Thinking about apprenticeship, help

bucketybuck

mech123 wrote: »

@bucketybuck .. what do apprentices wherever you work start off doing ?

The short but most accurate answer is, whatever the **** they are told to do.

Toyotafanboi

bucketybuck wrote: »

The short but most accurate answer is, whatever the **** they are told to do.

you speak very strongly about what you expect from your trainees.

out of curiosity (and if you don't mind me asking)

what is your recruitment process like?
what scale of business is it?
and i suppose most importantly what do you offer upon qualification?

say this guy got the job with you at age 17, where could he expect to be with you at age 27, (providing he was keen to learn and progress) in terms of wages/ benefits etc?

bucketybuck

The long answer, for the first few months they shut up and do what they are told.

The first months are when apprentices demonstrate that they are prepared to work and are prepared to listen. They will be doing a lot of drudgework, they will be sweeping floors, emptying bins, running errands and digging in with the real mechanics where needed, taking wheels off and holding bars and crap like that. They could easily be out cleaning the yard and cutting weeds if the boss tells them to, thats all part of the deal because like it or not they are bottom of the food chain.

As they demonstrate that they want to work and want to learn they will spend more and more time working with the mechanics. Its up to them at that point, if they get stuck in and show they can be left alone to do jobs themselves they will get the jobs. As time goes on and they prove their work is good they will get more jobs and will keep learning.

If they don't bother pushing themselves, or spend half their morning running to the toilets to hide then they will probably stay cleaning the floors until they eventually get let go for being useless.

A few years later they might pass their exams. At that point they might get a few quid extra and get told to get back to work.

Toyotafanboi

bucketybuck wrote: »

A few years later they might pass their exams. At that point they might get a few quid extra and get told to get back to work.

at the same time they are real human beings, not dogs and if they have chosen a low wage career, upon qualifying and proving competence, they still deserve another mans respect and not be spoken to or treated like crap, no?

mech123

bucketybuck wrote: »

The long answer, for the first few months they shut up and do what they are told.

The first months are when apprentices demonstrate that they are prepared to work and are prepared to listen. They will be doing a lot of drudgework, they will be sweeping floors, emptying bins, running errands and digging in with the real mechanics where needed, taking wheels off and holding bars and crap like that. They could easily be out cleaning the yard and cutting weeds if the boss tells them to, thats all part of the deal because like it or not they are bottom of the food chain.

As they demonstrate that they want to work and want to learn they will spend more and more time working with the mechanics. Its up to them at that point, if they get stuck in and show they can be left alone to do jobs themselves they will get the jobs. As time goes on and they prove their work is good they will get more jobs and will keep learning.

If they don't bother pushing themselves, or spend half their morning running to the toilets to hide then they will probably stay cleaning the floors until they eventually get let go for being useless.

A few years later they might pass their exams. At that point they might get a few quid extra and get told to get back to work.

the floor only needs so much cleaning... it cant take a whole 3 years :P

Toyotafanboi

you'd be surprised, of a rainy day, the place is fairly dirty, pretty much instantly and the cars just keep coming.

wait until you have the likes of a Santa Fe of whatever that's spent it's life on a farm, then driven 30 miles in the snow to get to you. the amount of crud and ****e that will fall off of that car onto you and everything around you is quite literally unbelievable.

bucketybuck

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

you speak very strongly about what you expect from your trainees.

The best apprentices and mechanics by far are those prepared to work, so I much prefer to weed out the bluffers early. The lad who gets stuck in no matter how ****ty the job? He will win in the long run. The guy on his phone every ten minutes who thinks he shouldn't have to empty bins, he can jog on.

what is your recruitment process like?
what scale of business is it?
and i suppose most importantly what do you offer upon qualification?

Our recruitment process is informal, simply because we get so many approaches, so many lads walking in the door and asking us for a start. If we are hiring we judge them case by case, if you have contacts that helps get you in the door but attitude from a young lad plays a huge part.

We are a main dealer, currently have around 20 lads on the floor. At the minute we have 5 apprentices at varying stages of development, and luckily for us some very good lads as well. Theres about 4 others who we got rid off this year for generally being useless.

