Daughter sent home from pre-school for the second time

zeffabelli

eviltwin wrote: »

Kids don't misbehave for fun, there is always a reason. OP and her preschool need to deal with the behaviour but also find the reason and deal with that. Unfortunately pre school staff only have basic training for the most part and are out of their depth with issues like this.

And find it before the shaming and punishment reaches in or there will much harder demons to fight later.

January

Just for comparison, when I collected my daughter today, the teacher pulled me aside and told me there had been a stand off today, that my daughter refused to go on the time out chair so she had been sent to another room for a few minutes and when she came back she apologized and life went on.

That is how I would expect a teacher to react to things like this, not phone calls telling me she is acting up. Doesn't help if I'm an hour out of the way doing something else.

Qualitymark

Parentoh wrote: »

If she is naughty in pre school do you punish her at home?
immediate punishment…
being punished…
the relevant immediate punishment…
I also found that a bigger punishment…

What an Irish post.

Mary63 wrote: »

She is learning that she can domineer adults into…

Four

Years

Old

Mary63

The playschool had to call her mother to come into the preschool Qualitymark to get the child to go to her classroom,she is at least five weeks going in and out of the premises and she knows the drill by now.Do you think its acceptable that the staff should have to ring all the parents when the other children see this child getting what she wants and do the same themselves.Her mother arrives and she is carried into the playschool like a baby,words fail me,I have never heard the like of it.

She is probably behaving very badly at home too,children dont generally behave in one situation and not the other,her mother did mention having a bad morning,this is probably the case most mornings.

Something needs to be done now and the message got through to this girl that the world doesnt revolve around you,better for her parents to teach her this than learn it the hard way in school.

zeffabelli

Mary63 wrote: »

The playschool had to call her mother to come into the preschool Qualitymark to get the child to go to her classroom,she is at least five weeks going in and out of the premises and she knows the drill by now.Do you think its acceptable that the staff should have to ring all the parents when the other children see this child getting what she wants and do the same themselves.Her mother arrives and she is carried into the playschool like a baby,words fail me,I have never heard the like of it.

She is probably behaving very badly at home too,children dont generally behave in one situation and not the other,her mother did mention having a bad morning,this is probably the case most mornings.

Something needs to be done now and the message got through to this girl that the world doesnt revolve around you,better for her parents to teach her this than learn it the hard way in school.

Behavior can be every context dependent, if you ever taken a look at humanity.

LegacyUser

Qualitymark wrote: »

What an Irish post.

So because I don't allow my kids to be too bold, that's a bad thing?

My kids are all under 9 and these days I very rarely need to punish them because they learned when I tried to nip things in the bud early days.

Yes I used the word punish. That's what it's called. The ratio of hugs and love to punishment I give my kids id estimate to be 200:1

What's your solution if punishment is too much of an Irish thing for you? Let the kids do whatever they want? we all can see how that works out

volchitsa

Mary63 wrote: »

The playschool had to call her mother to come into the preschool Qualitymark to get the child to go to her classroom,she is at least five weeks going in and out of the premises and she knows the drill by now.Do you think its acceptable that the staff should have to ring all the parents when the other children see this child getting what she wants and do the same themselves.Her mother arrives and she is carried into the playschool like a baby,words fail me,I have never heard the like of it.

She is probably behaving very badly at home too,children dont generally behave in one situation and not the other,her mother did mention having a bad morning,this is probably the case most mornings.

Something needs to be done now and the message got through to this girl that the world doesnt revolve around you,better for her parents to teach her this than learn it the hard way in school.

You've made a snap judgment about this situation which depends on you actually discounting some of what we've been told.

I'd say that alone makes your evaluation of the situation worthless. You could even be correct and that we are not hearing the whole story, but you really don't have the information to make that judgment. The fact that you have done, and are sticking to it so firmly, tells me that in fact you've decided that because of your own views about any sort of bold behaviour from other people's children, not because of what the OP has told us.

Mary63

We definitely arent hearing the whole story,I would guess the playschool staff have talked at length to OP about her daughters behaviour and of course as usual child is very bright,this is always thrown in very early on threads like this.its as if the rest of us who have civilised children must have children who are a bit dim.

