The Peds Peddler - 400m & The Mile

Chivito550

IvoryTower wrote: »

The middle distance group at the moment, then in a few weeks i believe ill be doing 400 specific stuff from then on. I'm going to race the 800 as my secondary distance rather than the mile(but I will continue the mile trials because they're great fun!). The coach knows my goals and where I need to improve so I think I just need to be patient and do what I'm told

Mile time trials fun?? :eek::eek:

Yeh if you trust your coach then go with that. But remember, if you can't break 26 for 200m, then it's unlikely you'd go much faster than 57, no matter how much fitter you have gotten over the Mile and 5K. Running 800s is very useful for fitness, and it's definitely good to run them, but if you are targeting the 400m, then the 200m needs to be the secondary distance.

IvoryTower

Fun in the I love torture and pb's kind of way!

I guess in my head it doesn't really matter what my secondary race is cause given the chance I wouldn't mind racing 100,200 & 800 anyway, but I want to train specifically for the 400. The likelihood of being able to run any of them after doing a 400 is probably quite slim anyway!

Chivito550

IvoryTower wrote: »

Fun in the I love torture and pb's kind of way!

I guess in my head it doesn't really matter what my secondary race is cause given the chance I wouldn't mind racing 100,200 & 800 anyway, but I want to train specifically for the 400. The likelihood of being able to run any of them after doing a 400 is probably quite slim anyway!

Have you any sprinters that you will be able to train with?

IvoryTower

Yep we have a sprint group so if the times suit I will be able to do sessions with them

IvoryTower

Tuesday- 5x800 - I was absolutely knackered for various reasons. Thankfully 2 members who had already finished their session ran with me for mine as well. I was very grateful, you really can't beat being in a club. If it wasn't for them I would've done 1x800 and called it a day. Completed the session and the times were okay as well.

Thurs - hills I couldn't make it to the track on time so instead I done a hill session, really enjoyed it. 10 reps @ approx 75sec with 2.30 recovery, not sure the exact distance though

Sat - 10x400 - The track was open so I done the Thursday session I had missed. It was the hardest wind I've ever felt running on the track. My times were a bit all over the place as I tried to get to grips with it but it was a good tough session and I felt great after it

Sun AM - Gym - Aim was to get leg work in but not so much that I wouldn't be able to train properly on Tues. It's certainly a learning process as I'm way too sore this morning! I also barely done any core work cause my lower ab area was still a bit sore, possibly from the hill work ,or more embarrassingly still from last Sundays gym work! I will try fit some core work into the middle of the week so that if I do a hard session on Sundays it's not a complete shock to the system. I used to love going to the gym daily so I should get back into it quickly enough. This time 4 years ago I could easily do 3x10 pull ups(now I do sets of 3-4)

Sun PM - Easy miles, hoped to ease the doms! There's no stopping them it seems

The Week Ahead - Praying my legs loosen up a bit for tomorrows session. Do some mid week core work. Work on running with my arms along the side of my body rather than waving in front, particularly towards the end of reps.

Louth Masters CC - Another win for the men and women to cap off a great cc season for the club. I would like to be involved next year, will see how things pan out over the summer

IvoryTower

07/12/2015

Mon - jog to loosen up, didn't work.

Tues - 5x800, legs were still in bits of gym on Sunday, struggled through it

Thurs - 10 x 400. Great session, all times bang on, finding sessions easier to finish since I started working on form towards end of reps. Less flailing!

Sat - jingle bells. My legs were shattered but I still wanted to race this as there were something like 170 from club running. Soon as the race started my legs felt like a ton of bricks, struggled through with a woeful 21.03. Was fairly pissed off tbh but at least I have the sub 20 in navan.

Sun am - gym , legs & core. Lightened the load and I think I nailed it. Good session with hopefully no doms that last a week!

Sun pm- jog about 5 miles


Week ahead- getting up in morning to roll and stretch. Hoping for the first time in 2 weeks to feel good on a tues and blast a session out with no excuses. I can't even listen to myself moaning anymore never mind my poor training group!

IvoryTower

14/12/2015

Tues 5x800

Thurs 10x400

Sat- Gym

I felt great for both track sessions, really enjoyed them and dying afterwards. It feels like i'm training hard, it also shows me that I was really doing **** all for most of the year!

