Rent Missing for Landlord account

Cookie_Dough

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

I already suggested blacking out the euro amounts.

When I pay my rent, I put 'Name, Month, 'Rent' into the description/notation for the payment I make online. It makes it easy for the landlord to see we've paid on time and for which months rent the payment has been made.

Can you imagine if you had a few rental properties with people paying partial payments, late payments, different amounts for different addresses and totally random note like 'Rent' or 'John' in the description.

People can make this stuff easy on themselves or put themselves in the line of fire. The OP's being difficult when they're the one who will have a bigger problem to deal with. Show the statements and be done with it.

Yeah, I read your post and agreed with you regarding covering up the euro amounts :rolleyes:

How is the OP being difficult? The OP has offered to show the LL the redacted bank statements already, which would show dates and amounts paid (obviously assuming the OP leaves the rent and amounts and redacts everything else on statement). The OP has gone through their accounts and been in touch with their bank and had a consultation with a bank official to confirm payments.

Surely the LL would have some responsibility to show the rent was unpaid and missing? The LL is not co-operating with the OP and has not told the OP how much is missing and from what months. How the hell is the OP expected to respond to this? The landlord is the one making things difficult. The LL could have agreed to meet the OP at a time that suits both and went through the bank statements together but he has had the most over the top reaction, gone off at the deep end and issued an eviction notice to OP.

If I was being accused of owing 6 grand based on what somebody is telling me without actual proof there is no way I would be entertaining paying this!! Especially if my bank had already confirmed payments and I had provided my proof of payment. LL hasn't even had the decency to tell the OP which months rent are short and by how much.

BreadnBuddha

desertcircus wrote: »

Because if the OP has a monthly savings amount of 300 quid, the landlord will conveniently increase the rent by 300 a month.

Cross out the values, but leave the line item descriptions. I explained this. It's simple.

Is this place full of folks who wear tinfoil hats and shoes with velcro instead of laces or something?

FAILSAFE 00

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Yeah, because a statement of outgoing payments doesn't show whether they came back. SEPA payment slips, customised debit statements, whatever. The LL wants to see a bank statement. Bank statements all look the same. They show all the credits and debits. It's a common document and he can very quickly see the payments made and that they haven't returned to the OP's account. That's all he asked for at the start so why not just show him the bloody thing and be done with it!

Quite frankly a landlord that produces a spreadsheet as proof of money not received is not going to except anything the OP hands over from the bank. Not even if Jesus prepared the statements in the bank.

You show him one thing and he'll have a issue with it and so on.

Cookie_Dough

desertcircus wrote: »

Because if the OP has a monthly savings amount of 300 quid, the landlord will conveniently increase the rent by 300 a month.

That's exactly what I think LL is fishing for esp as OP said rent was never raised since moving in 18mths ago.

Perhaps LL knows that he can get a higher rent and if he sees bank statements and the OP has monies left over he will hike the rent.

BreadnBuddha

If my landlord thought I owed him over 6 grand in rent, I'd be falling over myself to show him my bank statements so he could see I paid it and it didn't come back to me as a misrouted or dud transfer.

Everything else is just getting uppity when there's no need if everything else is fine and dandy between the landlord and the tenant.

Exclamation Marc

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

If my landlord thought I owed him over 6 grand in rent, I'd be falling over myself to show him my bank statements so he could see I paid it and it didn't come back to me as a misrouted or dud transfer.

Everything else is just getting uppity when there's no need if everything else is fine and dandy between the landlord and the tenant.

If I had proof I paid my landlord that 6k, what business is it of his what I spend my money on. If it's a problem at his end, then it's his problem. And really, who takes 6 months to realise they haven't been receiving rent?? it's not being uppity, it's a matter of what right does the landlord have to monitor or view someone's outgoings. If the landlord was acting appropriately and reasonably, there might be scope to be a bit more permitting but he's being a total tyrant so why bend over to his frankly unreasonable and inappropriate demands.

He's sending self-made spreadsheets as proof of non payment, do you really think sending unredacted bank statements will be the end of
It?

rawn

Re: the landlords spreadsheets, I'm with ulster bank and if i want to download and print my transactions it does so in a spreadsheet format. Yes these can be edited too, but it would explain why the LL has a spreadsheet rather than an official statement.

