Daughter sent home from pre-school for the second time

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Mary63 wrote: »

I have not demonstrated cruelty,I have no compassion for four year old in question,she sounds just awful and no excuses eg,she is clever and headstrong and she has a new sibling would make any difference to me.

I'm gobsmacked. No child is 'just awful'. This poor child is showing bad behaviour which is a symptom of something else going on. OP please don't pass any heed on this horrible person. Lots of love and hugs and 1 on 1 attention and hopefully your little girl will pass this phase very soon! Keep giving her positive attention rather than giving her attention for bad behaviour.

moving_home

Orion wrote: »

I thought I was was perfectly clear about this. Obviously not.

Mary63 banned. Please don't respond to her posts as she no longer has a right to reply.

Sorry crossed posts. I won't reply to her again.

One comment.

There are a huge number of posts on this thread essentially believing that it is the responsibility of a 3 hour pre-school, almost certainly staffed by people not qualified as teachers and certainly not qualified as medical professionals (and probably on minimum wage) to 'fix' this child's behaviour.

I'll be honest, I think that's nonsense. They appear to be dealing with the consequences of a child who won't respond to direction.

I don't pretend for a moment to have all the answers but it feels ridiculously glib to be accusing the pre-school of failing the child.

With the greatest of respect, it sounds a little like the child gets their own way at home (see the 'favourite spoon' anecdote) and has a hard time in an environment where that doesn't happen. That doesn't feel like the pre-school's problem to me.

pwurple

Deleted User wrote: »

With the greatest of respect, it sounds a little like the child gets their own way at home (see the 'favourite spoon' anecdote) and has a hard time in an environment where that doesn't happen. That doesn't feel like the pre-school's problem to me.

I think the favourite spoon, favourite bowl, favourite toy, favourite anything was a perfectly normal part of development for that age.

Qualitymark

I have a favourite mug. I don't throw a wobbly when I don't get to drink out of it, but I'm a bit older.

This really sounds to me like a personality clash with one of the minders in the creche.

Let me tell you a story. Friends had a kid who was always kind of whiney and underconfident and clingy, aged about four. They moved to a village in France, where she was suddenly super-popular, with girls fighting to walk to school with her. Totally changed kid. And permanently. She grew up very confident, due to the change.

zeffabelli

zeffabelli wrote: »

Its only your place to blame the parent if you consider yourself superior to the parent.

Just to clarify - does this apply to the staff in the pre-school as well?

It appears to be open season when it comes to them.

mitresize5

pwurple wrote: »

I think the favourite spoon, favourite bowl, favourite toy, favourite anything was a perfectly normal part of development for that age.

Is it perfectly normal to throw a wobbly every time they don't get to use it? Personally I don't think so.

I'm going to be honest, I'm quite surprised at the amount of people on this thread who are blaming the pre-school for not adjusting their and all the other kids routines and patterns to facilitate one child.

Whether you agree with it or not life is all about fitting into these, be it preschool, school, socially, sports etc.... We all don't get our own way in life and the sooner we realise (or are made realise) that the better.

My own personal anecdotal evidence is of having a brother like that. Everything growing up had to be done around him less he throw a hissy fit. Non of the rest of us siblings bonded with him, the truth be told there is still some lingering resentment towards him and he has certainly suffered in later life as this attitude has not served him well. Anecdotal for sure but this is my experience.

Any four year old I know knows the difference between right and wrong so I'm assuming this child does too.

OP, in my opinion the child needs to be taken in hand and disciplined. Boundaries need to be set and if these are crossed then the consequences need to be seen through. Otherwise you have a long road ahead of you

Having said all that you have your children and I have mine and everyone else has there's. Everyone has their own opinion on how best to rare their own kids as is their own right. You came on here looking for opinions so for what it's worth you now have mine.

Best of luck whatever way you decide to go

zeffabelli

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Just to clarify - does this apply to the staff in the pre-school as well?

It appears to be open season when it comes to them.

It applies to anyone. Blame is a morally superior vantage point.

itsasecret

Ok just to be clear I'm not interesting in blaming Playschool ! I have been there for 4 years in total and it's a good pre-school. The teacher is new but no I don't think she dislikes my daughter. We (the teacher and I) talk about the day when I collect her

The reason I mentioned the spoon thing was of the few things I can think of where maybe I should have stood my ground but on the other hand she likes plastic spoons and it seems silly to fight over it.