Playschool staff have now between them decided child can do what she likes and her mother will be called everyday until childs behaviour improves or even better child is moved to another facility.Playschool staff are probably earning minimum wage and OPS child is too much trouble to deal with.

OP has said her daughter is headstrong and testing at home too,I am not making any snap judgments,she has been sent home from playschool twice,the behaviour is out of hand completely.

volchitsa

Mary63 wrote: »

We definitely arent hearing the whole story,I would guess the playschool staff have talked at length to OP about her daughters behaviour and of course as usual child is very bright,this is always thrown in very early on threads like this.its as if the rest of us who have civilised children must have children who are a bit dim.

Playschool staff have now between them decided child can do what she likes and her mother will be called everyday until childs behaviour improves or even better child is moved to another facility.Playschool staff are probably earning minimum wage and OPS child is too much trouble to deal with.

OP has said her daughter is headstrong and testing at home too,I am not making any snap judgments,she has been sent home from playschool twice,the behaviour is out of hand completely.

You know just about none of this. It's completely speculative.

Also, you started out by saying that the staff were specially trained to handle bad behaviour etc etc, which hasn't been my experience, as I said - and that's been confirmed by others : it's often very basic training, obviously. They're not even teachers, and I've seen lots of teachers make huge mistakes in handling slightly difficult situations - any decent teacher will say as much.

No, you made up your mind straightaway, and you've been fitting the facts to your theory since then.

Mary63

This isnt bad behaviour though,its open defiance and child is prepared to scream for an hour or until staff ring her mother to have her removed.

This is terrible for the other children who then have stressed worn out staff dealing with them.I would be very unhappy if my child had to sit while someone else screamed continuously.

There is absolutely nothing the staff can do,no sanctions will work not even the threat to ring parents.How is it the new staff member s fault when probably the other children can obey instructions,playschool only lasts for a few hours,it should be possible for most four year olds to get through the day without causing aggravation.

January

Mary63 wrote: »

This isnt bad behaviour though,its open defiance and child is prepared to scream for an hour or until staff ring her mother to have her removed.

This is terrible for the other children who then have stressed worn out staff dealing with them.I would be very unhappy if my child had to sit while someone else screamed continuously.

There is absolutely nothing the staff can do,no sanctions will work not even the threat to ring parents.How is it the new staff member s fault when probably the other children can obey instructions,playschool only lasts for a few hours,it should be possible for most four year olds to get through the day without causing aggravation.

How do you know this? They don't seem to have even tried to put any sanctions in place according to the OP, ringing the parent seemed to be the first port of call for them. That's definitely not going to work, because, as said, the child will just learn that if they're defiant or screaming that mammy will be called. I know that if my daughter thought she could get away with bad behaviour to be taken out of class and brought home she would, but she knows she can't because she knows her teachers will try everything else before calling me and eventually she'll give up the chase and give in. The teachers need to do this.

Mary63

The staff have protocol and steps to follow and you may be sure they have tried everything.Dont forget they are subject to inspection and the decision to send a child home once would not be taken lightly once never mind twice.it is extraordinary that the staff rang a parent four minutes after a child was dropped off too,playschools have a business to run and need seats filled and they wont run the risk of getting a reputation for not being able to manage bad behaviour.

I think the OPS main concern is that she might be asked to remove her child,I dont get from the thread that she is embarrassed that her child is being suspended from a pre school facility.

zeffabelli

Reading this thread is depressing. It's depressing because of how this is all framed as moral failure, either of the parent or of the child.

I suppose I should have read the newsletter in the hospital which said I am expected to have a perfect child and be a perfect parent and that there will be experts around, experts which include everyone and their own mothers who will know not only my child better but me better than I know myself. They will know our trans generational history, our genetic legacies as well as our natures and constitutions, they will express approval or dissapproval depending on to what extent they conform to their own notions of perfection and unless I kill myself trying to adapt those standards I did not consent to, than I am as a mother am a moral failure and so it my child.