Lemming

rawn wrote: »

Re: the landlords spreadsheets, I'm with ulster bank and if i want to download and print my transactions it does so in a spreadsheet format. Yes these can be edited too, but it would explain why the LL has a spreadsheet rather than an official statement.

And if you handed said spreadsheet to any financial institution for whatever reason as "proof" of anything, they'd refuse it and ask for official headed copies. There is absolutely nothing to stop the LL doctoring or otherwise falsifying a spreadsheet,and more to the point, no means of verifying its authenticity other than on his word.


Edit: as for people saying "shurrre what's the harm ins howing your full bank statements"; It's none of the LL's fvcking business what other transactions the OP has, and to be perfectly frank it's a massive overreach and amounts to an attempt at blatant breach of privacy.

BreadnBuddha

Manufactured Miracle wrote: »

If I had proof I paid my landlord that 6k, what business is it of his what I spend my money on. If it's a problem at his end, then it's his problem. And really, who takes 6 months to realise they haven't been receiving rent?? it's not being uppity, it's a matter of what right does the landlord have to monitor or view someone's outgoings. If the landlord was acting appropriately and reasonably, there might be scope to be a bit more permitting but he's being a total tyrant so why bend over to his frankly unreasonable and inappropriate demands.

He's sending self-made spreadsheets as proof of non payment, do you really think sending unredacted bank statements will be the end of
It?

He doesn't care what you spend your money on, as long as you pay your rent.

It's a simple concept. Show him that it went to his account and didn't bounce back. Nice and simple, no?

Don't complicate a simple thing. Show it was paid into his account and you're done.

The spreadsheet, well, that's just his list of payments he knows you made. If he has gaps, fill them in for him in a credible and easy to understand way. Bank statements, with descriptions shown, does just that.

Anything else is just getting in the way of a quick resolution to the misunderstanding. As it stands it looks like the LL has allocated the OP's payments to another tenant or property, where that tenant (perhaps already gone) has been credited and the OP is the one who can prove it to be the case if they just co-operated instead of being 'secretive'.

NotInventedHere

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

He doesn't care what you spend your money on, as long as you pay your rent.

It's a simple concept. Show him that it went to his account and didn't bounce back. Nice and simple, no?

Don't complicate a simple thing. Show it was paid into his account and you're done.

The spreadsheet, well, that's just his list of payments he knows you made. If he has gaps, fill them in for him in a credible and easy to understand way. Bank statements, with descriptions shown, does just that.

Anything else is just getting in the way of a quick resolution to the misunderstanding. As it stands it looks like the LL has allocated the OP's payments to another tenant or property, where that tenant (perhaps already gone) has been credited and the OP is the one who can prove it to be the case if they just co-operated instead of being 'secretive'.

Under no circumstances give this chancer anything. especially your unredacted bank statements. Let the prtb deal with it. Also get a new house

rawn

Lemming wrote: »

And if you handed said spreadsheet to any financial institution for whatever reason as "proof" of anything, they'd refuse it and ask for official headed copies. There is absolutely nothing to stop the LL doctoring or otherwise falsifying a spreadsheet,and more to the point, no means of verifying its authenticity other than on his word.


Edit: as for people saying "shurrre what's the harm ins howing your full bank statements"; It's none of the LL's fvcking business what other transactions the OP has, and to be perfectly frank it's a massive overreach and amounts to an attempt at blatant breach of privacy.

I realise this, I was merely providing a reason for why he would have it on a spreadsheet. The program for downloading statements would have generated it, not the landlord typing one of from scratch on Excel.

ConfusedNow13

Thanks everyone. I've forwarded everything on go the PRTB. I called to the bank who went over it all with me again however they will not write a letter stating anything as statements are the standing of your account. So I have to either email the LL of just leave it. If it was as simple as her a new place I would. It's a rather large investment & ive not done wrong. As for the I redacted statements the bank this morning advised against that as it is a data and privacy issue. I can't provide anything more and this whole thing is making me sick.

I don't care what's going on or how much hassle it is there is no way on earth I would show a LL and unredacted statement. In almost any other circumstance Id refuse to even show a redacted statement but in this case I would show a redacted one as its really the best way to solve it.

There is no way any LL would be allowed to see the comings and goings of my back account as I consider them highly confidential.

Exclamation Marc

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

He doesn't care what you spend your money on, as long as you pay your rent.

It's a simple concept. Show him that it went to his account and didn't bounce back. Nice and simple, no?

