Daughter sent home from pre-school for the second time

eviltwin

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

That's true but she was fine last year according to the OP. And she's had two big changes, a new sibling & teacher. The latter doesn't sound best equipped to deal with behaviours!

Yeah she's had a lot of upheaval and I'm not trying to diagnose her child as anything, it could just be the changes in her family, it's a lot for a little kid to deal with

Flippyfloppy

eviltwin wrote: »

Yeah she's had a lot of upheaval and I'm not trying to diagnose her child as anything, it could just be the changes in her family, it's a lot for a little kid to deal with

I completely get that if there is any chance an assessment should be got as soon as possible.

zeffabelli

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

That's true but she was fine last year according to the OP. And she's had two big changes, a new sibling & teacher. The latter doesn't sound best equipped to deal with behaviours!

Yes and while adjusting to change is difficult for most of us, it's exceptionally difficult for aspies.

Also eccentricities start becoming more apparent with age, no point basing this year on last year, new situation, neurology has changed too.

It's just something to consider, may not be neurological at all, but it's good rule out organic sources.

Flippyfloppy

Say for example a child did present with aspergers, (imo there is nothing to suggest this child actually fits that profile) sending them home is no good. It's apparent that the school cannot deal with her behaviours. They need to find a way other than just her sent home early. No one is learning here, child or teacher. It doesn't sound like a positive relationship is being fostered at all!

volchitsa

zeffabelli wrote: »

Yes and while adjusting to change is difficult for most of us, it's exceptionally difficult for aspies.

Also eccentricities start becoming more apparent with age, no point basing this year on last year, new situation, neurology has changed too.

It's just something to consider, may not be neurological at all, but it's good rule out organic sources.

Yes agreed, and also, if you have a sympathetic doctor I find an objective third person view of the child can be really helpful, whether to reassure you that there's nothing fundamentally wrong or to ensure that no other possible cause is being ignored.

Obviously that depends on having someone available who is helpful rather than judgmental, but it's worth thinking about IMO. Because there could even be something totally different, non neurological, that might be stressing her out in playgroup - I'm thinking of maybe hearing problems or all sorts of things that may be easily dealt with but could make being in a group stressful for her.

Unlikely I think - but you never know.

_Whimsical_

itsasecret wrote: »

I'm more then happy to take the blame but it does not solve my problem. Reward chart is up and running but got third phone call today. My daughter refused to go up the stairs this morning. My husband did not hug her goodbye, he did wave and blow kisses and this error just put a whole stop to her cooperation. (She was not upset just refused to go upstairs) To be fair Playschool were great, I arrived ..carried her upstairs and hugged her and she was then fine.
I just wish I could help her and I guess Playschool deal with her moods.

I really wouldn't be in a rush to be diagnosing her with anything based on comments online. She's very young and the trouble seems to be largely confined to playschool and since big upheaval in her life.

Your comments above make me wonder if she's feeling more insecure than you realise but it's showing itself in strange ways. Maybe on this occasion she was just demanding her due of love and affection in light of a change at home that might see her getting less attention. I think lots of children would struggle to deal with a change at home and at school. The new teacher sounds a little less than confident in her abilities to handle things, your child could be picking up on this too and it may be making her less secure at school.

Neyite

It can also be a phase. My lad the same age has attended the same creche for 2.5 years now, and loves it. But every so often, he baulks at wanting to go or gets upset or clingy at drop off time. It usually coincides with either a new room /routine or new teachers and settles down after a while.

We are currently going through a phase, but he's just moved into the ECCE class so there are a lot of new faces amongst his peers, and a new room (but new toys, yay!) and new teachers.

Funnily enough OP, my next door neighbours 4 yo boy recently started his ECCE year - he'd previously been minded by his parents in the home, and the teacher was quite harsh to my neighbour on day 3 after a total of 15 playschool hours, implying that he had behavioural issues and was disruptive and uncontrollable in her classroom. NDN was very upset, got worried about ASD and the like, so I said I'd run the scenario past my son's teachers and get a fellow childcare workers take on it. Our teacher was shocked tbh - she more or less confirmed what I had said to NDN - that her boy just needed time to settle in, he was probably giddy and not obeying because of all the new toys /kids and a new environment. She said it was the job of the CC worker to gently teach behaviour expectations, playing nicely with each other and all that, and the whole point of the government funding was to introduce a classroom type environment to children to prepare them for big school. She said she expected that it can take up to a month for some children to settle in fully. All normal.

