France?

HiSir!

Hello Folks!

OK, so I was want your opinion's or feedback on a question I have always wondered about.

What country was my late grandfather born in?

Some Facts ;

- He was born in 'GREATER LEBANON' in 1933

- At that specific time, it was ruled by France under the 'French Mandate for Syria and Lebanon'.

- People from 'Greater Lebanon' who wished to travel around the time it was a French colony were issued with French Passports.

So what country would he technically have been born in?

Peregrinus

He was born in the Lebanon.

From 1923 to 1946 the Lebanon was a League of Nations mandate of France. This means that France was to render "administrative advice and assistance" to the Lebanon until the country was able to stand along as an independent nation. In practice it meant that the French governed the Lebanon, but it did not mean the the Lebanon became part of France, any more than Palestine was part of the UK at the time.

Even if the Lebanon had been a full colonial possession of France - like, say, Senegal - it would still not have been "part of France" any more, again, than Kenya was part of the UK.

Peregrinus

He was born in the Lebanon.

From 1923 to 1946 the Lebanon was a League of Nations mandate of France. This means that France was to render "administrative advice and assistance" to the Lebanon until the country was able to stand along as an independent nation. In practice it meant that the French governed the Lebanon, but it did not mean the the Lebanon became part of France, any more than Palestine was part of the UK at the time.

Even if the Lebanon had been a full colonial possession of France - like, say, Senegal - it would still not have been "part of France" any more, again, than Kenya was part of the UK.

Fratton Fred

Peregrinus wrote: »

He was born in the Lebanon.

From 1923 to 1946 the Lebanon was a League of Nations mandate of France. This means that France was to render "administrative advice and assistance" to the Lebanon until the country was able to stand along as an independent nation. In practice it meant that the French governed the Lebanon, but it did not mean the the Lebanon became part of France, any more than Palestine was part of the UK at the time.

Even if the Lebanon had been a full colonial possession of France - like, say, Senegal - it would still not have been "part of France" any more, again, than Kenya was part of the UK.

Don't France treat several of their colonies as part of France though, as an Overseas Department. I believe Martinique is one such place.

Peregrinus

They do now, yes, but that's a relatively modern development arising out of the dismantling of their colonial empire after the Second World War. Their overseas possessions were granted independence (within the "French Union", a sort of red-wine-and-camembert-infused version of the British Commonwealth which never really got going) and those that were too small to be viable independent states, or who simply didn't want to be, became overseas departments of the French Republic, with representation in the French Parliament, etc.

Even then, someone born in Martinique or Guadaloupe is not likely to tell you that he was born in France; these territories may be part of the French Republic, but people generally locate the place of their birth geographically, not politically, and they are not part of geographic France.

In any event it's not relevant to the Lebanon. The Lebanon was under French administration but it was never a French possession. And it was under French administration at a time when, even if it had been under French colonial possession, it would not have been treated as a department of the Republic.

HiSir!

Peregrinus wrote: »

Even then, someone born in Martinique or Guadaloupe is not likely to tell you that he was born in France; these territories may be part of the French Republic, but people generally locate the place of their birth geographically, not politically, and they are not part of geographic France.

I think this is were perhaps your interpretation and mine would be different. As France is the sovereign ruling country I would say a person born there was born in France

HiSir!

Peregrinus wrote: »

In any event it's not relevant to the Lebanon. The Lebanon was under French administration but it was never a French possession. And it was under French administration at a time when, even if it had been under French colonial possession, it would not have been treated as a department of the Republic.

What confuses me is that

- The mandate with which they governed Greater Lebanon was a mandate of the French Third Republic, their constitution.

- That a look at the Greater Lebanon flag, it's the same or similar as their overseas's territory flag's in that it has the French tricolour on it.

- People travelling at the time were given French passports and from what I seen of them, they were the exact same as passports issued in Metropolitan France.

- From wikipedia to university web pages to semi-government departments, the all seem to deem Lebanon a former French colony and part of the former French Empire.

So that is why is pretty confused in that if he was born in the French Empire, I would say he was born in France but I am insure and that's why I asked.

testicle

OP, if he was born a bit further south in what is now Israel, would you call him British?

By your logic, if he was born in Ireland prior to 1922, he'd have been British, and you know how nonsensical that would be.

HiSir!

testicle wrote: »

OP, if he was born a bit further south in what is now Israel, would you call him British?

By your logic, if he was born in Ireland prior to 1922, he'd have been British, and you know how nonsensical that would be.

I didnt mention nationality at all, I asked what country or sovereign state in your opinion he would have been born in.

Yes the British had a mandate to rule what is now Israel so anyone born there could technically say they have been born in the UK or Mandatory Palestine or Israel just as people born in the Falkland Islands or Gibraltar could say they were born in the UK.

Some people, not me, would view people born here in before independence as born in the UK. Techniclly that is absolutely right but that doesn't mean they were British, you misunderstood the question.

testicle

HiSir! wrote: »

I didnt mention nationality at all, I asked what country or sovereign state in your opinion he would have been born in.

Yes the British had a mandate to rule what is now Israel so anyone born there could technically say they have been born in the UK or Mandatory Palestine or Israel just as people born in the Falkland Islands or Gibraltar could say they were born in the UK.

Some people, not me, would view people born here in before independence as born in the UK. Techniclly that is absolutely right but that doesn't mean they were British, you misunderstood the question.

You need to go and figure out what the UK means. No one born in the Falklands/Gibraltar would ever say they were born in the UK.

Peregrinus

HiSir! wrote: »

I didnt mention nationality at all, I asked what country or sovereign state in your opinion he would have been born in.

Actually, you just asked what country he was born in.

"Country" is primarily a geographical term. Geographically, your grandfather was born in the Lebanon.

If you ask what "sovereign state" he was born in, the answer is that he wasn't born in any sovereign state. The Lebanon was a state, but it wasn't fully sovereign at the time. France was a sovereign state, but the place were he was born was not, either geographically or legally, part of France.

Up until 1920, it was part of sovereign Turkish territory but by the Treaty of Sevres in that year Turkey renounced its sovereignty over the area, and France proclaimed State of Greater Lebanon. The League of Nations provisionally recognized the independence of the Lebanon, but mandated France to render administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as it was able to stand alone.

Your grandfather was born in France in the sense that someone born in Munich in 1951 was born in the United States. Which is to say, your grandfather was born in the Lebanon, and a person born in Munich in 1951 was born in Germany.

Snickers Man

I don't actually know the answer to this question but you might investigate where exactly the boundaries between Lebanon, "Greater" or otherwise, and Syria were and whether they changed between the wars. They may well have done.

France was given a mandate to rule both Syria and Lebanon after the First World War. Neither country gained full independence until the 1940s. Do you know the name of the town or village in which your grandfather was born?