Thinking about apprenticeship, help

mech123

hi guys, i want to do an apprenticeship as a mechanic probably trucks or cars. im not sure yet. but what i cant figure out is how you can afford to have a car and be an apprentice buying tools aswell, all other trades (carpenter, builder etc) all get payed more and yet they don't have to buy a 1/4 of the tools. is there some sort of grant or allowance from fas/solas to start you off ? being a good mechanic means buying good/expensive tools snap on etc.

what's best to go with ? a dealership or a decent independent garage ?

im doing my leaving cert in June so i have a few months to go yet and then id get a job to save money in the mean time. but seriously 195.25 is the rate before tax each week?? for working on cars anyway (starting off that is). that's a joke. any help/advice/tips/stories are welcome

icjzfmq7ewon1t

Not only that but thanks to a sneaky little change a couple of budgets ago, phase 4 and phase 6 cost €1000 each.
No grants or financial help available from Solas as far as I know.
Good luck with it.

Toyotafanboi

You won't lose much tax on €195p/w. From my experience garages will help you out with any specialist tools and help get you avail of their trade discount when buying from motor factors etc.

€195 a week is ****, but it's enough to get by. Thats pretty much what I earned while I was in college and I paid my own reg fees, rent, food, always drove an ok car etc.

You just have to watch the pennys and be prepared to go without some stuff and be careful with what you have to get to where you want to be in the long term.

mfceiling

If you think a decent carpenter doesn't have to spend money on tools then you're deluded.

A subbie friend of mine bought a dewalt chop saw last week at €1100. Add in a decent screw gun, hammer drill, 1st and 2nd fix nail guns, router, plane, skilsaw, impact driver, laser level, jigsaw and then hand tools like hammers, chisels, fine saws, pliers, snips, clamps etc and you'd be lucky to have change from 6 or 7 grand.

Toyotafanboi

Or if you want to feel a bit better, someone is offering you €195 cash a week to learn a trade.

The trade I chose (for my sins) was to become an Architectural technician, it takes 4 years. It cost me €2.5k per year to get trained, plus materials (laptop, drawing board, stationary, many computer programmes, paper reams, plotting costs, hard hats, boots, surveying equipment etc). 95% of the time you have to do it away from home too, so you have rent, dining, transport etc.

So I had to work a job Saturday and Sunday, to pay money to work a job Monday to Friday to get a job in the future. After September 1st your 1st day off is 25 December, then your next day off after that is May 1st the following year.

A lot of people do this.

Don't feel too bad, €195 in the lamh for a 9-5 to learn your trade while living at home with evenings and weekends off isn't too shabby

mech123

mfceiling wrote: »

If you think a decent carpenter doesn't have to spend money on tools then you're deluded.

A subbie friend of mine bought a dewalt chop saw last week at €1100. Add in a decent screw gun, hammer drill, 1st and 2nd fix nail guns, router, plane, skilsaw, impact driver, laser level, jigsaw and then hand tools like hammers, chisels, fine saws, pliers, snips, clamps etc and you'd be lucky to have change from 6 or 7 grand.

i am someone from a carpentry backround, please remind me what a carpenters toolbox costs?? maybe 30e for a stanley toolbag which is the common choice, a mechanics toolbox is maybe 1500ish upwards for a second hand box to start you off till you can afford better. you could buy everything you have listed there for under 3k. and have them for years.

maybe you dont realise how many tools youll need as a mechanic 1/4 3/8 and 1/2 inch ratchets and if working on trucks bigger again with bigger expensive sockets. spanners short, long and angled, ratchet spanners, 6 point and 12 point spanners and sockets. deep, shallow and in-between sockets. air guns/electric impacts, drills, screwdrivers, breaker bars, pliers torx and allen bits, pry bars, hammers soft and hard. lots of specialist or whatever term youd say stuff doing tming belts etc. you never stop buying tools as a mechanic and they all cost a fortune. go have a look at the amount of tools youll need by the time your qualified not to mind the tools youll be buying after that and come back to me and have a go at me over carpenters tools being more expensive.

what ive listed is only stuff i think of off the top of my head.

mech123

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

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Don't feel too bad, €195 in the lamh for a 9-5 to learn your trade while living at home with evenings and weekends off isn't too shabby

yes maybe your right but seriously why do other trades get more when they dont have half the expense...

