Efficiency gained from employing labour.

tomwaterford

jaymla627 wrote: »

Would be inclined to stay put where you are, learn/avail of as many courses training days as you can and basically make yourself irreplaceable to the garage, good mechanics are getting rare and you'll easily be able to clear 750-800 net once you get yourself up to a good level....
Uncle runs a large tractor dealership and the top lads their are clearing this wage plus van/diseal he would be a tight man with wages too but he has to pay these boys well our they can walk into a new job in the morning

I would be at an ok level...and for a 39 hour week id clear nothing like that...between apprenticeships etc I've about 7-8 years experience falling between farm/plant machinery....hopefully with economy picking up it'll increase employment possibilities


There's a reason good mechanics are rare as pay is not good....I know of two mechanics (25+ years) in a large cork/limerick tractor garage who've left to go milking cows On rented land??

have2flushtwice

Jesus I'm redundant since July. Moved to b sloe to get closer to home and away from the hassle in Dublin. All I can get is 10 an hour from a builder. No other work around the place. It's a fair drop in style from the job I had and the wages I got were super. I've no problem with labouring or machines, had lunch at the table with a powerwasher and an open container of diesel in front of me. Far cry from the old place, but that's where started so i dont mind. Wish I could get something better and I can't understand why some lads don't try harder in work. I give it my all every day no matter what the job.

Bullocks

have2flushtwice wrote: »

Jesus I'm redundant since July. Moved to b sloe to get closer to home and away from the hassle in Dublin. All I can get is 10 an hour from a builder. No other work around the place. It's a fair drop in style from the job I had and the wages I got were super. I've no problem with labouring or machines, had lunch at the table with a powerwasher and an open container of diesel in front of me. Far cry from the old place, but that's where started so i dont mind. Wish I could get something better and I can't understand why some lads don't try harder in work. I give it my all every day no matter what the job.

From listening to the talk about the economy you would think there is plenty of work out there but its a different story when it comes to money .
I have no problem getting work but to try and get enough out of it to pay wages doesn't add up .

Cavanjack

Boaty wrote: »

Without a degree you don't stray too far from minimum wage, experience without a degree only gets you so far it seams.

Have to disagree with You there. Many of the trades will earn You twice the average industrial wage plus.

Deepsouthwest

theemigrant wrote: »

I would of. We nearly came to blows early in the week like. Even his father is delighted hes gone as he was upsetting all our gangs due tot he fact he wasnt interested. Stupid really as he could be taking over the place if he applied himself.

No point in talking about what ifs here, when somebody's not interested then they should be let off.
Nothing worse than being shoehorned into any job that u don't want to do, farming quite often being the most guilty of this.

Kevhog1988

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

No point in talking about what ifs here, when somebody's not interested then they should be let off.
Nothing worse than being shoehorned into any job that u don't want to do, farming quite often being the most guilty of this.

i think he just doesnt want to work tbh. no matter what job hes started its always a manager etc that is at fault

C0N0R

tomwaterford wrote: »

Not the worst idea!!
Though maybe a few more years experience first (either before/after travelling-really wanna see oz/NZ)

Don't think about it go for it. Diesel mechanic would gain good coin in the mines in oz

Dawggone

C0N0R wrote: »

Don't think about it go for it. Diesel mechanic would gain good coin in the mines in oz

I've a feeling that the OZ mines will be getting quiet soon...

jaymla627

Dawggone wrote: »

I've a feeling that the OZ mines will be getting quiet soon...

With the current exchange rates with euro vs Australia dollar, turnkey 300-400 acre dairy farms out their are serious value, a million euro will buy a fully set-up dairy unit complete with machinery/cows/rotary parlour, dairy farms literally can't be given away out their at the minute

kevthegaff

jaymla627 wrote: »

With the current exchange rates with euro vs Australia dollar, turnkey 300-400 acre dairy farms out their are serious value, a million euro will buy a fully set-up dairy unit complete with machinery/cows/rotary parlour, dairy farms literally can't be given away out their at the minute

Why is that jay?

Dawggone

jaymla627 wrote: »

With the current exchange rates with euro vs Australia dollar, turnkey 300-400 acre dairy farms out their are serious value, a million euro will buy a fully set-up dairy unit complete with machinery/cows/rotary parlour, dairy farms literally can't be given away out their at the minute

You'd get the same value a lot closer to home. Turnkey also, including the dog!

jaymla627

kevthegaff wrote: »

Why is that jay?