What do we offer on qualification? We offer a job, there is a serious lack of good mechanics out there and we are expanding, so we don't want to lose good lads when we have them. That only applies to the good ones though, there are a few that did qualify, but they were medicore so we didn't cry too many tears when they left.

say this guy got the job with you at age 17, where could he expect to be with you at age 27, (providing he was keen to learn and progress) in terms of wages/ benefits etc?

The average wage for an experienced mechanic with us is around €15 p/h, with plenty of overtime and breakdown work available. If a lad is there ten years from apprenticeship and is doing a good job we will be happy to speak about higher rates, we don't want to lose the good ones. He has to offer something though, he has to be very good at the job, like I said before, there are plenty of fitters out there, we want technicians.

Toyotafanboi

that's a genuinely great useful post for young lads to read. we should sticky that for every other week when this question comes up.

are you working with a premium brand or multiple brands? how do you think your wages stack up to competitors?

bucketybuck

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

at the same time they are real human beings, not dogs and if they have chosen a low wage career, upon qualifying and proving competence, they still deserve another mans respect and not be spoken to or treated like crap, no?

Whats your point?

Earn respect, get respect. We are a business and we act like it at all times, if you add value you will be looked after, if you don't then you won't. Its a hard industry, but nobody is being treated like a dog.

mech123

bucketybuck wrote: »

Whats your point?

Earn respect, get respect. We are a business and we act like it at all times, if you add value you will be looked after, if you don't then you won't. Its a hard industry, but nobody is being treated like a dog.

you talked about people being on their phone etc. are you not at work now ?

bucketybuck

mech123 wrote: »

you talked about people being on their phone etc. are you not at work now ?

Yes, I'm in the office doing paperwork.

I'm also very good at what I do with the results to back it up. When you are very good at what you do you are welcome to play on facebook all day if you want.

Unfortunately for you, you're a wannabe apprentice with everything to prove so I wouldn't advise it just yet.

Chemical Byrne

mech123 wrote: »

you talked about people being on their phone etc. are you not at work now ?

Just what an employer wants to hear from a greenhorn apprentice - smart arsed backchat.

Toyotafanboi

bucketybuck wrote: »

Whats your point?

Earn respect, get respect. We are a business and we act like it at all times, if you add value you will be looked after, if you don't then you won't. Its a hard industry, but nobody is being treated like a dog.

no, that post just came across as the alter opposite of what you were trying to convey; that young lads shouldn't feel entitled to jobs, but that post gave a certain air (imo) that even the qualified guys should be happy to take what they are offered from yourselves and not strive for good remuneration. might just be a case of crossed wires, misinterpretation.

mech123 wrote: »

you talked about people being on their phone etc. are you not at work now ?

sounds like he may be the owner (or close to) of his "job", i don't think he's under a lift on his iphone 4s right now.

bucketybuck

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

are you working with a premium brand or multiple brands? how do you think your wages stack up to competitors?

A premium brand with direct control for one dealer and indirect supervision for 8 others.

Our wages are pretty standard. I know of some dealers with higher wages, but honestly its because their staff turnover is so bad they have to pay the premium, theres plenty of places paying less as well.

There are a few lads here getting between €40/50000 a year, but those are the guys offering the added value so they negotiated higher wages, plus they would do a lot of out of hours work to get to that figure. Its nice money but you have to give up your free time to get it.

mech123

i would say hes probably slacking from sweeping the floor :P that wasnt a smart arse answer but if your not the owner i would seriously hope you dont think its okay to sit dossing lol.

what im really hoping for here is info on the tool side of things from someone in the trade, what does an apprentice buy while he starts off ??

bucketybuck

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

no, that post just came across as the alter opposite of what you were trying to convey; that young lads shouldn't feel entitled to jobs, but that post gave a certain air (imo) that even the qualified guys should be happy to take what they are offered from yourselves and not strive for good remuneration. might just be a case of crossed wires, misinterpretation.

It is both I guess. You really can't have a sense of entitlement in this industry, you will just get dumped on your ass because its a hard grind and nobody needs that type of employee.

But if you prove yourself then we absolutely will look after you, a workshop is only as good as its mechanics and we know that.

