sterling as tht's the DCC rates I have.

I think the OP has not factored in the 2% exchange fee and the 0.46 transaction fee as above shows difference to be very small.

Above figures are precise as per 8am today.

Im very confused by this:

For an AIB credit card the charge today would be: £37.69.

AIB currency conversion fee is 1.75% (Minimum €0.45, Maximum €11.00 for debit, no min or max for credit)

There is no transaction fee for credit cards. Can be up 20 cent for debit cards in Ireland. Where are you getting 46c from?

May I also ask where you got the DCC exchange rate from?

power101

delahuntv wrote: »

Just to give precise figures, here's today's Euro sterling rates.

Mid market rate at 8am = .7346
Current VISA Exchange Rate = .7405
Exchange rate fee (aib + BOI) = 2% = .7553
+ tranaction fee ranges from 46c to €3 (highest on cards like 3V etc)

Current DCC rate @ 8am .7696

So on a €50 transaction it would cost £38.12 using a main bank issued credit card.
and it would cost £38.48 using todays DCC rate.


Figures are Euro to sterling as tht's the DCC rates I have.

I think the OP has not factored in the 2% exchange fee and the 0.46 transaction fee as above shows difference to be very small.

Above figures are precise as per 8am today.

My figures are correct. They are the figures I was charged and paid through my bank account or quoted on Ryanair payment page. None of them are estimated.

user1842

delahuntv wrote: »

Just to give precise figures, here's today's Euro sterling rates.

Mid market rate at 8am = .7346
Current VISA Exchange Rate = .7405
Exchange rate fee (aib + BOI) = 2% = .7553
+ tranaction fee ranges from 46c to €3 (highest on cards like 3V etc)

Current DCC rate @ 8am .7696

So on a €50 transaction it would cost £38.12 using a main bank issued credit card.
and it would cost £38.48 using todays DCC rate.


Figures are Euro to sterling as tht's the DCC rates I have.

I think the OP has not factored in the 2% exchange fee and the 0.46 transaction fee as above shows difference to be very small.

Above figures are precise as per 8am today.

And your bank is? as people should avoid it if they are charging a 46c transaction fee which no high street bank in Ireland charges.

user1842

delahuntv wrote: »

Just to give precise figures, here's today's Euro sterling rates.

Mid market rate at 8am = .7346
Current VISA Exchange Rate = .7405
Exchange rate fee (aib + BOI) = 2% = .7553
+ tranaction fee ranges from 46c to €3 (highest on cards like 3V etc)

Current DCC rate @ 8am .7696

So on a €50 transaction it would cost £38.12 using a main bank issued credit card.
and it would cost £38.48 using todays DCC rate.


Figures are Euro to sterling as tht's the DCC rates I have.

I think the OP has not factored in the 2% exchange fee and the 0.46 transaction fee as above shows difference to be very small.

Above figures are precise as per 8am today.

I really think you are confusing the "exchange rate fee" as your "transaction fee"

You probably didn't pay an "transaction fee" at all but paid the minimum "exchange rate fee" of 0.46c (for PSTB)

MOH

user1842 wrote: »

And your bank is? as people should avoid it if they are charging a 46c transaction fee which no high street bank in Ireland charges.

People keep focusing on banks in Ireland. Ryanair (and all the other merchants who do this) deal with a wide range of international cards.

I'm not saying the rate is justifiable, but saying it's extortionate on the basis of comparison to a very small sample of cards used isn't necessarily accurate.

power101

user1842 wrote: »

And your bank is? as people should avoid it if they are charging a 46c transaction fee which no high street bank in Ireland charges.

user1842 wrote: »

I really think you are confusing the "exchange rate fee" as your "transaction fee"

You probably didn't pay an "transaction fee" at all but paid the minimum "exchange rate fee" of 0.46c (for PSTB)

At no stage in any of my posts did I ever mention a transaction fee. Please read my OP.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

GBP 29.95, RATE 0.7022, CHARGE 0.43, ERTF 0.43 per my bank statement, bringing 29.95 to 43.51.

GBP 134.90, RATE 0.7095, CHARGE 1.90, ERTF 1.90 giving 193.91



Proof you will not end up paying the quoted rate. I find sometimes it's cheaper to go with the conversion offered by some websites and other times not.