Toyotafanboi

You'd get a Teng megamaster locally, brand new for around €2k i'd say with it's lifetime warranty and you'd have it forever. Air tools will most likely be on site, you won't be buying those.

mech123

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

You'd get a Teng megamaster locally, brand new for around €2k i'd say with it's lifetime warranty and you'd have it forever. Air tools will most likely be on site, you won't be buying those.

teng is good.. i would not buy teng for professional/everyday work. i have some teng tools and rate them highly for at home but would not see myself buying them if i got an apprenticeship. those sets that youve said above are a no no imo,teng isnt all that when it comes to proffsional stamdard work the pliers and hammers etc dont look good at all.. and some of the stuff you get you will never want and the tools are badly laid out and take up too much space in each drawer. if i did buy one of those it would be for maybe a year. i couldnt live with it for any longer lol

Toyotafanboi

You seem to know everything already so as a mechanic i'd say the pliars and hammer (hopefully) wouldn't be seeing too much action.

iirc, the slips in the drawers are all interchangabe so you can modify the layouts as you please as long as you only change drawers within the same tiers.

I don't understand fully how they can be good at home but not at work, if a tool is good quality it is good quality and if cash is an issue Teng offer the lifetime warranty.

It's a good while since I worked in an auto factors but I do remember you wouldn't buy an empty draper tool chest for the price of the loaded Teng one, but plenty of lads (usually apprentices) bought them and were by and large very happy.

Then treat yourself to a Snap-on etc when you get your papers.

Just thrashing out ideas now

mech123

maybe so.. i just have a bit of a no in my head when i think about them lol. what i would like to do.. (like is the key word) is have a second hand snap on box and fill it with different brands of tools, for pliers i would buy irwin or knipex, sockets spanners and ratchets probably snap on. a mix of tools... thats the way i like it, but the teng box is a maybe, but seems to have lots of unnecessary stuff if you know what i mean. i watched a video of them on youtube and theres all sorts of stuff youd never use like those vice grip c clamp things and 3/4 inch ratchet stuff if you were Working on cars they have no use...

bucketybuck

mech123 wrote: »

but seriously 195.25 is the rate before tax each week?? for working on cars anyway (starting off that is). that's a joke.

You don't know anything useful about cars yet, why on earth would you be paid any more? Theres a serious whiff of entitlement from your posts, I'd lose that quick if I was you, otherwise you'll be asking somebody like me for a job and I'll just say no.

As for tools, you make it sound as if you have to buy everything all at once. Mechanics will spend decades building up their toolboxes and most of them will have started out with enough to make do rather than a specialised tool for every possible job. As an apprentice in one of our dealers you won't need to have much of your own stuff anyway, you will mainly be helping out the real mechanics and using their stuff. Tool wise you will just start with the basics and build from there, if you last long enough.

mech123

bucketybuck wrote: »

You don't know anything useful about cars yet, why on earth would you be paid any more? .

so being able to service a car, do brake work, suspension work and lots of other simple everyday things isn't useful ??

mech123

bucketybuck wrote: »

You don't know anything useful about cars yet, why on earth would you be paid any more? .

so being able to service a car, do brake work, suspension work and lots of other simple everyday things isn't useful ??

wait... all these other apprentices doing other trades getting payed more 'dont know anything useful' either so why are they getting payed more ?

bucketybuck

mech123 wrote: »

so being able to service a car, do brake work, suspension work and lots of other simple everyday things isn't useful ??