I didn't run much this week because I had a slight pain in my left leg around the shin area and was a bit nervous about it. I had a friend who's a physical therapist look at it on Sat and she basically said i'm grand! I'm going to switch out any road running for grass until I can't feel it anymore.

Booked my place in Althlone Baseline Meet on wed running 300m. I'm absolutely bricking it and super excited. Being one of 8 in a race is a bit nerve wrecking. No where to hide! I need all the practice I can get though. I shall be mostly on youtube watching videos of how to set up blocks today

IvoryTower

Althlone Baseline Meet

First indoor race done! Mixed feelings about it. The sickening nerves beforehand were incredibly sickening! Watching the other races I could see they were of mixed standards, I assume that was down to people not giving in times so they were just lumped in together. There was no clock on display so I couldn't see how fast they were which might have been for the better!

I got there a bit late, according to the schedule I had about 20 minutes to warm up. I went out and done a mile on the track and then inside to do some strides and practice using the block upstairs. Then they called my name to go down to waiting area. The other guys all looked young and strong, ****! There was one guy older than me from Kerry, Kevin Lynch, but you could tell this guy knew what he was at! We ended up waiting for about 45 minutes due to some technical issue. So then eventually after about 300 trips to the toilet and a few more strides I got the chance to line up.

Nerves had full control of the body at this stage, even felt a bit dizzy from it. I was in lane 5 with the Kerryman in lane 6. I set up the blocks like I saw on youtube On your marks, set, bang...felt like a bad start, it certainly felt easier when I was practicing it. by time I had got to the end of the first corner my body felt like it was in shock. I can only really compare it to may last 400 and this was not the same feeling I had then. The kerryman on my right took off and I think by the second corner they had all passed me. My plan was to kick once I got to break point, I think I mustered up a little kick but by the end of that straight my legs were jelly so I just tried to hold my form together until the end. There was one guy a second ahead of me but I certainly wasn't gaining on him. My first last place, 42.3 seconds. The order in times were 37,38,38,41,42

It was hard not to be disheartened after it. I haven't done any speed work yet and I would never have been able to compete with 3 out of the 4 guys either way. If I had of been in a race with slower people and got the same time id probably have thought it was great!

I'll upload the video later, i think..

TLTR - 42.3

Chivito550

IvoryTower wrote: »

Althlone Baseline Meet

First indoor race done! Mixed feelings about it. The sickening nerves beforehand were incredibly sickening! Watching the other races I could see they were of mixed standards, I assume that was down to people not giving in times so they were just lumped in together. There was no clock on display so I couldn't see how fast they were which might have been for the better!

I got there a bit late, according to the schedule I had about 20 minutes to warm up. I went out and done a mile on the track and then inside to do some strides and practice using the block upstairs. Then they called my name to go down to waiting area. The other guys all looked young and strong, ****! There was one guy older than me from Kerry, Kevin Lynch, but you could tell this guy knew what he was at! We ended up waiting for about 45 minutes due to some technical issue. So then eventually after about 300 trips to the toilet and a few more strides I got the chance to line up.

Nerves had full control of the body at this stage, even felt a bit dizzy from it. I was in lane 5 with the Kerryman in lane 6. I set up the blocks like I saw on youtube On your marks, set, bang...felt like a bad start, it certainly felt easier when I was practicing it. by time I had got to the end of the first corner my body felt like it was in shock. I can only really compare it to may last 400 and this was not the same feeling I had then. The kerryman on my right took off and I think by the second corner they had all passed me. My plan was to kick once I got to break point, I think I mustered up a little kick but by the end of that straight my legs were jelly so I just tried to hold my form together until the end. There was one guy a second ahead of me but I certainly wasn't gaining on him. My first last place, 42.3 seconds. The order in times were 37,38,38,41,42

It was hard not to be disheartened after it. I haven't done any speed work yet and I would never have been able to compete with 3 out of the 4 guys either way. If I had of been in a race with slower people and got the same time id probably have thought it was great!

I'll upload the video later, i think..

TLTR - 42.3

That’s pretty decent. A training partner of mine, who mainly runs 100 and 200 ran 42.0 at that meet last year, and he ended up going 58.2 in the 400m outdoors on 3 occasions come the summer. Given your PB in the 400m that time in the 300m is exactly what I would have predicted. Not sure how you can be expecting much more than that when all your training is middle distance training.