They will without hesitation offer the certainties and absulutes of the highest accepted advice, according to whatever worked for their child or didn't work, because of course our children are all the same and if they are not well...they damn well should be.

I suppose I should go back and dig up that newsletter that arrived with the bassinette and the breast pump, because I put it out of my mind and yet here it is all over the pages of this depressing and sancimonious thread.

OP your child is in distress. That is all you know for sure, but it's up to you to find out why.

LegacyUser

Mary63 wrote: »

The staff have protocol and steps to follow and you may be sure they have tried everything.Dont forget they are subject to inspection and the decision to send a child home once would not be taken lightly once never mind twice.it is extraordinary that the staff rang a parent four minutes after a child was dropped off too,playschools have a business to run and need seats filled and they wont run the risk of getting a reputation for not being able to manage bad behaviour.

I think the OPS main concern is that she might be asked to remove her child,I dont get from the thread that she is embarrassed that her child is being suspended from a pre school facility.

Mary, I am all for teaching kids to behave themselves properly and I am completely of the belief that parents need to take personal responsibility for their kid's behaviour first and and foremost - but you are making a lot of general assumptions in your posts.

You're contradicting yourself a bit - the school chose to ring her mother. The child did not choose that. Straight away, that's a mistake on the school's part. There are other kids there, and I totally get that. She may be learning to domineer adults, as you put it, but if she's doing it, it's because she knows the school will ring once she behaves a certain way - because they made the move first.

I don't know how the OP disciplines or doesn't, but seriously, the school is not dealing with this situation well. "They have a business to run" is not the right attitude here - they are offering themselves up as an educational establishment for pre-schoolers and their staff should have a degree of training that will allow them to deal with all kids. No child is perfect, and no staff member is perfect, but if you are going to take in kids and profess to "educate" them, then taking a "business" attitude is not the right way to go about it. Move on a year or two and the child is in a primary school - what then? They don't just ring every time something goes wrong. And no, it's not the same setting, but if you are in the field of educating kids then this is what you should be able to deal with. Whether or not the child gets "thrown out" is a secondary issue - the school should have methods to deal with all types of behaviour.

Having said that, the OP does need to address the issue herself aswell as best she can. And maybe she is. Personally I don't think there's anything much wrong with the child other than being four years old. If there's bad dreams and sleep disturbance, something is not right, and if she's tired going into school then she will be even less able to deal with whatever issues might come up. Four year olds are not machines. They melt down regularly. A child cries at least once a day until they are 7 years old, it's to be expected. We simply don't fully know what is going on at home or in the school.

As for expecting an under-2 year old to be upset at a new baby but not a 4 year old - I would fully expect it to be the opposite way around. An under-2 year old is still finding out they are an individual person - a 4 year old knows they are a person, realises there's a new arrival and figures out pretty quickly that things have a changed. A 2 year old forgets there was ever any other way very very quickly.It's quite well known.

I don't think it's anybody's fault that is happening exactly, but I do think that the school are not dealing well with the situation, and for OP's part, she needs to consider speaking to the school and possibly telling them that between them they can work out a few ideas to address this behaviour, but that she cannot or will not attend at every phone call because it's not helping the situation. Also something needs to be done about the little one and her sleep problems - that should probably be addressed quickly because you can't deal with an exhausted child of any age.

LegacyUser

zeffabelli wrote: »

Reading this thread is depressing.

OP your child is in distress. That is all you know for sure, but it's up to you to find out why.

What makes you think the child is in distress? To me if the child was in distress she would be kicking and screaming and not wanting to go in the door of the place.

Can we not accept as a society that kids can sometimes be bold? And the more they are let away with being bold the more they will continue to do that very bold thing?

Does every child need to be mollycoddled these days? "Oh you're throwing a tantrum. You poor thing. Have a hot chocolate there and do the exact same thing tomorrow"

Am I completely missing the point here? Or is it the done thing these days to blame everyone but the parent?

Neyite

Mary63 wrote: »

This isnt bad behaviour though,its open defiance and child is prepared to scream for an hour or until staff ring her mother to have her removed.