Don't complicate a simple thing. Show it was paid into his account and you're done.

The spreadsheet, well, that's just his list of payments he knows you made. If he has gaps, fill them in for him in a credible and easy to understand way. Bank statements, with descriptions shown, does just that.

Anything else is just getting in the way of a quick resolution to the misunderstanding. As it stands it looks like the LL has allocated the OP's payments to another tenant or property, where that tenant (perhaps already gone) has been credited and the OP is the one who can prove it to be the case if they just co-operated instead of being 'secretive'.

This is an incredibly naive response given the landlord in question. It's quite clear this landlord is a tyrant, do you think there is no possibility he'll look at a bank statement and go 'hmmmm this guy gets paid 3k a month, rent is 1k, I can definitely pop the rent up by 200 as this guy can afford it and he's desperate to stay'?

And as I said before, do you think unredacted statements will be the end of it?

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Cross out the values, but leave the line item descriptions. I explained this. It's simple.

Is this place full of folks who wear tinfoil hats and shoes with velcro instead of laces or something?

His bank statement is of no concern to anyone else. The only thing he's obliged to show his landlord is the dates the payment was made. If the landlord can't comphrend that then he needs to go see someone in his bank to help him.

BreadnBuddha

LexieOnRale wrote: »

His bank statement is of no concern to anyone else. The only thing he's obliged to show his landlord is the dates the payment was made. If the landlord can't comphrend that then he needs to go see someone in his bank to help him.

Obliged to show?

Not obliged to show anything.

Landlord's not obliged to show him anything either, or to take the OP at his word that he paid the rent.

OP can stand firm and lose, or give a little ground for a lot of peace, if it's not too late already.

He sure as hell better hope those payments were made correctly and on time though. If not, he's made his bed and that landlord would be bloody right to make him lay in it.

If the landlord goes off and gets proof positive from his bank that the payments weren't made, where's the OP going to be then?

On his ear I suspect.

BreadnBuddha

Manufactured Miracle wrote: »

This is an incredibly naive response given the landlord in question. It's quite clear this landlord is a tyrant, do you think there is no possibility he'll look at a bank statement and go 'hmmmm this guy gets paid 3k a month, rent is 1k, I can definitely pop the rent up by 200 as this guy can afford it and he's desperate to stay'?

And as I said before, do you think unredacted statements will be the end of it?

Naive? Would you ever get a grip on yourself and read the bloody post. I said, repeatedly, hide the values, but show the payee/payer, so he can see clearly that none of the credits to the OP's account are in effect bounced payments.

Paranoia getting in the way of common sense here I think.

ConfusedNow13

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Obliged to show?

Not obliged to show anything.

Landlord's not obliged to show him anything either, or to take the OP at his word that he paid the rent.

OP can stand firm and lose, or give a little ground for a lot of peace, if it's not too late already.

He sure as hell better hope those payments were made correctly and on time though. If not, he's made his bed and that landlord would be bloody right to make him lay in it.

If the landlord goes off and gets proof positive from his bank that the payments weren't made, where's the OP going to be then?

On his ear I suspect.

The statements have been provided to the LL and the LL said the bank said to get a letter thats the LL bank mind. So I went to my bank showed the email and asked for a letter. The branch manager politely explained to me that they would not and could not to that. As it is not policy. I have refered to the PTRB. If and this is a big IF the money is missing then I will be calling the gardi as my bank statement shows it gone and its not in his.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Obliged to show?

Not obliged to show anything.

Landlord's not obliged to show him anything either, or to take the OP at his word that he paid the rent.

OP can stand firm and lose, or give a little ground for a lot of peace, if it's not too late already.

He sure as hell better hope those payments were made correctly and on time though. If not, he's made his bed and that landlord would be bloody right to make him lay in it.

If the landlord goes off and gets proof positive from his bank that the payments weren't made, where's the OP going to be then?

On his ear I suspect.

Wtf?
The landlord is the one ENTIRELY in the wrong. He has accused a tenant who's been paying his rent and has seemingly no previous issues, of being in excess of 6k in debt.
The OP, showing good will, has produced documentation to prove otherwise.
The onus is now on the landlord to back up his accusations.
He is not entitled access to anyone's highly confidential bank statements. He is not doing the tenant any favours by letting him live in his property. It is purely business, and if he is going around making accusations and alarming demands for money in the region of 6K, he needs to back these statements up with actual proof rather than with his own spreadsheet. As far as I am aware too, making alarming demands for money not owed is actually a criminal offence.