So I'm kind of in agreement with those that think that the crèche are bailing on you here. I've never been called to take my child home because of behaviour, only ever because of illness. And I'm pretty sure that he's not always as angelic as my imagination would suggest. He was in a room with a biter, and on three different occasions we've been informed and signed the incident report - but the child was never sent home, and the crèche explained that they just keep teaching good behaviour until it clicks. Hitting, biting and tantrums is all part of growing up at that age and its our job as parents and teachers to keep teaching our kids other ways to vent their frustration and that can take time. Biter and my lad are best buddies these days, for what its worth.

pancuronium

Really.... Sent home.... I'd be naming this pre_school as a warning to others and changing to somewhere else... Their job is to control the situation and deal with it not call the parents to come collect to me it shows inexperience and little or no profesionalism on thir part. I know you don't want to upset the child and it's hard on you too but sometimes you have to be hard to be kind....... that's just my 2 pence worth and I didn't read all other posts just ops comment.

Mary63

I would ring a parent if any child was screaming in my house for over an hour,what are the playschool staff to do.
Why are badly behaved children always called headstrong and they are always clever too and bored in playschool.
I cant understand either why OP wouldnt just keep her child at home,she is getting nothing out of playschool and to be called in because she wouldnt go into the school is barmey.I cant believe her mother drove in after her and carried a big four year old anywhere.
I would expect an under two year old to be upset by the arrival of a new baby but not a four year old and the baby is three months old now.
Most four year olds wouldnt respond with"go on so"if threatened that their parents would be called,this is very defiant for a four year old,what will she be like at six.

_Whimsical_

Neyite wrote: »

It can also be a phase. My lad the same age has attended the same creche for 2.5 years now, and loves it. But every so often, he baulks at wanting to go or gets upset or clingy at drop off time. It usually coincides with either a new room /routine or new teachers and settles down after a while.

We are currently going through a phase, but he's just moved into the ECCE class so there are a lot of new faces amongst his peers, and a new room (but new toys, yay!) and new teachers.

Funnily enough OP, my next door neighbours 4 yo boy recently started his ECCE year - he'd previously been minded by his parents in the home, and the teacher was quite harsh to my neighbour on day 3 after a total of 15 playschool hours, implying that he had behavioural issues and was disruptive and uncontrollable in her classroom. NDN was very upset, got worried about ASD and the like, so I said I'd run the scenario past my son's teachers and get a fellow childcare workers take on it. Our teacher was shocked tbh - she more or less confirmed what I had said to NDN - that her boy just needed time to settle in, he was probably giddy and not obeying because of all the new toys /kids and a new environment. She said it was the job of the CC worker to gently teach behaviour expectations, playing nicely with each other and all that, and the whole point of the government funding was to introduce a classroom type environment to children to prepare them for big school. She said she expected that it can take up to a month for some children to settle in fully. All normal.

So I'm kind of in agreement with those that think that the crèche are bailing on you here. I've never been called to take my child home because of behaviour, only ever because of illness. And I'm pretty sure that he's not always as angelic as my imagination would suggest. He was in a room with a biter, and on three different occasions we've been informed and signed the incident report - but the child was never sent home, and the crèche explained that they just keep teaching good behaviour until it clicks. Hitting, biting and tantrums is all part of growing up at that age and its our job as parents and teachers to keep teaching our kids other ways to vent their frustration and that can take time. Biter and my lad are best buddies these days, for what its worth.

Yes this is so true,children do absolutely go through phases,their brains and subsequently their capacity to cope are changing all the time,this months terror is next month's walk in the park. My cousins little girl had a lot of trouble at playschool,crying everyday,talking to no one. She seemed like she was going to have ongoing trouble through her life,was terrified of everything from germs to people looking at her,strangers,you name it.They had to take her out of play school altogether and leave her with her granny because she wouldn't settle with anyone. Fast forward a year and she started primary school with no trouble,loved it from day one,fears and troubles melted away in the light of the excitement of new friends. She is 8 now,goes to all sorts of clubs and after school activities,has parties every Saturday,never has had a bother since those years between 3 and 5.
Give your little girl a few months to adjust,every parent will go through a rocky phase with a child at some point,don't be embarrassed by her behavior at all. She'll come through it, don't be driving yourself mad thinking about conditions she most likely does not have, be confident that she'll be fine in time and she'll sense that from you.

Flippyfloppy

Mary63 wrote: »

I would ring a parent if any child was screaming in my house for over an hour,what are the playschool staff to do.
Why are badly behaved children always called headstrong and they are always clever too and bored in playschool.
I cant understand either why OP wouldnt just keep her child at home,she is getting nothing out of playschool and to be called in because she wouldnt go into the school is barmey.I cant believe her mother drove in after her and carried a big four year old anywhere.
I would expect an under two year old to be upset by the arrival of a new baby but not a four year old and the baby is three months old now.
Most four year olds wouldnt respond with"go on so"if threatened that their parents would be called,this is very defiant for a four year old,what will she be like at six.