That’s a nice marker to lay down early in the season. You’d go quicker with more experience indoors alone. It’s good practice for the 400m indoors after Christmas.

Don’t worry about how far others are ahead. Run your own race.

IvoryTower

I guess I was hoping just by being fitter I might be a bit faster than my last attempt, but I had done speed work for that so I'm probably doing okay to be at 42 without the speed work. My goal this year is to get 56 in the summer.

Chivito550

IvoryTower wrote: »

I guess I was hoping just by being fitter I might be a bit faster than my last attempt, but I had done speed work for that so I'm probably doing okay to be at 42 without the speed work. My goal this year is to get 56 in the summer.

Yeh it doesn’t really work like that I’m afraid. By being fit you’ll run well enough over 400m, but you’ll always be limited by your 100m and 200m ability. If you don’t improve those then improvements will be minimal based solely on middle distance endurance. That’s the wrong type of endurance. You need speed endurance. 3 x 300 off 7 minutes, 5 x 200m off 6 minutes, split 400s, 6 x 150m with walk back recovery. Then for speed work you need to be doing block starts, 60s from 3 point starts, that kind of thing (obviously easing into it slowly so not to risk injury). If you do all that you will run 56. I find it hard to believe you will run that time off 800/1500 training though. I know damn good 800 and 1500 runners who can only run around 56 for 400m. I’m talking guys who’d be around 2:03 range for 800m. Sure one lad in my club in Melbourne who was just off the back of a 1:58 was in my race in a 400m soon after, and he was only around 1.5 seconds ahead of me. In that same race another 800 guy from a neighbouring club who had recently gone 1:57, was even closer to me. Less than a second if I recall. 800/1500 training is not sprinting, while the 400m is and endurance sprint. You need to train your body specifically for it. Running things like 5 x 800 or 10 x 400 does not prepare your body for the demands of sprinting.

It's a good time though for this time of year.

Myles Splitz

IvoryTower wrote: »

I guess I was hoping just by being fitter I might be a bit faster than my last attempt, but I had done speed work for that so I'm probably doing okay to be at 42 without the speed work. My goal this year is to get 56 in the summer.

Personally I think this is the right mentality to be in at this time of the year. This is a bench mark and the winter is where you should be. Winter is for building the engine even for 800m runners

Here are some examples of winter training of 800m top runners (1.43-1.46 PBs)

1.46m 800m/1500m runner

Monday| AM 60 min easy |PM 3-4 x 6 min tempo
Tuesday| 60 min easy- moderate
Wednesday| 5x60m w/ 2 min rec, 15x400 @ 5k w/ 1 min
Thursday| 60 min easy
Friday| 60 min easy - moderate
Saturday| 2x1700m hilly trail loop + 6x850m w/ 2 min rec (3k-5kpace)
Sunday| 60 min easy

46.8/1.43 min 400/800 runner (Former European Champion)


Monday| AM 30 min easy |PM Hills: 2x (150-200-300-200m-150 2 min rec) 5 min between sets
Tuesday|AM 30 min easy| 10/7/5/3 min progressive (from tempo) 2-3 min rec
Wednesday|AM 50 min easy|PM Gym
Thursday|AM 30 min easy| 5x80m + 2000/1 mile/1200/1000 @ 5k w/ 400 jog rec
Friday|AM 50 min easy| Gym
Saturday| 8x850 hilly dirt loop 2 min rec
Sunday | 60 min easy

As you can see the coach in question puts a heavy reliance on aerobic work in the winter but as long as turnover work is maintained during this period it will come good when it matters in summer (though you will see benefits come indoors)

Solid marker to put down. Reckon there is no reason why you can't get in the 56 range this year

Chivito550

Myles Splitz wrote: »

Personally I think this is the right mentality to be in at this time of the year. This is a bench mark and the winter is where you should be. Winter is for building the engine even for 800m runners

Here are some examples of winter training of 800m top runners (1.43-1.46 PBs)

1.46m 800m/1500m runner

Monday| AM 60 min easy |PM 3-4 x 6 min tempo
Tuesday| 60 min easy- moderate
Wednesday| 5x60m w/ 2 min rec, 15x400 @ 5k w/ 1 min
Thursday| 60 min easy
Friday| 60 min easy - moderate
Saturday| 2x1700m hilly trail loop + 6x850m w/ 2 min rec (3k-5kpace)
Sunday| 60 min easy