This is terrible for the other children who then have stressed worn out staff dealing with them.I would be very unhappy if my child had to sit while someone else screamed continuously.

There is absolutely nothing the staff can do,no sanctions will work not even the threat to ring parents.How is it the new staff member s fault when probably the other children can obey instructions,playschool only lasts for a few hours,it should be possible for most four year olds to get through the day without causing aggravation.

Its pre-school, not April during their Leaving Cert year. A kid throwing a tanty for an hour is all in a days work in creche. And from what I've seen, the other kids take no notice.

Its not a very inclusive attitude to have either. There's a Down Syndrome boy in my son's creche. I'd guess he has additional needs that they cater for, but I'm very glad to see children who, a generation ago might have been shoved into an institution and ignored, are now in mainstream education. I want these kind of things to be normal in my kids life. He has two disabled cousins. I want him to understand that X having ASD or Y with a physical disability is as normal to him as the myriad of nationalities of his peers.

If a kid is too much work for a crèche to handle after a few tantrums, where do we draw the line with 'difficult' then? If a child cant master potty training due to a physical condition? Or what about a child with a severe allergy? A potential ASD child? Physically disabled children? Certain religions? Because if they cant handle a child who is neuro-typical but just a little brat, then they are hardly likely to want to take the kid who needs an epi pen, or a wheelchair or the diabetic one onto their books.

January

Scooooobsss wrote: »

What makes you think the child is in distress? To me if the child was in distress she would be kicking and screaming and not wanting to go in the door of the place.

Can we not accept as a society that kids can sometimes be bold? And the more they are let away with being bold the more they will continue to do that very bold thing?

Does every child need to be mollycoddled these days? "Oh you're throwing a tantrum. You poor thing. Have a hot chocolate there and do the exact same thing tomorrow"

Am I completely missing the point here? Or is it the done thing these days to blame everyone but the parent?

Nobody is saying that the child needs to be mollycoddled, we're saying that the school need to be proactive in disciplining the child and not calling the mother every time they decide to act out.

Also, nobody is blaming everyone but the parent, the school AND the parent need to come up with a plan of discipline they'd both be happy with.

I don't buy the line that the school just need to kick her out and the OP needs to deal with it, that teaches the child that she has won.

zeffabelli

Scooooobsss wrote: »

What makes you think the child is in distress? To me if the child was in distress she would be kicking and screaming and not wanting to go in the door of the place.

Can we not accept as a society that kids can sometimes be bold? And the more they are let away with being bold the more they will continue to do that very bold thing?

Does every child need to be mollycoddled these days? "Oh you're throwing a tantrum. You poor thing. Have a hot chocolate there and do the exact same thing tomorrow"

Am I completely missing the point here? Or is it the done thing these days to blame everyone but the parent?

Its only your place to blame the parent if you consider yourself superior to the parent. Who granted you that moral high horse I will never know but it is utterly useless.

There are protests, there is wilfulness, there is rebellion against shaming abusive oppressive patents or teachers and there are meltdowns from being overwhelmed. No one here knows.

Parenting is not about creating submissive little creatures. Bold. I hate that word in Irish context. Where I come from it means brave! It's positive!

pwurple

I know I mentioned sleep earlier, I am a big fan of getting the basics sorted and working up from a solid base of being fed, watered and rested on behaviour. 90% of our behaviour issues around that age were her basic needs being mis-timed by us. Getting the size of meals wrong (she was always very hungry in the morning, we were expecting her to eat more in the evening when she was not hungry, so we got fights at both ends)

As well as decent sleep, does your daughter eat a breakfast, have something to drink and go to the loo before preschool? Does she get exercise during the rest of the day? Is she too hot or too cold? I know they all sound like ridiculous questions, but any one of those throws a small child off kilter and they get very cross.

Plus the preschool need to cop on of course.

LegacyUser

zeffabelli wrote: »

Its only your place to blame the parent if you consider yourself superior to the parent. Who granted you that moral high horse I will never know but it is utterly useless.

There are protests, there is wilfulness, there is rebellion against shaming abusive oppressive patents or teachers and there are meltdowns from being overwhelmed. No one here knows.