Even if you can do those things correctly on the specific vehicles I need them done on, you will still be treated as a first year apprentice who knows nothing until you can prove otherwise. I've seen far too many young lads who thought they knew everything cause far too much hassle because it turns out they knew dick all in the real world.

Even then, lads who can change an oil filter and brake pads are ten a penny so don't get too far ahead of yourself.

The simple fact is that you will be asking a business to give you knowledge you currently don't have, so why on earth do you think they are going to pay you over the odds for the privilege of doing that? Especially when there are dozens of others happy to do it for the stated rates?

bucketybuck

mech123 wrote: »

wait... all these other apprentices doing other trades getting payed more 'dont know anything useful' either so why are they getting payed more ?

If you have a problem with it go off and learn one of those trades instead. You might find the grass isn't greener over there, but hey, its up to you. As the manager of a workshop I certainly don't owe you anything.

mech123

@toyotafan .. . look at hls tools they have lots of teng stuff and them kjits/set upsare a good bit more than 2k..

@bucketybuck yes i agree with what you were saying but was just standing up to the bit where you said i knew nothing. i dont know everything obviously but i would imagine that i know a good bit more than the average person starting an apprenticeship. do you know if its easy/how hard is it to get an apprenticeship as a mechanic these times ?

mech123

bucketybuck wrote: »

If you have a problem with it go off and learn one of those trades instead. You might find the grass isn't greener over there, but hey, its up to you. As the manager of a workshop I certainly don't owe you anything.

i agree. but i love cars and working with anything that has an engine, imo doing what you want to do comes before doing something for the wages

Toyotafanboi

mech123 wrote: »

so being able to service a car, do brake work, suspension work and lots of other simple everyday things isn't useful ??

Useful, yes, but how much do you think basics like that are worth to a garage? And how much are they making off of you doing that.

If a main dealer is offering a €99 oil service, average car, 5l of oil @ €9.00 per liter retail with a 30% margin
a filter @€;15 retail with a 10% margin
Half an hours labour that retails @€;80 an hour

They've only made €56.50 and from that 56.50 the parts guy has to get a cut, the service receptionist has to get a cut, at least 3 highly expensive software programmes were used to process the vehicle during its stay, electricity for the lift, heating for you, disposable gloves and a seat cover for you, the chap who washes the car before it goes back to the customer and waste disposal of the old oil and filter,and that's before a cent of profit. how much of that €56.50 should "filter" back to the apprentice per hour, around a fiver seems bang on.

Chemical Byrne

Are you sure you want to go down this route? It's not a pleasant job and offers only a meagre living. You'll be crocked by the time you're 45 too.

If you like working with cars or machinery, are mechanically minded and are reasonably bright you'd be far far better off doing automotive engineering and try get in with one of the manufacturer's outfits that are here. That'll be dublin or cork though mostly. I don't know how much starting salaries are but I can tell you there is a hell of a lot more potential in it than grease monkeying.

No offence, but an apprenticeship is an awful waste of brains if you have the ability to do better. Long term, you'd be seriously limiting your earning potential.

Don't get me wrong, I wanted to do an apprenticeship when I left school. Father talked me out of it fairly sharpish and now I am very very thankful that he did.

mech123

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

Are you sure you want to go down this route. It's not a pleasant job and offers only a meagre living. You'll be crocked by the time you're 45 too.

yeah im sure. the living isnt too bad if you work hard. its a steady job where as a carpenter or builder ? there fcucked if theres a recession. as said i love cars and want to work on them for the rest of my life despite all the bad stuff ive read about being a mechanic coming from all sides of the world.

bucketybuck

mech123 wrote: »

@bucketybuck yes i agree with what you were saying but was just standing up to the bit where you said i knew nothing.

I didn't say you knew nothing, I said you know nothing useful to me. And you don't.

While basic knowledge is useful don't forget that it is only basic and you might be surprised how many young lads I meet that claim to have been working on their own cars and know all about them. It doesn't impress me at all. If you want to impress me, show me how you are a hard grafter and have a bit of common sense, that counts for far more than what you think you know about cars right now.