Graham

Dawson Purple Commando wrote: »

GBP 29.95, RATE 0.7022, CHARGE 0.43, ERTF 0.43 per my bank statement, bringing 29.95 to 43.51.

GBP 134.90, RATE 0.7095, CHARGE 1.90, ERTF 1.90 giving 193.91



Proof you will not end up paying the quoted rate. I find sometimes it's cheaper to go with the conversion offered by some websites and other times not.

Proof of what, you've made no explanation as to what the the transactions are from, if one of them is DCC, what the exchange rate was at the time, nothing.

You appear to have just listed two unrelated foreign currency transactions for different amounts.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Graham wrote: »

Proof of what, you've made no explanation as to what the the transactions are from, if one of them is DCC, what the exchange rate was at the time, nothing.

You appear to have just listed two unrelated foreign currency transactions for different amounts.

I was showing that charges apply after the exchange rate, as detailed exactly in the real life examples.

These were two transactions without DCC.

Oh, forget it!

dudara

Posters - we're starting the circle the drain again. Can we focus on the issue? Are Ryanair being misleading and, if so, what can be done about it?

dudara

delahuntv

dudara wrote: »

Posters - we're starting the circle the drain again. Can we focus on the issue? Are Ryanair being misleading and, if so, what can be done about it?

dudara

They may be a little forceful on the wording to suggest that you would have a reasonable chance to be charged more not using their conversion - but difference is on average less than 2% and many people prefer to know the exact cost at point of purchase.


As for other poster asking how i kniw dcv rates - card machines in my stores print them automatically each morning.

I can't confirm, but it seems that the 8am dcc rate applies for the day - some days there can be volatility in the markets (as there was a couple of weeks ago) and rates can change substantially - a 3% swing happened one day and it swung back by end of the day. Possibly this plays on op's transaction - if the op gives the date it can be checked on any currency site

Graham

delahuntv wrote: »

They may be a little forceful on the wording

The ECC isn't quite as charitable in their description.

This practice is particularly worrying not only in terms of consumer economic detriment but also in terms of the quality of the information provided by the airlines concerned. Having checked the relevant terms and conditions and the information during the booking process, it is rarely indicated that transactions involving a different currency may attract fees well above what consumers would otherwise be charged (if at all) by their banks and card suppliers. In some cases, consumers are even lured into thinking that they are getting a better deal by paying in their own currency through the airline ́s website instead of allowing their banks to convert the amount in the currency offered by default to the currency of the consumer’s account, as they are “informed” that their bank may charge a different, higher, amount and “advising” consumers that banks’ rates are not “guaranteed” as they are subject to fluctuations. Even if such statements may be factually correct, it could be argued that the overall presentation may be misleading pursuant to Article 6(1)(d) of Directive 2005/29/EC on unfair commercial practices, which refers to “the price or the manner in which the price is calculated, or the existence of a specific price advantage”

Source: 'The Cost of Paying' on Airlines’ Currency & Payment Card Fees (ECC)

power101

delahuntv wrote: »

They may be a little forceful on the wording to suggest that you would have a reasonable chance to be charged more not using their conversion - but difference is on average less than 2% and many people prefer to know the exact cost at point of purchase.


As for other poster asking how i kniw dcv rates - card machines in my stores print them automatically each morning.

I can't confirm, but it seems that the 8am dcc rate applies for the day - some days there can be volatility in the markets (as there was a couple of weeks ago) and rates can change substantially - a 3% swing happened one day and it swung back by end of the day. Possibly this plays on op's transaction - if the op gives the date it can be checked on any currency site

Most people would prefer not to be sneakily ripped off and overcharged actually.
As per my OP the difference was 6.3%. It's not like I waited a whole day to pay for the flight. It was done within 60 seconds of seeing the price and came up as a pending transaction immediately on my account. My post is using accurate figures to the cent.

http://imgur.com/IDAzQ4H
imgur.com/e7wkYwg

user1842

power101 wrote: »

At no stage in any of my posts did I ever mention a transaction fee. Please read my OP.

My apologies. I meant that comment for "delahuntv" not you. I have corrected the quotes now, sorry.

delahuntv

power101 wrote: »

Most people would prefer not to be sneakily ripped off and overcharged actually.
As per my OP the difference was 6.3%. It's not like I waited a whole day to pay for the flight. It was done within 60 seconds of seeing the price and came up as a pending transaction immediately on my account. My post is using accurate figures to the cent.

http://imgur.com/IDAzQ4H
imgur.com/e7wkYwg

The DCC rate is set for the day each morning.