As far as I knew it is well known that four year olds in particular find newborn baby siblings difficult to adjust to.

Also wasn't there a stand off about sitting on a chair rather than her just screaming for an hour?

SMCG

Hi there, there's a lot of posts here and I will mention one thing I didn't see scanning them. The new staff member may not actually be being nice to your daughter. Children - even verbal ones (in fact some adults I know too!) - sometimes cannot communicate complex situations especially ones that they know will stir up a hornets nest.

The thing is, behaviour is communication. For babies, for kids, for grown ups. People can say what they like but you believe how they act when the words and behaviour don't match up. Your daughter is saying she wants to go in but once she is there she is difficult, defiant, agressive, angry. These behaviours often stem from bad feelings like rejection, jealousy, perceived unfairness, anger. You will only hear about these things if you spend some time with her on her own, and honestly ask her how things are going. She may not even tell you then and there, however knowing the communication lines are open without blame or anger may help her open up if this is the problem.

Alternately you can pop in unexpectedly (to drop a forgotten lunch box or such) and see if you can do some observing or over hearing. Even a harsh tone of voice can betray some negative treatment.

Of course I could be completely wrong. It's worth considering though. Good luck

Qualitymark

Yes. While we all have to be careful of the "my little one is a saint" syndrome, there's also the point that the OP's daughter isn't the one with the power here. It's why I was suggesting maybe taking a little break, then starting her in a different playschool.

itsasecret

Thanks again everyone. I have been thinking a lot about it. The truth is my daughter is neither a saint or a devil. She is a 4 year old child. She is having a hard time with the stress of Preschool. It has effected her sleep and she has had nightmares. Preschool has also been having a hard time with the stress of her.

All I can think to do is keep bring her (I believe to not bring her would push the problem back till next year and school). Keep doing the reward chart. Try to get her to understand sometimes you just have to do what grown up says. And pray that they don't kick her out.

Mary63

They are very close to kicking her out if they rang you four minutes after she was dropped off,they definitely seem to have washed their hands off her and arent even interesting in coming up with a strategy with you.

I think they are hoping you will make the decision to take her out.

Have you an alternative place for your daughter,there is simply no point in leaving her where she is.

itsasecret

Not really but to be fair they did let her stay for the rest of the day. So they have not have totally washed their hands of her

eviltwin

itsasecret wrote: »

Not really but to be fair they did let her stay for the rest of the day. So they have not have totally washed their hands of her

You can't just leave it and hope things improve, you have to tackle it head on. It's now nearly October, any teething problems imo should be settling down or be gone completely. If things are so bad she is having nightmares about school I would find somewhere else. You don't want her to take that negativity about school into junior infants.

itsasecret

I don't agree, I think moving her would cause her so much more stress.

Flippyfloppy

itsasecret wrote: »

I don't agree, I think moving her would cause her so much more stress.

You should at least have a meeting with the school that you attend with no kids, find out if they have behaviour management in place, and if they have any plans to improve their relationship with your daughter. Because it sounds like nothing is being done about it, except them ringing you and your daughter getting 1:1 mammy time when you pick her up (which no doubt she's craving since new baby turned up)

You can do a reward chart all you want but giving of rewards should be immediate. There's no point in telling her she's not getting a star when she gets home, 3 hours after she's done something in school. (I assume that's what the reward chart is targeting- school behaviour)

Tbh rather than being stressful it sounds like your daughter would be relieved at the fresh start.

Qualitymark

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Tbh rather than being stressful it sounds like your daughter would be relieved at the fresh start.

Yes.

Sounds like a personality clash. It is also easy for one child to be identified as the "troublemaker", and anything that child does is landed on harder than when another child does it, and that child can get blamed for things it hasn't done, etc. Groupthink.

deathtocaptcha

The child isn't being respectful to the teachers or other kids around here, therefore it's an emotional intelligence issue...

They haven't learned their lesson, they don't care / aren't worried about the repercussions of their actions and if the child is physically bullying other children, then she needs professional counseling to help her learn to deal with her feelings and improve her social skills and emotional intelligence, before things get worse.

Flippyfloppy

Qualitymark wrote: »

Yes.

Sounds like a personality clash. It is also easy for one child to be identified as the "troublemaker", and anything that child does is landed on harder than when another child does it, and that child can get blamed for things it hasn't done, etc. Groupthink.

Exactly. The nightmares are concerning also. Do you know what they're about? Are they directly related to school? It sounds like she's under a lot of stress. I really don't think continuing this way is the answer. You, and the teachers are the adults here. You're the ones responsible for the child, and BOTH parties need to take action immediately!