Alot of its down to labour, the younger generation coming through have zero intrest in farming, then to hire in people your really scrapping the barrel also combined with high wages.
Also their is some seriously poor dairy guys out their who between having a total disregard for grazing systems and breeding white water holstein cows who simply can't hack the climate out their, finance is another issue as banks went crazy lending to farmers on 07/08 and alot of farms are screwed financially meaning dairy farms are being sold if a buyer can even be found for half their value compared to 07/08

jaymla627

Dawggone wrote: »

You'd get the same value a lot closer to home. Turnkey also, including the dog!

True too, you'd have to question the irish dairying model and the value being put on land etc, when you look around the rest of world in key dairying regions where a fraction of the value is attributed to it.
100 acres of extremely poor ground that's on a floodplain went for 700,000 grand near us recently to bounding dairy farmer who also took on a long term lease the 80 acres beside it that's in worse nick and is spending a small fortune reclaiming/draining it, what sense could be made of a investment like that when running 300-400 cow units can be bought worldwide for less in areas where their is actually a liquid market demand for milk and not solely reliant on trading on the commodity market

_Brian

whelan2 wrote: »

Are you allowed to give a bad reference?

Yes, as long as you can back up what you say with some sort of evidence if the person were to take a case..

So if you say to a prospective employer that X was regularly late for work and then they don't get offered the job. You would need some paperwork showing you tried to deal with the issue of lateness...best if it were warnings/pip's signed by X during the process..

Sometimes its as easy to just say X worked here for years as whatever job. When asked anything further say "I'll decline to comment", this puts enough doubt out there to put any savy employer off hiring someone.

whelan2

_Brian wrote: »

Yes, as long as you can back up what you say with some sort of evidence if the person were to take a case..

So if you say to a prospective employer that X was regularly late for work and then they don't get offered the job. You would need some paperwork showing you tried to deal with the issue of lateness...best if it were warnings/pip's signed by X during the process..

Sometimes its as easy to just say X worked here for years as whatever job. When asked anything further say "I'll decline to comment", this puts enough doubt out there to put any savy employer off hiring someone.

I often wondered why people put down peoples names for references if they know themselves they didnt work well there.

kowtow

jaymla627 wrote: »

True too, you'd have to question the irish dairying model and the value being put on land etc, when you look around the rest of world in key dairying regions where a fraction of the value is attributed to it.
100 acres of extremely poor ground that's on a floodplain went for 700,000 grand near us recently to bounding dairy farmer who also took on a long term lease the 80 acres beside it that's in worse nick and is spending a small fortune reclaiming/draining it, what sense could be made of a investment like that when running 300-400 cow units can be bought worldwide for less in areas where their is actually a liquid market demand for milk and not solely reliant on trading on the commodity market

Ah yes

But dairy land in Ireland comes complete with a "family farmer" who is prepared to work it for nothing, so it appears much more profitable than it is. Hence the price.

Ironic, isn't it, that by working away for nothing we're instantly upping the price of the additional land which our children are going to need to buy to remain efficient.

_Brian

whelan2 wrote: »

I often wondered why people put down peoples names for references if they know themselves they didnt work well there.

You'd be surprised at the amount of managers that just give glowing references no matter what... Some do it just to move on a donkey onto someone else.. I've seen that done for internal transfers too.
People also believe its illegal to give a bad reference so think they are in the clear !!

frazzledhome

kowtow wrote: »

Ah yes

But dairy land in Ireland comes complete with a "family farmer" who is prepared to work it for nothing, so it appears much more profitable than it is. Hence the price.

Ironic, isn't it, that by working away for nothing we're instantly upping the price of the additional land which our children are going to need to buy to remain efficient.

Where are these farmers who work for nothing? I'm certainly not one and don't know any

keep going

jaymla627 wrote: »

True too, you'd have to question the irish dairying model and the value being put on land etc, when you look around the rest of world in key dairying regions where a fraction of the value is attributed to it.
100 acres of extremely poor ground that's on a floodplain went for 700,000 grand near us recently to bounding dairy farmer who also took on a long term lease the 80 acres beside it that's in worse nick and is spending a small fortune reclaiming/draining it, what sense could be made of a investment like that when running 300-400 cow units can be bought worldwide for less in areas where their is actually a liquid market demand for milk and not solely reliant on trading on the commodity market

You are 100%right about the value of land in ireland but to add a bit of perspective, to buy a house in dublin could cost you 700k whereas you can buy a house in longford-bigger house with more room around it for 150k and not 100 miles away so you can sey up a dairy operation in alot of countries which makes more sense but do yuo want to live there

farmerjj

frazzledhome wrote: »

Where are these farmers who work for nothing? I'm certainly not one and don't know any

+1

farming93

tomwaterford wrote: »

WTF do your mates work at...I'm qualified with several years qualified experience and I don't make 600 gross no mind net
Are they lying to you perhaps??