The credit card rate varies during the day with the market.

On a volatile day the rate can change by 2% from lowest to highest - 23rd/24th sept are 2 examples of that with rates at their lowest just before european markets open and at highest just after US markets open (ddepends on word uttered by FED on specific days). The spread on both days was in excess of 1.5% - which is very high for currencies.

It just may explain some of the difference.

Also, some bank accounts have a zero foreign currency fee - others have up to 2.5%

user1842

delahuntv wrote: »

The DCC rate is set for the day each morning.

The credit card rate varies during the day with the market.

On a volatile day the rate can change by 2% from lowest to highest - 23rd/24th sept are 2 examples of that with rates at their lowest just before european markets open and at highest just after US markets open (ddepends on word uttered by FED on specific days). The spread on both days was in excess of 1.5% - which is very high for currencies.

It just may explain some of the difference.

Also, some bank accounts have a zero foreign currency fee - others have up to 2.5%

Sorry I don't believe this is true:

VISA and MasterCard set daily rates. They do not change during the day.

http://www.visaeurope.com/making-payments/exchange-rates

https://www.mastercard.com/global/currencyconversion/

If their rates changed during the day it would be impossible for a person to calculate their liability and thus beach the PSD (Payment Services Directive).

delahuntv

Just had a chat with Elavon rep who looks after my merchant account and provide DCC.

DCC rates are calculated each mornign and provide a fixed rate for all transaction that day. The rate above mid market is 3%. Retailer gets 0.5% of that.

When you don't choose DCC, the rate that applies is the rate at settlement which is at end of the day. Hence the rate you see on the visa calculator is the rate that applies to yesterday's transactions.

Normally the market moves in small amounts, but as above on several dates recently the Euro/GBP rate moved substantially from day to day.

This can work both in fvaour and against you.

Again, if the OP gave the date of transaction it can be checked and verified.

Graham

delahuntv wrote: »

DCC rates are calculated each mornign and provide a fixed rate for all transaction that day. The rate above mid market is 3%. Retailer gets 0.5% of that.

Is that the case for every DCC provider because it doesn't appear to reflect some of the findings from the European Consumer Centre report?

user1842

delahuntv wrote: »

When you don't choose DCC, the rate that applies is the rate at settlement which is at end of the day. Hence the rate you see on the visa calculator is the rate that applies to yesterday's transactions.

Sorry this is totally incorrect. VISA and MasterCard set their rates at the beginning of each day or the end of the previous day for the next days rate. The calculators are 100% correct for the date of the transaction.

They is no exchange rate fluctuation on these rates during the day.

http://theinquiringinvestor.com/2013/10/07/how-does-visa-calculate-its-currency-exchange-rate/

delahuntv

user1842 wrote: »

Sorry this is totally incorrect. VISA and MasterCard set their rates at the beginning of each day or the end of the previous day for the next days rate. The calculators are 100% correct for the date of the transaction.

They is no exchange rate fluctuation on these rates during the day.

http://theinquiringinvestor.com/2013/10/07/how-does-visa-calculate-its-currency-exchange-rate/

I rather believe Elavon who operate the system than a "journalist" pn an online site.

If it was as you say, I could make an absolute fortune because the current Visa rate as per their site is .7378 and the market rate is currently .7413 (1% move since 8am)

Hence, I would be GUARANTEED a profit at this minute of 0.40p for every £1 if I had a card that had no foreign tarnsaction fees (some student accounts)


Considering card transactions are in the multiple millions every day, it would be a massive loss for VISA, and I just donlt think they make losses like this.

delahuntv

Graham wrote: »

Is that the case for every DCC provider because it doesn't appear to reflect some of the findings from the European Consumer Centre report?

don't know. but Barclaycard are 2.95%, so it seems similar.

Graham

delahuntv wrote: »

don't know. but Barclaycard are 2.95%, so it seems similar.

On the surface it sounds like you may have found a DCC provider that doesn't cream too much extra off the customers and a nice additional .5% onto the value of each transaction for the retailer when they direct customers through DCC.

All very interesting but do you know if Ryanair use your DCC provider? I wonder if they also operate at 3% above mid-market.