Parenting is not about creating submissive little creatures. Bold. I hate that word in Irish context. Where I come from it means brave! It's positive!

I'm certainly not feeling superior to the parent. We have all been in that situation where a child acts up. I have been many times. My solution is to talk to the child and find ways so they don't act up/be bold in that way again. And I'm not apologising for using the word bold. It's just a word.

Maybe blaming the parent is too strong a word but the bulk of the responsibility lies with the parent(s). The child is just 4 so cannot be held responsible.

The school, whilst somewhat responsible, cannot parent the child. We can't all assume that others will take out kids whilst we wash our hands of responsibility while they are in the temporary care of others.

Parents need to take responsibility and parent.

zeffabelli

She sounds angry about something and doesn't know how to express it.

What should she do with the anger?

Yes sleep deprivations make it harder to regulate emotion. We know this so expecting her to regulate when she's not getting enough sleep is the error.

She can't do it, humans can't do that. Not fair for people to advocate punishment for that or to expect anything else.

piperh

I'm going to come at this from 2 angles. As a teacher who has taught every age from 3 to 18 I can honestly say it's not as straight forward as the preschool should be doing more. The ops little girl is 1 child in a room/class of approx 20 children (just a guess at figure) the teachers do not have the time to spend encouraging her to do the basics. After 5 weeks she knows what the morning/daily routine is in school and chose not to do as expected of her

The teachers simply cannot spend a large chunk of their day dealing with 1 child no matter how much they'd like to. If they do the other children are not getting the attention, and eventually they may think the only way to get it is to misbehave. Peer learning does not only teach them good behaviour but bad as well. It may be that the preschool have decided for the benefit of other children calling the op and removing the child may be the best option.

Coming at it from a parents view I know that as much as I like to think I'd consider the other children and teachers I'd really only be concerned for my own child. I think there is something bothering your child especially if it now affecting her sleep. She probably doesn't even know why she's feeling miserable and therefore being uncooperative. However she needs to realise it isn't acceptable.

My suggestion as both a teacher and a mom is to ask to speak to the preschool manager and her teacher in private. Explain your concerns and say you realise it is not good for them, you or your child. Next I would ask to have weekly meetings to hear about her behaviour and plans for next week. Unless a major incident has occured this shouldn't take more than 10mins so I can't see any decent preschool objecting. Immediately following your first meeting I would bring your daughter in and you and her teacher put on a united front. Explain her behaviour is unacceptable and she must do as she's told straight away, say to her it isn't ok for her being sent home for bad behaviour and in the future you will not be collecting her. Also say every friday you are going to talk to her teacher and if she's been good you can do something nice/treat ect on the way home. Remind her of this every day going in and it will become the norm.

Good luck

eviltwin

My son was that kid who acted out and made a show of himself in preschool. He's not a bad kid, he's not manipulative, he's not mollycoddled or allowed to get away with murder in the home. In our case it was a sensory issue and now that we know what the cause is and how to deal with it he's a normal happy child. But thankfully we have him in an amazing school with staff who worked with us. I feel for the op, she's got a huge amount to deal with and like any parent is not an expert and is trying her best. Cut her some slack. I know how soul destroying the judgemental attitudes of others can be when they see your child having a melt down and automatically label you a crap parent. This lady came here looking for support and advice so let's try and do that instead of judging her.

zeffabelli

Also if you're going to teach her "this behaviour is unacceptable" then you also have to give hervthexdkilks to know what to do with the anger.

Otherwise it's just not ****ing fair. Total double bind.

itsasecret

Thanks everyone. I will try to answer some questions. She is a good eater and we have a set bed time 7ish with story and then reading time. No issues going to sleep. She has woken once or twice recently to go to the loo and she has mentioned nightmares at breakfast time (once or twice) . She tends to wake early between 6-7. She is tired after pre-school no question.

Before preschool started I would have said she is headstrong but manageable, but finds it hard to control herself over silly things. For example she has a spoon she likes to eat breakfast with and a back up spoon if that one is in the wash and that's what she likes and I tend to ignore that and allow her to have her spoon but if you try to make her eat with a normal spoon there is a fight. (I should say at other people's house she uses other spoons so it's not a serious issue.)