Though I won't bring this tread (interesting aswell btw) down to a complete brawl by saying what my father/uncles advised me about working for farmers when I leaving school (I come from a loooong line of farm labourers)

Nope they"re good friends Ive seen their payslips. If the right apprenticship comes up there is good money in it.

farming93

tomwaterford wrote: »

WTF do your mates work at...I'm qualified with several years qualified experience and I don't make 600 gross no mind net
Are they lying to you perhaps??


Though I won't bring this tread (interesting aswell btw) down to a complete brawl by saying what my father/uncles advised me about working for farmers when I leaving school (I come from a loooong line of farm labourers)

Nope they"re good friends Ive seen their payslips. If the right apprenticship comes up there is good money in it.

kowtow

frazzledhome wrote:

Where are these farmers who work for nothing? I'm certainly not one and don't know any

I'm sure you aren't one of them, but I suspect there are a fair few working full time on 100 acres for less than an annual average of €70k.

Perhaps I'm wrong.

Dawggone

frazzledhome wrote: »

Where are these farmers who work for nothing? I'm certainly not one and don't know any

It's well documented Frazz.

tomwaterford

farming93 wrote: »

Nope they"re good friends Ive seen their payslips. If the right apprenticship comes up there is good money in it.

Here's the kicker though...well for mechanics at least usually the best paying (bus eireann/Dublin bus etc)...are in many places the worst for actual practical experience :pac:

F.D

visatorro wrote: »

dare I say it but would robots be an answer to your problems. if you took milkin away from daily routine you'd have loads of time!!! sure if the salesman says they work,,,, they wouldn't lie

I find it hard to believe it took 70 posts before this was mentioned and it hardly got a look in since
surly its something every farmer should consider is some form of automation to do the repetitive jobs. especially if you are considering hiring someone

ruben37

Have to say never read so many negative thoughts/comments regarding hiring employees in the farming industry. First of all We have never employed a full time employee all have been part time. To date we have had four different lads/men work for us, one had been here ten years, he retired and still calls to see the old man once or twice a year when he is in the area. The other was for five or six years he married and moved away, another very good worker never used a stick he always said the sight of a stick was enough. His younger brother worked for us over the summers when at collage for four years and then went to the states. The current guy came from a zero farming background, city guy who moved to the country. He only had to be shown how to do a thing once and about three months to become a very good at spotting cows in season. He loves the part time farming life now days, even bought his first calf of me early last year. I have never seen a guy so enthusiastic about a heifer coming up to mating age he has researched every easy calving bull in the country. I have Seen some real s**t going on in farms regarding employees, I have seen dogs treated better, is it any wonder no one wants to work in farming? Treat them right, fair, and teach them well and you wont go wrong!!! Seems to be lots around who expect the sun moon and the stars for little or nothing.

kerryjack

Plenty good married men with families out there that would love to take a job but it just wouldn't pay with the kind of money they get on dole and a farmer cant pay the kind of wages that would change that but thats the way it is there is FIS a top up by the department of social protected where a mans wages is toped up depending on how many kids they have he has to work a max of 20 hours a week this might suit both parties

Bullocks

kerryjack wrote: »

Plenty good married men with families out there that would love to take a job but it just wouldn't pay with the kind of money they get on dole and a farmer cant pay the kind of wages that would change that but thats the way it is there is FIS a top up by the department of social protected where a mans wages is toped up depending on how many kids they have he has to work a max of 20 hours a week this might suit both parties

Plenty of them haven't a notion of working until the kids are older , it's hard to beat being at home with the kids while being as comfortable as you would be if you were working and paying for childcare, travel costs and associated work costs.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Labour on Dairy Farms, a farm walk by Kerry.

Setting up low labour input dairy systems

Infrastructure to minimise labour demand.

Heard health and its impact on farm labour requirements.

Dealing with the spring peak workload.

On wed 28th in Ballyculleen Croom, Co. limerick on the farm of Aidan Liston.

Not sure if I'll make it myself but may interest a few with labour issues.

kowtow

There's an interesting cubicle shed in the Journal this week built for 270 cows, with talk of some operations at least being a one man operation.

I think whether we like it or not a great deal more emphasis has to be put on litres / labour unit / hectare if expanding farmers are to stand any chance of long term success. We're often dismissive of high output, indoor systems, while ignoring or concealing the labour & land costs in our own preferred outdoor systems, but actually that debate is comparing apples with oranges.

When land and labour are included and litres taken into account, I suspect the two competing systems are closer together than we imagine but surely there is also a long long way to go in terms of designing a truly efficient infrastructure for the grazed herd...