As for how easy it is to get an apprenticeship now, we have been increasing our numbers of apprentices lately and I do think the industry is starting to grow. There is also a dearth of good mechanics out there so there will be places who do want good apprentices. You will simply have to get out there and ask them.

I would seriously advise you do a bit of research first though, particularly with regards as to whether you want to do it at all, it can be a hard ****ing grind at times.

bucketybuck

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

If you like working with cars or machinery, are mechanically minded and are reasonably bright you'd be far far better off doing automotive engineering and try get in with one of the manufacturer's outfits that are here. That'll be dublin or cork though mostly. I don't know how much starting salaries are but I can tell you there is a hell of a lot more potential in it than grease monkeying.

No offence, but an apprenticeship is an awful waste of brains if you have the ability to do better. Long term, you'd be seriously limiting your earning potential.

Completely agree, there is a definite upper limit money wise if all you become is a mechanic. If you really want to make anything of yourself long term you will need to specialise in some form or another.

If you can get an engineering degree then definitely without question go down that road. If that isn't happening then do your apprenticeship, but always be training and try to aim for something technical. A gearbox specialist or a spark will always earn more than the guy changing spring bushes and doing services.

mech123

bucketybuck wrote: »

I didn't say you knew nothing, I said you know nothing useful to me. And you don't.

While basic knowledge is useful don't forget that it is only basic and you might be surprised how many young lads I meet that claim to have been working on their own cars and know all about them. It doesn't impress me at all. If you want to impress me, show me how you are a hard grafter and have a bit of common sense, that counts for far more than what you think you know about cars right now.

As for how easy it is to get an apprenticeship now, we have been increasing our numbers of apprentices lately and I do think the industry is starting to grow. There is also a dearth of good mechanics out there so there will be places who do want good apprentices. You will simply have to get out there and ask them.

I would seriously advise you do a bit of research first though, particularly with regards as to whether you want to do it at all, it can be a hard ****ing grind at times.

ive been counting down the days to when im finished school since i started and this is what ive wanted to do all along whats the best way to look for one ? sen hem an email/letter with a cv or go and actaully talk to them face to face ?

Chemical Byrne

mech123, I know I'm lecturing now so sorry for that but believe it or not I was you 10 years ago. I loved machinery and cars, couldn't wait to finish up in school and I signed up to an apprenticeship with a dealer because I wouldn't listen to my dad's advice and the advice of all around me telling me I was wasting myself. I stayed at it for a year before realising that they were all right.

This was at a large, modern main dealership. Even the qualified mechs with years of experience were on shíte money (bear in mind this was boom time). They worked on brand new stuff but they all drove 10yr old+ crocks of shít, auld mondeos and the like. Anyone older than 40 was groaning with bad backs from years of pulling, bending and mullocking around.

I eventually heeded my families advice and packed it in, went to college and became an engineer. It's much much better salary than a mech but still not a lot. Even on engineer salary it'd be a struggle to build/buy a house and raise a family. I can't imagine how it would be on a mechanic salary. Unless your partner has a very good job, forget about it.

There's no such thing as a well off mechanic. Of course I understand you should do what you love, but in all honestly now, as much as you like it now when you're very young, how much are you gooing to like it later. In your 40's or 50s are you really going to look forward spending a wet winters day fluting around in the cold with dirty oil, bollixed wiring and hopping your knuckles off things and flaking and bating at rusted in fastenings?


By all means though, take a year out after school and work in a garage or dealership for a while. Get some experience of it.
But for goodness sake, work hard and get a good solid leaving cert for yourself. It will stand to you.
How are you doing academically? If you are good you have a duty to yourself to be the absolute best you can be, maximising your potential.


Don't be the guy I could have been now looking back regretting that I didn't listen to those around me telling me I was making a bad move and wasting my potential in life.

A good university education gives so much more than the core skills learnt in the modules.