Other then that there is very little trouble at home. She loves the new baby and is very helpful with him. She can happily play on her own or with friends and she can even go out and play with the older kids on the road (watching her of course)

So this issue in pre-school is a bit of a shock. Looking back I don't think I prepared her for the difference between Playschool and pre-school (poor kid went along one day and someone had swopped teachers and forced all these new strict rules on her) I have no issue with them ringing the first two times (after an hour of bad behaviour or for pushing a kid of his chair). The last phone call is more worrying . Interesting enough I know they did not ring the parent of the child who hit her but they did ring me to tell me she was hit.

She likes the reward chart and the last two days have been good. We are being more strict with her behaviour at home. thanks again for everyone who took time to answer (never expected so many)

piperh

zeffabelli wrote: »

Also if you're going to teach her "this behaviour is unacceptable" then you also have to give hervthexdkilks to know what to do with the anger.

Otherwise it's just not ****ing fair. Total double bind.

Of course you don't just say to a child "thats wrong". But as parents it is up to us to explain what is and isn't acceptable behaviour. As just a random internet poster I do not know the op or her child so i have no way of knowing the language and way she speaks to her child so I couldn't tell her what to say to explain it wasn't acceptable. Tools to deal with it would obviously be different for every child. My own children the eldest was for him to explain why he felt as he did yet you'd not get a word out of the youngest. They both knew though that regardless certain behaviours were unacceptable but I preferred positive reinforcement so it was more fun for them to cooperate.

I was trying to look at it from both sides and give a strategy that might work. That's why I suggested talking to the preschool and getting them onside with any plans to help the child.

Mary63

well done itsasecret,show her who is in charge and that you mean business.

Its not strict rules that have been forced on her,its probably just someone expecting her to do what she is told when she is told.

We have a nation of spoilt brats and no one is listening to the teachers whose jobs are getting more and more difficult.

We have parents who never get off their phones or their Ipads long enough to correct their children,they simply arent communicating or even listening to their children and then they wonder why other people have a problem with their children.

piperh

itsasecret wrote: »

So this issue in pre-school is a bit of a shock. Looking back I don't think I prepared her for the difference between Playschool and pre-school (poor kid went along one day and someone had swopped teachers and forced all these new strict rules on her) I have no issue with them ringing the first two times (after an hour of bad behaviour or for pushing a kid of his chair). The last phone call is more worrying . Interesting enough I know they did not ring the parent of the child who hit her but they did ring me to tell me she was hit.

She likes the reward chart and the last two days have been good. We are being more strict with her behaviour at home. thanks again for everyone who took time to answer (never expected so many)

Some parents might be easier to tell face to face their little jonny isn't the angel they think it is so that might explain the lack of call. I assume it was logged in the incident book though.

Does the preschool do daily diaries? Are her meltdowns written up? Just wondering if there's a pattern that nobody has picked up on. Maybe not wanting to go out at break ect. It could be something as daft as she's the last to put her coat on/take it off and panics.

Glad she's responding to the chart :-)

Penny Tration

Mary63 wrote: »

well done itsasecret,show her who is in charge and that you mean business.

Its not strict rules that have been forced on her,its probably just someone expecting her to do what she is told when she is told.

We have a nation of spoilt brats and no one is listening to the teachers whose jobs are getting more and more difficult.

We have parents who never get off their phones or their Ipads long enough to correct their children,they simply arent communicating or even listening to their children and then they wonder why other people have a problem with their children.

You've been making up scenarios that don't appear to exist just to justify you calling the child a brat.

OP is clearly doing her best so why not offer some advice instead of repeatedly making up pretend scenarios and insulting her kid?

Mary63

Op should have done her best long before this.

At least now she is showing the four year old who is in charge at home,this means there will be less conflict in school regarding knowing who is in charge there too.

Children need to know their boundaries,its as simple as that and all the permissive wishy washy stuff is a waste of time.Children dont need long winded discussions either,it just confuses them.