46.8/1.43 min 400/800 runner (Former European Champion)


Monday| AM 30 min easy |PM Hills: 2x (150-200-300-200m-150 2 min rec) 5 min between sets
Tuesday|AM 30 min easy| 10/7/5/3 min progressive (from tempo) 2-3 min rec
Wednesday|AM 50 min easy|PM Gym
Thursday|AM 30 min easy| 5x80m + 2000/1 mile/1200/1000 @ 5k w/ 400 jog rec
Friday|AM 50 min easy| Gym
Saturday| 8x850 hilly dirt loop 2 min rec
Sunday | 60 min easy

As you can see the coach in question puts a heavy reliance on aerobic work in the winter but as long as turnover work is maintained during this period it will come good when it matters in summer (though you will see benefits come indoors)

Solid marker to put down. Reckon there is no reason why you can't get in the 56 range this year

But he is targeting the 400m, so why do this training? I know no 400m runner who does this. None of my coaches have ever done anything remotely like this, and we would be run into the ground to gain fitness in the winter.

Honestly, if guys who run 2:03ish are only hitting 56 (and I know tons from my time in Australia, as they'd regularly run 400m races at Shield meets for speed), then I fail to see how Ivory will run that time off this kind of training, given his 800m ability is way below the level of low 2 minutes.

Oiriallach

Myles Splitz wrote: »

46.8/1.43 min 400/800 runner (Former European Champion)

I'm not sure if I'd describe someone who has run 46.8 for the 400m and 1:43 for the 800m as a 400/800 runner. To me that's an 800m specialist, full stop, who also happens to run the odd 400m race. 46.8 is probably equivalent to about 1:48.5/1:49.0.

As Chivito has said a few times on this thread, there are specific speed endurance sessions that need to be done as a core part of your training if the 400m is your main event. Sessions that probably neither a 200m or 800m runner would bother with (at least not to any great extent).

I remember as a self-coached teenager trying to move up from the 100/200m to the 400m and thinking that it was just a matter of having a mixture of "endurance" training (sessions that the 800/1500m guys would do) and "speed" training (sessions that the 100/200m guys would do) in my schedule. I persisted with that for a couple of years without making any great breakthrough in the 400m. Then I got myself a coach and the one thing that stood out immediately was the amount of specific "speed endurance" training which he had me doing.

Myles Splitz

Chivito550 wrote: »

But he is targeting the 400m, so why do this training? I know no 400m runner who does this. None of my coaches have ever done anything remotely like this, and we would be run into the ground to gain fitness in the winter.

Honestly, if guys who run 2:03ish are only hitting 56 (and I know tons from my time in Australia, as they'd regularly run 400m races at Shield meets for speed), then I fail to see how Ivory will run that time off this kind of training, given his 800m ability is way below the level of low 2 minutes.

Because he is aiming to run the mile as well as the 400 so effectively will be a middle distance as per him training with middle distance folk in his club also.

Funny enough one of the lads from our club (400/800 runner - 50.87/1.59.91) was actually running last night also.

His sessions last week - 12x400 off 1 min rec and 8x200+5x50m

Turnover is important and should not be ignored.

It's pretty interesting the same coach who gave me those sample training sessions also talked about an athlete he had who was coming from a 200m background (21.48) who was training for 400/800.

There was a completely different approach here given his physiological workings and his genetic makeup (actually produced more lactate running a tempo than higher intensity shorter intervals)

Even here his winter training comprised of 1k reps/800m dirt loops etc. His PB over 400m actually came two years after he made the step up and since ended up running 1.44.6 over 800m.

Myles Splitz

Oiriallach wrote: »

I'm not sure if I'd describe someone who has run 46.8 for the 400m and 1:43 for the 800m as a 400/800 runner. To me that's an 800m specialist, full stop, who also happens to run the odd 400m race. 46.8 is probably equivalent to about 1:48.5/1:49.0.

As Chivito has said a few times on this thread, there are specific speed endurance sessions that need to be done as a core part of your training if the 400m is your main event. Sessions that probably neither a 200m or 800m runner would bother with (at least not to any great extent).