Toyotafanboi

mech123 wrote: »

yeah im sure. the living isnt too bad if you work hard. its a steady job where as a carpenter or builder ? there fcucked if theres a recession. as said i love cars and want to work on them for the rest of my life despite all the bad stuff ive read about being a mechanic coming from all sides of the world.

This sounds like 17 year old me.

Chemical Byrne wrote: »

No offence, but an apprenticeship is an awful waste of brains if you have the ability to do better. Long term, you'd be seriously limiting your earning potential.

Don't get me wrong, I wanted to do an apprenticeship when I left school. Father talked me out of it fairly sharpish and now I am very very thankful that he did.

This is pretty much exactly what dad said to 17 year old me.

No, I didn't listen, worked in a few auto factors, worked as a service advisor, eventually got a start serving my time, got let go mid 2009 due to lack of work.

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Or if you want to feel a bit better, someone is offering you €195 cash a week to learn a trade.

The trade I chose (for my sins) was to become an Architectural technician, it takes 4 years. It cost me €2.5k per year to get trained, plus materials (laptop, drawing board, stationary, many computer programmes, paper reams, plotting costs, hard hats, boots, surveying equipment etc). 95% of the time you have to do it away from home too, so you have rent, dining, transport etc.

So I had to work a job Saturday and Sunday, to pay money to work a job Monday to Friday to get a job in the future. After September 1st your 1st day off is 25 December, then your next day off after that is May 1st the following year.

A lot of people do this.

Don't feel too bad, €195 in the lamh for a 9-5 to learn your trade while living at home with evenings and weekends off isn't too shabby

Then I did this and i'm starting on the kind of money I could only have achieved after maybe 5 years in a garage and as along term prospect I stand to earn much more, the work is much lighter too. But the best part is getting to enjoy cars as a past time, I have a good set-up at home for doing a bit of work on them and in reality I would probably be sick to the back teeth of them if I was 9-5ing with them.

Very few day to day mechanics have project cars or a garage full of mad **** at home in my experience. Why? Lack of enthusiast due to day job, lack of time/ energy due to day job? Lack of disposable income? Look at the best projects on any site, none are by day job mechanics.

Just another opinion. You dont have to be a mechanic just because you like cars.

mech123

sorry lads boards wont let me edit anything for some reason... college isnt for me at all. i just dont like the idea of it. i prefer to be working everyday and getting a wage.

Toyotafanboi

College from a young mans perspective is 25% drinking pints, 25% young wans, 40% banter and 10% graft. Then at the end you get a degree. It's great value for money!

mech123

what are you doing now ? no offence but its not really your place to tell me not to do what i like becuase you did it for a year and dropped out because you didnt like it. i know plenty of mechanics that have lots of nice things. one is just qualified and has a 400+ bhp r34 4 door skyline aswell as his daily driver which is a nice car too. he works in a very small garage and the wages are nothing special.

TherapyBoy

I don't like the idea of it. i prefer to be working everyday and getting a wage.

It might get you a better wage with nicer tools & working on cleaner equipment. Suck it up & try it.

Chemical Byrne

A shít wage. No offence.

Not for you? Pick the right course of study, sure, and it will.
You like cars, do automotive engineering. You might become an agent for a manufacturer, overseeing and dealing with recalls, gathering info on common failures, devising strategies for solving reliability problems. All hands on technical work. Work that challenges you every day. Work that when you go home you can say, "yeah, I solved that problem today that no-one else could fix". A lot better than draining oil and hammering out knackered bushings for a living.


I'll leave you with this to ponder about:

I've had plenty of people comment to me over the years that they regretted not going to college and making do with a trade or one type or another. I'd say probably a third or half the trademen under 35 I've encoutnered in my line of work have expressed a similar sentiment.

Can you guess for me how many of my colleagues said to me they regretted going to university and that they should have done a FAS apprenticship instead?
I'd say you have a fair idea how many. A double amputee could count them on his fingers.