Clearlier

ConfusedNow13 wrote: »

The statements have been provided to the LL and the LL said the bank said to get a letter thats the LL bank mind. So I went to my bank showed the email and asked for a letter. The branch manager politely explained to me that they would not and could not to that. As it is not policy. I have refered to the PTRB. If and this is a big IF the money is missing then I will be calling the gardi as my bank statement shows it gone and its not in his.

If his bank want a letter then they must be ok with writing letters so why don't you ask him to ask them for a letter confirming that they have not received any payment from your account? Edit: or better still ask them to write a letter stating the payments that have been received from your account.

If you can satisfy yourself that he hasn't actually received the money then you can raise a complaint with your bank to the effect that you made an order for payment which they didn't carry out correctly.

I get that you're unhappy with the LL but if it does turn out that he hasn't received the money then it is your fault even if it's due to the bank screwing up.

BreadnBuddha

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Wtf?
The landlord is the one ENTIRELY in the wrong. He has accused a tenant who's been paying his rent and has seemingly no previous issues, of being in excess of 6k in debt.
The OP, showing good will, has produced documentation to prove otherwise.
The onus is now on the landlord to back up his accusations.
He is not entitled access to anyone's highly confidential bank statements. He is not doing the tenant any favours by letting him live in his property. It is purely business, and if he is going around making accusations and alarming demands for money in the region of 6K, he needs to back these statements up with actual proof rather than with his own spreadsheet. As far as I am aware too, making alarming demands for money not owed is actually a criminal offence.

Well, let's put it this way. The landlord, if the OP is absolutely 100% certain that the money was actually paid into the landlords account, is wrong.

The OP is the one who is absolutely responsible for paying the rent on time, and until it's received by the landlord, showing a positive credit to his bank account, it's not considered to have been paid.

That's the fact.

So, if the landlord says he can't see several payments, who's right and who's wrong?

The simplest way for the OP to have re-established trust or eliminated a doubt would have been to cross out euro values on his statements and give the landlord a quick looksee.

Self righteous indignation and paranoia suggests the OP stick to his guns, but all that's doing is creating a dirty big chunk of G.F.Y. in the landlords head.

He's trying to track down what the hell's happened to 6 grand missing from his account. It's not pocket change. The OP could have put himself beyond reproach quickly, totally ruling out another moments hassle or worry.

But the internet prevails and people are up in arms. For right or wrong, to hell with common sense, yeah? Yeah.

njs030

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Naive? Would you ever get a grip on yourself and read the bloody post. I said, repeatedly, hide the values, but show the payee/payer, so he can see clearly that none of the credits to the OP's account are in effect bounced payments.

Paranoia getting in the way of common sense here I think.

The op quite likely doesn't want the landlord seeing their private outgoings. I wouldn't like them seeing how often I bought makeup or clothes or takeaways even if it didn't show the amount!!

Op has shown proof of payment, it's up to the landlord to prove he didn't receive it.

The prtb aren't going to accept a spreadsheet without proof from the bank so the landlord will eventually have to show the bank statements.

Kalimah

I would love to see the redacted statement OP. I worked for one of the main banks for a number of years so have a good handle on statements.
First can I ask what months rent the landlord is missing?
Second the details on your statement should be exactly the same for each payment presuming you have used saved details from the beginning ie Joe Bloggs A/C ******180. I know with Aib the account number is redacted except for the last three digits.
My own take on it is that the landlord is financially incompetent if he wasn't on top of missing rent from a very early stage.
To be doubly sure check credits to your account a few days after the rent payment to see that the money hasn't bounced back to you.
Mind you I can't really see that as a scenario. Who among us would not realise we had 6k extra in our account?

Exclamation Marc

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

Naive? Would you ever get a grip on yourself and read the bloody post. I said, repeatedly, hide the values, but show the payee/payer, so he can see clearly that none of the credits to the OP's account are in effect bounced payments.

Paranoia getting in the way of common sense here I think.

Paranoia? It's nothing to do with paranoia. What business is it of a landlord what someone spends their money on. I've read the post and the entire thread, OP has provided proof that payments have been sent to the landlords bank. Provided that the OP can show the payments are being sent to the correct account, it's the landlords problem. If the money has not rebounded into the OPs account (which I'm fairly sure he would have noticed), it's not up to the OP to sort out the landlords banking issues, especially given the hostility shown towards him.