Qualitymark

deathtocaptcha wrote: »

The child isn't being respectful to the teachers or other kids around here, therefore it's an emotional intelligence issue...

They haven't learned their lesson, they don't care / aren't worried about the repercussions of their actions and if the child is physically bullying other children, then she needs professional counseling to help her learn to deal with her feelings and improve her social skills and emotional intelligence, before things get worse.

Codswallop. She's four.

Mary63

It isnt really though just about your daughters stress,she is causing you stress,your husband stress,presumably your older child who never had trouble in playschool stress.she is causing the new staff member untold stress,ie screaming for an hour and throwing a jigsaw around.She is also causing the other children,some of whom may be timid a lot of stress too.Its not acceptable for a four year old going to school in a few months to throw anything in a rage,what if she throws something that could cause injury to another child.

The staff washed their hands off her when they rang you because they couldnt get her to go where she was supposed to go,they are effectively saying we cant discipline her so ring her parents and let them do it.This is disgraceful on their part because they are not getting your daughter ready for school which is one of the reasons you are paying them to provide a service.They simply dont care and are sitting the year out and then passing the problem onto whatever school your daughter is enrolled in.

We have all had a situation where older children have to adapt to the arrival of younger siblings and your baby is three months old.Your daughter at four should be secure enough to adapt after three months,her behaviour is very immature and for her sake you need to get a behaviour management in place before she goes to school.If there is even one incident of throwing anything across a room in Junior infants,of screaming or hitting a teacher your daughter will get a very bad name and once that happens it hard to remove it.

Please for her sake go into the school,stop the reward charts,she shouldnt be getting any reward for behaving properly,it should be expected of her.Get to the bottom of what is going on and ask the staff do they think an assessment of need should be done,it is no harm to check everything out.Have a look at her diet with the staff too and again ask for their advice.I am not sure if I would have any confidence in the staff but there might be someone there who has the training and the experience to offer advice.

Qualitymark

Mary63 wrote: »

her behaviour is very immature and for her sake you need to get a behaviour management in place

Sweet Jesus! I had two friends (one a national journalist, the other a lawyer) who didn't speak at all till five years old! Behaviour management! (One of these two also refused to eat anything but mashed potatoes; every evening her father would lovingly make her a pile of softly mashed potatoes with a knob of butter in the middle and feed it to her. She grew up to be a superb cook.)

pwurple

OP, is her sleep disturbed at all?

I know mine find it harder to control themselves when they are tired, and a new baby does upset a households sleep.

If you are waking her up in the morning for playschool, maybe let her sleep longer? Or maybe try an earlier bedtime.

LegacyUser

Qualitymark wrote: »

Codswallop. She's four.

I don't believe this is codswallop at all.

A child needs to know their boundaries. If they know they are getting away with something then they will likely continue to do it.

If she is naughty in pre school do you punish her at home? Yes a reward chart is great but kids react to immediate punishment.....no TV, no teddy, no treat etc. the child of course must know clearly why she is being punished.

I think (and I've discovered myself) that shouting at them achieves very little. A calm, measured but stern voice works well for me along with the relevant immediate punishment.

I also found that a bigger punishment such as not allowing her to go to a party she has been looking forward to works well. It's difficult but hopefully only needs to be done once

Based on the info here I also think the school should be handling this much better. But start with what you can control yourself.

I'm no expert, just giving my experience

Mary63

Your friends fads and refusal to speak didnt affect anyone else Qualitymark,this childs behaviour is affecting everyone around her and she wont be small for very long.She is learning that she can domineer adults into letting her have her way,her behaviour is so bad her playschool teacher is ringing her mother four minutes after she arrives on the premises.

I would like you to do that playschool teachers job for one morning and see how you get on.

Flippyfloppy

Mary63 wrote: »

Your friends fads and refusal to speak didnt affect anyone else Qualitymark,this childs behaviour is affecting everyone around her and she wont be small for very long.She is learning that she can domineer adults into letting her have her way,her behaviour is so bad her playschool teacher is ringing her mother four minutes after she arrives on the premises.

I would like you to do that playschool teachers job for one morning and see how you get on.

And who's behaviour is affecting this little girl? Because it's not coming out of thin air.

And for the record, I myself have dealt with children of different ages and abilities over the years and would never give up on a child, or behave as this school has.

eviltwin

Kids don't misbehave for fun, there is always a reason. OP and her preschool need to deal with the behaviour but also find the reason and deal with that. Unfortunately pre school staff only have basic training for the most part and are out of their depth with issues like this.