Most other things she is grand about. We food shop together and she is grand and no I don't give in to her all the time .

We are a normal family and she is a normal 4 year old BUT she is finding pre-school hard! And I would like to help her but I don't know how. What I would say is that she is different then my son when you give out to her she does not get upset. As in let's say I take TV time or story time off her, she does not seem to care. That's what I mean by headstrong.

itsasecret

itsasecret wrote: »

We are a normal family and she is a normal 4 year old BUT she is finding pre-school hard! And I would like to help her but I don't know how.

Just my take on it, but you got some good advice from piperh in post 113. I would do that. Very important to engage constructively with the pre-school and acknowledge that the situation isn't good for anyone and work from there.

On that note, what always worked with my children (eventually) was making them realise that their behaviour was only hurting themselves, and that constantly fighting about things wasn't enjoyable.

But I am not sure generalisations based on other people's children will help you!

Neyite

Orinoco, it sounds like the op does want to work with the preschool to resolve it, and I agree that is the best way forward, but it doesn't sound like the preschool is all that interested in doing likewise if they ring her 4 minutes into difficult behaviour. I don't see how the op can resolve these issues on her own without their help when she's not even there when the behaviour kicks off.

Chisler2

January wrote: »

How do you know this? They don't seem to have even tried to put any sanctions in place according to the OP, ringing the parent seemed to be the first port of call for them. That's definitely not going to work, because, as said, the child will just learn that if they're defiant or screaming that mammy will be called. I know that if my daughter thought she could get away with bad behaviour to be taken out of class and brought home she would, but she knows she can't because she knows her teachers will try everything else before calling me and eventually she'll give up the chase and give in. The teachers need to do this.

The problem with this entire "discussion" - which is, incidently, both subjective and unscientific, having no basis in pedagogy - is the assumption that adults working in pre-school and/or school have the task of socialising individual children, in addition to the task of providing a stimulating context for acquisition of cognitive skills.

Turn this around. How would the OP feel if her 4-year-old daughter's participation in pre-school activities was repeatedly disrupted by the behaviour of another child whose actions and behaviour necessitated that staff concentrate on THAT child, to the detriment of the group?

LegacyUser

OP, to be fair to you I don't think you're blaming the preschool for not being able to handle her. You seem to be interested in trying to work with them to get your daughter to behave better for them. At the end of the day she's 4... but so is everyone else in her class. So while some disruptive/defiant behaviour is to be expected at that age, the preschool would be well used to dealing with children of that age and will recognise behaviour that is not "normal" 4 year old behaviour. My nephew was "one of those children"!! His mam was called to collect him a number of times from preschool. But the thing is - he is a difficult child to deal with. He doesn't listen to others (he's now 10). He wasn't being terribly "bold" in preschool but his refusal to do as he was told was disruptive to the other children. The teachers would try to convince/persuade/cajole him etc but when it became clear that he was not going to cooperate they had no choice but call his mam. Leaving him there was taking a full teacher away from the other children.

If the school contact every parent every time their child acts up to come and collect them, then I think posters here would be right to berate them. But it seems your daughter is fairly headstrong - and you've been called twice to bring her home, and once to get her into school. I'm sure there have been many other incidents with her where they did manage to deal with her and moved on. So they are not calling you for every little incident.

My own son caused a bit of trouble in primary school - and yes, I got calls from the school to tell me he had done x, y or z. So primary schools are also inclined to call parents if a child's behaviour is a problem. Just because some parents don't get calls when their child acts up doesn't mean schools should never ring any parent ever. I would expect every school/teacher would try to deal with the situation first. 99% of the time they do and the child calms down/cooperates whatever. But there will always be a small percentage of children who won't always behave as is expected. And yes, by 4 and in preschool there is a standard of behaviour expected of children. The majority of preschool children can manage. Your daughter obviously manages some days because you don't get called every single day to come and get her. There's just the odd days where she digs her heels in and they can get no good of her. At that point they can't continue to take one teacher away from the other children to deal exclusively with her, so the only option they are left with is to call you and inform you of what she is doing, and that they can't do any more with her at that time.

When you collect her, how do you act? When she gets home what do you do? I'd be inclined to ignore her. Completely. When you put her into the car tell her how disappointed you are that you have had to be called to collect her because of bad behaviour and tell her you are a bit upset that she won't be good. And then don't say anything else. When you get home, don't let her play with her toys etc. If she asks you to do something for her tell her you're not happy with her etc. You don't have to go over the top, but just let her know that her behaviour has made you sad. Later on when she has had a bit of time to think about it (if she does!) then have a chat with her about why she did whatever. At this stage don't get cross with her. Don't get annoyed or even tell her you're upset, just ask her to think about why she did it. Tell her if she continues behaving like that the other children won't want to play with her etc...