CIP4

@op

I just kind of glanced through your thread there. I was probably a bit like you a few years ago too maybe to a lesser extent but I certainly would have loved to do an apprenticeship in mechanics. But as I got into 5th and 6th year the more I thought much like yourself about the low starting wages and ultimately low enough maximum wage you'll earn qualified. So I was lucky enough to get a high enough leaving cert in 2012. So I decided to become an engineer as I always had a huge interest in how things work. Fast forward on 3 years and I'm now in final year of process and chemical engineering which I love I have a graduate job got for next year almost a year before I finish on more money than I would know how to spend with huge opportunities to earn a lot more.

Now the reason I'm saying all this is people suggested engineering to you. But ultimately if you don't have a decent ability in science and maths your wasting your time trying to do any kind of decent level 8 engineering degree as you will be using complex enough maths daily.

So my point with all this is if your the type that has no interest in school or college which for decent degrees it is a lot of work then fcuk it go of and do the apprenticeship. I mean people are probably forgetting that chances are your only 17 or 18 sure if you get sick of it after a year so what move on go back to college do something else your still outrageously young. I'm 21 myself and in someways feel to young to be finishing college.

In terms of the job I'd say as mentioned above cars and main dealer is the best route to go. A word of advice for interviews do not come across cocky or say you already know a lot about cars. All employers want to hear is yes I have A good basic understanding of cars and have a love for them and I want to learn and am willing to start at the bottom and work hard to become a qualified mechanic. As nobody likes someone that thinks they know it all its a terrible character trait not saying you are like that or anything just a general comment. Apply to as many places as possible with a decent cv worth getting help to write it properly.

Just to finish up my own plan is to buy/build a house with a decent garage and slowly kit it out myself with a lift and be able to work away on cars as a hobby. Start with buying cheap basic ones and work up. Ultimately it doesn't matter what you want to do once you are passionate and have a love for it that's what matters. Your young and can easily turn around and do something completely different at 25 if you think it's hardship or the money is Sh!t or whatever.

Best of luck with it.

mech123

thanks .. i would stick it tho, if you know more or less what your in for with wages (that tbh arent actually all that bad once qualified) that wouldnt be a reason to stop working as a mechanic :P

mech123

mech123 wrote: »

so being able to service a car, do brake work, suspension work and lots of other simple everyday things isn't useful ??

wait... all these other apprentices doing other trades getting payed more 'dont know anything useful' either so why are they getting payed more ?

If the money is the factor here I'd suggest you go working for Advance or similar as a tyre fitter, oil changer.

mech123

Augeo wrote: »

If the money is the factor here I'd suggest you go working for Advance or similar as a tyre fitter, oil changer.

so your encouraging someone to be a complete failure and not bother qualifying as anything ? money is a problem with every apprentice mechanic getting less than 200 a week before tax ?

mech123

mech123 wrote: »

so your encouraging someone to be a complete failure and not bother qualifying as anything ? money is a problem with every apprentice mechanic getting less than 200 a week before tax ?

You won't last p1ssing time as an apprentice with your attitude. Also you seem to have a huge attitude with earning less than €200/week as a 1st year apprentice, you won't be happy as well as having an awful attitude.

You'd be as well off in Advance on €10/€12 an hour telling people they need rear shocks

I don't consider unqualified folk to be failures btw. If you do than a mechanic ain't the job for you imo.

runawaybishop

mech123 wrote: »

so your encouraging someone to be a complete failure and not bother qualifying as anything ? money is a problem with every apprentice mechanic getting less than 200 a week before tax ?

You are getting paid to learn, it could be a lot worse.

Sleepy

I come from a totally different background professionally: IT so I can't advise on apprenticeships having gone the college route myself. One thing is the same throughout the modern working world though: you'll never know it all. There's always going to be new stuff you'll need to learn about, and new opportunities to specialise.

Have a think about how different a car from 2000 is to one on the forecourt now: far less serviceable parts, far more electronics. Now take that forward another 15 years. We're in the early days of electric cars (which there's **** all serviceable parts on), self-driving cars (that you'd need a masters degree in electronic engineering to diagnose problems with, nevermind repair). By even 5 years after you qualify there might not be much of what you love left to be done in the job. It might all just be swapping batteries and black box components that you're legally barred from opening up to fix if you're not working for a main dealer. And if you're thinking "sure I'll just open a classic car specialist garage", ask yourself, how many mechanics with decades of experience more than you will be looking to do the same? And where will you get the capital to start a garage given that it's not a high-paying profession?