Exclamation Marc

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

He's trying to track down what the hell's happened to 6 grand missing from his account. It's not pocket change. The OP could have put himself beyond reproach quickly, totally ruling out another moments hassle or worry.

OP has done all that is reasonable. He's gone to his bank and gotten proof that payments have been sent. He's not the landlords accountant.

Clearlier

Manufactured Miracle wrote: »

Provided that the OP can show the payments are being sent to the correct account, it's the landlords problem.

That's not necessarily the case. If the OP's bank has made a mistake and sent the money to the wrong account (not that likely but then none of this is likely) then it is the OP's problem.

Exclamation Marc

Clearlier wrote: »

That's not necessarily the case. If the OP's bank has made a mistake and sent the money to the wrong account (not that likely but then none of this is likely) then it is the OP's problem.

It's not. It's a bank problem. Yes it's the OPs bank but it's not the OPs mistake. And surely some liability attaches to the landlord for taking half a year to notice the problem. If I'm sending someone payments monthly and for six months they never say a word, I think I'd be in my rights to assume the payments are being received. The landlord can hardly take it out on someone who's followed their instruction to a T for half a year.

Certainly id help out but if I've done everything correctly at my end and the landlord is hostile towards me, it somewhat lowers how much I'll bend to it. The landlord is sending eviction notices and appearing outside the property; hard to have compassion for someone who acts like that.

BreadnBuddha

Manufactured Miracle wrote: »

...And surely some liability attaches to the landlord for taking half a year to notice the problem. If I'm sending someone payments monthly and for six months they never say a word, I think I'd be in my rights to assume the payments are being received....

Wrong. No liability attaches to the landlord for taking time to realise rent appears to be missing. The OP doesn't have a receipt for payment to the landlords account.

Without a receipt for lodgement to the landlords bank account, not just for payment being sent, the onus is actually on the OP to support his claim that the payment was successfully made into the landlords account.

If you want to have a cast iron way to show the payment was actually made, you make the lodgement in a branch of their bank and keep the lodgement slip as your receipt.

Otherwise it's all down to the vagaries of transfers between banks in Ireland, which is crap anyway.

It's also the OP's fault for not getting rent receipts from the landlord each month. The OP shares the blame for poor book-keeping here. Get a receipt in future.

EnergyBlaster

BreadnBuddha wrote: »

He doesn't care what you spend your money on, as long as you pay your rent.

It's a simple concept. Show him that it went to his account and didn't bounce back. Nice and simple, no?

Don't complicate a simple thing. Show it was paid into his account and you're done.

The spreadsheet, well, that's just his list of payments he knows you made. If he has gaps, fill them in for him in a credible and easy to understand way. Bank statements, with descriptions shown, does just that.

Anything else is just getting in the way of a quick resolution to the misunderstanding. As it stands it looks like the LL has allocated the OP's payments to another tenant or property, where that tenant (perhaps already gone) has been credited and the OP is the one who can prove it to be the case if they just co-operated instead of being 'secretive'.

Yep He might as well become the LL personal assistant!!

Clearlier

Manufactured Miracle wrote: »

It's not. It's a bank problem. Yes it's the OPs bank but it's not the OPs mistake. And surely some liability attaches to the landlord for taking half a year to notice the problem. If I'm sending someone payments monthly and for six months they never say a word, I think I'd be in my rights to assume the payments are being received. The landlord can hardly take it out on someone who's followed their instruction to a T for half a year.

Certainly id help out but if I've done everything correctly at my end and the landlord is hostile towards me, it somewhat lowers how much I'll bend to it. The landlord is sending eviction notices and appearing outside the property; hard to have compassion for someone who acts like that.

I agree it's all a bit odd and unlikely however in the unlikely event that the OP's bank has screwed up it is most certainly the OP's problem. The bank will have a problem with the OP and the OP will have a problem with the LL but the bank will not have a problem with the LL. If the OP's bank screwed up then it makes no difference to the amount of money paid to the LL and the OP would still be on the hook for that money.

In any case it doesn't sound like the OP or the LL are for budging here in terms of the information that they provide each other but perhaps they could agree to someone in the PRTB reviewing their respective bank statements and if necessary recommend an appropriate course of action.