My nephew used to tell his mam if he decided he didn't want to stay in preschool he'd just be bold and then she'd come and collect him - going home was no deterrent for him. He'd go home and watch his favourite film or play with his favourite toys.

itsasecret

Thanks Legofriends. That's really what I'm looking for. The first time I collected her I did not tell her I was asked to collect her, my thinking was that a) it was a once off she had clearly had a melt down from tiredness or sickness or something but she had never done it before at Playschool C) I did not want her linking bad behaviour with coming home.

The next time I gave her a serious telling off and she knew she had gone too far. TV was withdrawn, she missed a play date with a friend.

The last time (where she did not come home) we had a chat about what happened and I told her that she has to do what the teacher said and if I was called to the school again because she would not do something she would be grounded . I'm sure I will face the wrath of posters for not been harder on the last time but I feel Playschool where too quick to call this time and she had been good the rest of the day.

By the way there was a poster who asked how would I feel if my child in the class and there was another child who misbehaved, the same way I feel knowing that a child hit my child on the face! They are children! They are not going to behave all the time. That said of course there is behaviour that is totally unacceptable.

QuinDixie

The apple rarely falls far from the tree. If your child is showing behavioral problems, maybe its home that is the problem, not some minimum paid school assistants.
Never forget you are the parent, you set the moral compass for your children. Your child wont like you for it now, but thats the joys of parenting.

Chocolate fiend

Neyite wrote: »

Ours does. We get a slip of paper telling us what he ate (or didnt eat) before potty training it would also tell us how many wet and soiled nappies he had, if there was any issue with his nappies we needed to know, give an outline of some of the activites they did, and tell us the time he napped and for how long. If he was under the weather or in quiet/clingy form it would also describe that, and if they gave any calpol or neurofen too. And reminders periodically asking for nappies /suncream/ sunhat /nappy cream /wipes.

Even for the littlest things - a bite, a bump, a fall, there would be an incident report written out, it would be explained to us how it happened, how they treated the bruise, and we would sign it for their file and keep a copy.

Do the staff have adequate training and qualifications? I know in our creche, they all have at a childcare qualification, they are listed under the photo of each staffer in the lobby. But I do think that you can have qualifications coming out your ears, but that its a very vocational type of job - if you are ambivalent about kids it would be a very tough career.

Have you looked up the Tulsa Report for the preschool? You can see if they are conforming to standards set by the HSE. The more you talk about the pre-school, the more I think its not a good one at all.

The report you get sounds like more what you get from a creche than an pre-school, very different animal.

Neyite

Chocolate fiend wrote: »

The report you get sounds like more what you get from a creche than an pre-school, very different animal.

He is in the ECCE preschool year in the Montessori room, in a crèche facility that provides care from 6months to 11yrs. Our report used to be a lot more detailed when he was in nappies, and had more nap times but we still get one.

How does a crèche differ in its delivery of the preschool year as opposed to a preschool, could you explain the difference?

Rose35

We got a daily written report when our son was in baby and toddler room in creche. He is now in the playschool room age 3 and they don't fill in a daily written report anymore, if there is anything specific that i need to know they tell me when I pick him up. No written report in the preschool room either.

Chocolate fiend

Neyite wrote: »

He is in the ECCE preschool year in the Montessori room, in a crèche facility that provides care from 6months to 11yrs. Our report used to be a lot more detailed when he was in nappies, and had more nap times but we still get one.

How does a crèche differ in its delivery of the preschool year as opposed to a preschool, could you explain the difference?

Well a Creche is set up to look after children all day, a pre-school is quite different in that it is only 3 hours and its not childcare. I imagine a child doing preschool in their own creche is in the facility for a lot more than 3 hours and for the rest of the hours outside the preschool ones the creche are doing child minding rather than preschooling iykiwm? It's not that hard to see the difference. My children were never in creche, they only went to preschool and there was no need to tell me if they did a wee or whatever, that wasn't what they were there for.

deathtocaptcha

how to discipline a child that doesn't listen:

how to discipline a 3 year old:

Elliottsmum79

QuinDixie wrote: »

The apple rarely falls far from the tree. If your child is showing behavioral problems, maybe its home that is the problem, not some minimum paid school assistants.
Never forget you are the parent, you set the moral compass for your children. Your child wont like you for it now, but thats the joys of parenting.