Leaving aside the obvious bottleneck of milking, and the pressure of spring calving, what are peoples feelings about the maximum number of cows one man (or woman) could manage, with everything perfectly set up?

Dawggone

kowtow wrote: »

There's an interesting cubicle shed in the Journal this week built for 270 cows, with talk of some operations at least being a one man operation.

I think whether we like it or not a great deal more emphasis has to be put on litres / labour unit / hectare if expanding farmers are to stand any chance of long term success. We're often dismissive of high output, indoor systems, while ignoring or concealing the labour & land costs in our own preferred outdoor systems, but actually that debate is comparing apples with oranges.

When land and labour are included and litres taken into account, I suspect the two competing systems are closer together than we imagine but surely there is also a long long way to go in terms of designing a truly efficient infrastructure for the grazed herd...

Leaving aside the obvious bottleneck of milking, and the pressure of spring calving, what are peoples feelings about the maximum number of cows one man (or woman) could manage, with everything perfectly set up?

Whatever you may think about labour efficiency with indoor systems Kowtow, it is one fast way to wreck a herd.
Also it is not possible on a grass based system. Very easily achieved in a climate suitable for maize. If you can invent a cow with the yield ability of the holstein and the hardiness of a xbred I'd definitely consider it.

kowtow

Dawggone wrote: »

Whatever you may think about labour efficiency with indoor systems Kowtow, it is one fast way to wreck a herd.
Also it is not possible on a grass based system. Very easily achieved in a climate suitable for maize. If you can invent a cow with the yield ability of the holstein and the hardiness of a xbred I'd definitely consider it.

It might not seem so, but actually I'm not at all convinced by indoor production (although in a purely financial sense I can see some merits)... like many I suspect I'm fascinated by the no-man's land inbetween two extremes - if intensive production, but with every blade of grass that can be grown used to it's full potential at the lowest possible cost.

What about pro-cross / 3 way bred cows? ( http://www.dairyxbred.com/author/jonlundgren/)

Dawggone

kowtow wrote: »

It might not seem so, but actually I'm not at all convinced by indoor production (although in a purely financial sense I can see some merits)... like many I suspect I'm fascinated by the no-man's land inbetween two extremes - if intensive production, but with every blade of grass that can be grown used to it's full potential at the lowest possible cost.

What about pro-cross / 3 way bred cows? ( http://www.dairyxbred.com/author/jonlundgren/)

Tried crossing Montys and Brunes into pure Hols.
The Monty cross had a leg on them like Dan Carter, and never stopped.
The Swiss Brown were a good cross but feet/fert/mobility were no better than Hols, annnnd the calves were as thick as bottled shyte. Got rid.

kowtow

Dawggone wrote: »

Tried crossing Montys and Brunes into pure Hols.
The Monty cross had a leg on them like Dan Carter, and never stopped.
The Swiss Brown were a good cross but feet/fert/mobility were no better than Hols, annnnd the calves were as thick as bottled shyte. Got rid.

Yeh.. I keep being tempted by Montys because of the casein, but others say they are a nightmare. Anyone who says different usually tries to sell me a bunch of them in the next sentence.

jaymla627

kowtow wrote: »

It might not seem so, but actually I'm not at all convinced by indoor production (although in a purely financial sense I can see some merits)... like many I suspect I'm fascinated by the no-man's land inbetween two extremes - if intensive production, but with every blade of grass that can be grown used to it's full potential at the lowest possible cost.

What about pro-cross / 3 way bred cows? ( http://www.dairyxbred.com/author/jonlundgren/)

Have a good few pro--cross 1st lactation cows here, and am using a lot of swedish red/jersey in my breeding plans, to get more of them into the herd, their unbelievable resiliant milky fertile cows, but you base cow if it's a holstein for instance needs to be well north of 200 kg for milk, and likewise when crossing back to holstein you need to be using really good milky sires that are excellent for type our you'll end up with some awful crosses with really bad udders

trixi2011

kowtow wrote: »

Yeh.. I keep being tempted by Montys because of the casein, but others say they are a nightmare. Anyone who says different usually tries to sell me a bunch of them in the next sentence.

we have some montys here there very quite bunch never give a bit of bother and quite milky 2

kowtow

trixi2011 wrote: »

we have some montys here there very quite bunch never give a bit of bother and quite milky 2

How much are you looking for?

trixi2011

kowtow wrote: »

How much are you looking for?

not for sale I would be thinking up to between6- 8 lactations now. also got quite a few jersey x monty as well they are right crackers of cows

Buford T. Justice XIX

Dawggone wrote: »

Tried crossing Montys and Brunes into pure Hols.
The Monty cross had a leg on them like Dan Carter, and never stopped.
The Swiss Brown were a good cross but feet/fert/mobility were no better than Hols, annnnd the calves were as thick as bottled shyte. Got rid.