It may well be that there's more money in other car related areas already tbh: paint free dent repair, automotive electrics, panel beating etc. Then again, with so much bodywork already being made from plastics and batteries weighing a bloddy ton, what's to say there'd be much metal left in cars to work with in 20 years?

mech123

Sleepy wrote: »

I come from a totally different background professionally: IT so I can't advise on apprenticeships having gone the college route myself. One thing is the same throughout the modern working world though: you'll never know it all. There's always going to be new stuff you'll need to learn about, and new opportunities to specialise.

Have a think about how different a car from 2000 is to one on the forecourt now: far less serviceable parts, far more electronics. Now take that forward another 15 years. We're in the early days of electric cars (which there's **** all serviceable parts on), self-driving cars (that you'd need a masters degree in electronic engineering to diagnose problems with, nevermind repair). By even 5 years after you qualify there might not be much of what you love left to be done in the job. It might all just be swapping batteries and black box components that you're legally barred from opening up to fix if you're not working for a main dealer. And if you're thinking "sure I'll just open a classic car specialist garage", ask yourself, how many mechanics with decades of experience more than you will be looking to do the same? And where will you get the capital to start a garage given that it's not a high-paying profession?

It may well be that there's more money in other car related areas already tbh: paint free dent repair, automotive electrics, panel beating etc. Then again, with so much bodywork already being made from plastics and batteries weighing a bloddy ton, what's to say there'd be much metal left in cars to work with in 20 years?

your getting a bit ahead of everything there. diesel and petrol is not going anywhere any time soon so theres no point even talking about it.

mech123

Augeo wrote: »

You won't last p1ssing time as an apprentice with your attitude. Also you seem to have a huge attitude with earning less than €200/week as a 1st year apprentice, you won't be happy as well as having an awful attitude.

You'd be as well off in Advance on €10/€12 an hour telling people they need rear shocks

I don't consider unqualified folk to be failures btw. If you do than a mechanic ain't the job for you imo.

what attitude do you gather from this ? i stood up for myself after you recommended i should change tyres for the rest of my life.

Toyotafanboi

mech123 wrote: »

your getting a bit ahead of everything there. diesel and petrol is not going anywhere any time soon so theres no point even talking about it.

as Clarkson once said, have you ever watched a television program called "The News"?

Diesel technology has pretty much peaked and it's still not very good. then just a fortnight ago it's bubble was well and truly busy. Diesel is going somewhere pretty fast.

i'm not saying it'l be gone by this day next week but it is most certainly being eradicated as a concept in private motor cars.

mech123

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

as Clarkson once said, have you ever watched a television program called "The News"?

Diesel technology has pretty much peaked and it's still not very good. then just a fortnight ago it's bubble was well and truly busy. Diesel is going somewhere pretty fast.

i'm not saying it'l be gone by this day next week but it is most certainly being eradicated as a concept in private motor cars.

it will still be there when i retire.

Toyotafanboi

mech123 wrote: »

it will still be there when i retire.

in new cars? no. it'l be dead in the water before you are fully qualified.

mech123

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

in new cars? no. it'l be dead in the water before you are fully qualified.

so diesel and petrol cars will be extinct in 3/4 years time ? how about trucks ? are they going to make electirc trucks and tractors and diggers etc ? electric cars have proven to be a failure so far.

Toyotafanboi

mech123 wrote: »

so diesel and petrol cars will be extinct in 3/4 years time ? how about trucks ? are they going to make electirc trucks and tractors and diggers etc ? electric cars have proven to be a failure so far.

i never said extinct in 4 years time.

have you read either of these threads, for example?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057495903
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057377433

i also never mentioned trucks/ plant/ generators etc.

electric cars are actually finally coming to a point where they are fairly usable. this would probably be a good place to be within the industry (Working for Nissan/ Renault or the likes who are pushing realistic electric options)

you can buy a new Nissan Leaf for less than a new diesel Golf and drive it for 90 miles from a 30 minute charge.