I reckon thats a bit tough. Moral compass indeed but hello? Toddler?? Very small child. More about helping them to navigate the world with respect for themselves and others. Save the moral compass for the big moral issues.

Elliottsmum79

itsasecret wrote: »

Ok just to be clear I'm not interesting in blaming Playschool ! I have been there for 4 years in total and it's a good pre-school. The teacher is new but no I don't think she dislikes my daughter. We (the teacher and I) talk about the day when I collect her

The reason I mentioned the spoon thing was of the few things I can think of where maybe I should have stood my ground but on the other hand she likes plastic spoons and it seems silly to fight over it.

Most other things she is grand about. We food shop together and she is grand and no I don't give in to her all the time .

We are a normal family and she is a normal 4 year old BUT she is finding pre-school hard! And I would like to help her but I don't know how. What I would say is that she is different then my son when you give out to her she does not get upset. As in let's say I take TV time or story time off her, she does not seem to care. That's what I mean by headstrong.

In our house we dont do punishment- instead we make amends through positive action- its a real winning strategy (as punishment these rarely work and you quickly run our of big sticks so to speak). Try this book http://www.amazon.com/Raising-Your-Spirited-Child-Perceptive/dp/0060739665

Neyite

Elliottsmum79 wrote: »

In our house we dont do punishment- instead we make amends through positive action- its a real winning strategy (as punishment these rarely work and you quickly run our of big sticks so to speak). Try this book http://www.amazon.com/Raising-Your-Spirited-Child-Perceptive/dp/0060739665

I've just had a look at that book, it says its aimed at spirited children. Is that just a nicer way of saying 'standard stubborn tantrumming toddler'? :P I'm looking for ways to deal effectively with the morning /bedtime battles, and like the idea of positive action, positive reinforcement and saw him respond really well with the technique while we were potty training, but I don't think my child is more intense, sensitive etc than the next pre-schooler so not sure if this book would be a waste of money for me.

Elliottsmum79

Neyite wrote: »

I've just had a look at that book, it says its aimed at spirited children. Is that just a nicer way of saying 'standard stubborn tantrumming toddler'? :P I'm looking for ways to deal effectively with the morning /bedtime battles, and like the idea of positive action, positive reinforcement and saw him respond really well with the technique while we were potty training, but I don't think my child is more intense,sensitive etc than the next pre-schooler so not sure if this book would be a waste of money for me.

LOL! Its really a case of a persons own viewpoint on this, some kids are more strong willed, determined, stubborn and hence spirited. I'm one of those and so is my boy!! That may not be the case for you and its so hard to advise I'd always risk a few book purchases in any case as you'll always get something from them. On a positive discipline note perhaps try Janet Lansbury http://www.amazon.co.uk/No-Bad-Kids-Toddler-Discipline/dp/1499351119 and check her out on facebook too for lots of advice and resources! Good luck....

skallywag

Neyite wrote: »

How does a crèche differ in its delivery of the preschool year as opposed to a preschool, could you explain the difference?

As far as I understand the primary function of the former is childcare e.g. while the parents are not available to look after the child, while that of the latter is educational?

Neyite

Elliottsmum79 wrote: »

LOL! Its really a case of a persons own viewpoint on this, some kids are more strong willed, determined, stubborn and hence spirited. I'm one of those and so is my boy!! That may not be the case for you and its so hard to advise I'd always risk a few book purchases in any case as you'll always get something from them. On a positive discipline note perhaps try Janet Lansbury http://www.amazon.co.uk/No-Bad-Kids-Toddler-Discipline/dp/1499351119 and check her out on facebook too for lots of advice and resources! Good luck....

Thanks! It turns out they are only a few quid on kindle so I've bought them both. Parenting, lets be having ya!

As far as I understand the primary function of the former is childcare e.g. while the parents are not available to look after the child, while that of the latter is educational?

Ah ok. My creche might be different then. Their preschool classroom do educational activities and learning as well as exercises to teach the children independence, for example I know he was doing an exercise with beads where the objective was to improve their pincer grip which will help when they learn to write down the line, and usually they have something like that on his report most days. So it might be that they do a play-school type morning and a childcare afternoon for the full time children in there. But we still get our little report like we've always done, just less detail.