+1, and made me laugh too:D

kowtow

trixi2011 wrote: »

not for sale I would be thinking up to between6- 8 lactations now. also got quite a few jersey x monty as well they are right crackers of cows

What are the MO calves like for beef?

keep going

But isnt a high ebi fr getting to be the right cow for the irish system

trixi2011

kowtow wrote: »

What are the MO calves like for beef?

To be honest im not sure all bulls shiped out of here witin a few days of birth .the fr× monty calves we had this year were good square blocks of calves im sure thry would be a good beef animal

frazzledhome

Dawggone wrote: »

Tried crossing Montys and Brunes into pure Hols.
The Monty cross had a leg on them like Dan Carter, and never stopped.
The Swiss Brown were a good cross but feet/fert/mobility were no better than Hols, annnnd the calves were as thick as bottled shyte. Got rid.

Lol

frazzledhome

keep going wrote: »

But isnt a high ebi fr getting to be the right cow for the irish system

I'm just not sure, if they aren't a lot of guys have backed the wrong horse. Race is on for first 450 EBI calf.

kowtow

frazzledhome wrote: »

I'm just not sure, if they aren't a lot of guys have backed the wrong horse. Race is on for first 450 EBI calf.

Can't put my finger on it but always worries me that mathematical breeding tends so much towards a - necessarily compromised - average that brilliant outliers capable of improving the stock might be overlooked.

Can see the economic sense of it right enough.

Dawggone

Hmmm breeding...
My father was quite the savant when it came to breeding. Tokyo Cups and 1000guineas and 2000guineas were in his cabinet...



Cows. I'll leave it to Stan to breed an 'Irish' cow for grazing grass from feb to nov.
I'm sceptical of ebi. It's just a formula for a grass based system. Suits a purpose. I disregard it.

I'm lazy. I'll take what the Yanks/Canadians/French/Dutch come up with.

My Dad always said that average to average gave you shyte, and that playing the popular to the popular left you without a line/direction...

I'm a sceptic.
Should I apologise?

jaymla627

Dawggone wrote: »

Hmmm breeding...
My father was quite the savant when it came to breeding. Tokyo Cups and 1000guineas and 2000guineas were in his cabinet...



Cows. I'll leave it to Stan to breed an 'Irish' cow for grazing grass from feb to nov.
I'm sceptical of ebi. It's just a formula for a grass based system. Suits a purpose. I disregard it.

I'm lazy. I'll take what the Yanks/Canadians/French/Dutch come up with.

My Dad always said that average to average gave you shyte, and that playing the popular to the popular left you without a line/direction...

I'm a sceptic.
Should I apologise?

Wouldnt even consider using 99% of the bulls irish ai companies have on offer and all you find in the flask here is scandanavin/english/american/ and Canadian bulls, find it hard to justify giving 20 euro a straw for genomic sires picked from random cows on the basis of a computer generated program when you add in the fact that oman is usually on both sides as the great grand-father too.
Find it amusing that if we are indeed reinventing the wheel here with high ebi sires why arent other countires beating down the door to get hold of irish genetics, lads putting down ebi solely as the reason for increased fertility in their herds are usually selling themselves short when they themselves through better managent/feeding have alot to do with it too

Dawggone

jaymla627 wrote: »

Wouldnt even consider using 99% of the bulls irish ai companies have on offer and all you find in the flask here is scandanavin/english/american/ and Canadian bulls, find it hard to justify giving 20 euro a straw for genomic sires picked from random cows on the basis of a computer generated program when you add in the fact that oman is usually on both sides as the great grand-father too.
Find it amusing that if we are indeed reinventing the wheel here with high ebi sires why arent other countires beating down the door to get hold of irish genetics, lads putting down ebi solely as the reason for increased fertility in their herds are usually selling themselves short when they themselves through better managent/feeding have alot to do with it too

Ah now Jay aren't the Brits/Welsh tripping over themselves for high EBI stock?
QED?

jaymla627

Dawggone wrote: »

Ah now Jay aren't the Brits/Welsh tripping over themselves for high EBI stock?
QED?

Certain groups of lads are for specific grass - based systems, the fact irish cows where selling even when imported 500-600 a head cheaper then locally sourced cows had alot to do with it also, the export market would of been no where near as hot only for the losses due to tb these guys are suffering, been on farms their where the rolling 3 year average for cows lost to tb was running at 25%, one guy had lost 500 cows in 3 years due to tb