I remember as a self-coached teenager trying to move up from the 100/200m to the 400m and thinking that it was just a matter of having a mixture of "endurance" training (sessions that the 800/1500m guys would do) and "speed" training (sessions that the 100/200m guys would do) in my schedule. I persisted with that for a couple of years without making any great breakthrough in the 400m. Then I got myself a coach and the one thing that stood out immediately was the amount of specific "speed endurance" training which he had me doing.

Regarding the main event unless I missed somewhere along the way OP is aiming for 400 and 1 mile and I think the later is being overlooked.

I am not saying for a second that speed endurance needs to be overlooks and it is definitely something which needs to be addressed but I think given that the OP has just come out of cross country training indoors is not the primary focus and as such I think at this stage of the season aerobic strength work and turnover/acceleration are the more primary training focuses.

IvoryTower

It's really 400 I'm training for. I put the mile in before realising how hard it would be to do both. We're starting our speed endurance after Christmas if that helps!

Chivito550

Myles Splitz wrote: »

Because he is aiming to run the mile as well as the 400 so effectively will be a middle distance as per him training with middle distance folk in his club also.

Funny enough one of the lads from our club (400/800 runner - 50.87/1.59.91) was actually running last night also.

His sessions last week - 12x400 off 1 min rec and 8x200+5x50m

Turnover is important and should not be ignored.

It's pretty interesting the same coach who gave me those sample training sessions also talked about an athlete he had who was coming from a 200m background (21.48) who was training for 400/800.

There was a completely different approach here given his physiological workings and his genetic makeup (actually produced more lactate running a tempo than higher intensity shorter intervals)

Even here his winter training comprised of 1k reps/800m dirt loops etc. His PB over 400m actually came two years after he made the step up and since ended up running 1.44.6 over 800m.

I recall IT saying recently on his log that the mile is no longer a focus, and that the 800m will be a secondary event, and the 400m is the main focus. Given the 400m is the main focus, this is simply not the way to be training for it. You wouldn't run a marathon without LSR's, so why should a 400m runner neglect flat out speed work, and speed endurance, the 2 most important elements to 400m running? It makes no sense to train for an 800 while focusing on a 400m. Better to just focus on the 800m if the right training isn't being done.

If this kind of training was the way to go, then everyone would be doing it. Gregan, Kervick, Murphy, Barr, Morrissey, the lot of them. This is not to say that aerobic endurance isn't important, but the 400m is a sprint, and as my coach in Australia told me many times, your 400m is limited by your 200m.

My first year doing 400m I did not speed work, though I did almost 100% speed endurance. Once I joined a training group, and did regular speed work (along with the other stuff) and listened to Randymann's constant hassling on my log about doing fast stuff, and getting into the gym, my times came down significantly.

Personally, the stuff he is currently doing is fine at this time of the year for 1 day a week. 1 day speed, 1 day speed endurance, 1 day endurance, and 2 days gym. If he wanted to train 6 days, then a 20-30 minute run can be done too. But 200 and 300 reps are the bread and butter of 400m training.

Myles Splitz

Missed the change in focus but just to clarify I never said to neglect these aspects simply change focus at different times of the year. Should always keep in touch with all tenets required for the events specific demands.

Chivito550 wrote: »

I recall IT saying recently on his log that the mile is no longer a focus, and that the 800m will be a secondary event, and the 400m is the main focus. Given the 400m is the main focus, this is simply not the way to be training for it. You wouldn't run a marathon without LSR's, so why should a 400m runner neglect flat out speed work, and speed endurance, the 2 most important elements to 400m running? It makes no sense to train for an 800 while focusing on a 400m. Better to just focus on the 800m if the right training isn't being done.

If this kind of training was the way to go, then everyone would be doing it. Gregan, Kervick, Murphy, Barr, Morrissey, the lot of them. This is not to say that aerobic endurance isn't important, but the 400m is a sprint, and as my coach in Australia told me many times, your 400m is limited by your 200m.

My first year doing 400m I did not speed work, though I did almost 100% speed endurance. Once I joined a training group, and did regular speed work (along with the other stuff) and listened to Randymann's constant hassling on my log about doing fast stuff, and getting into the gym, my times came down significantly.

Personally, the stuff he is currently doing is fine at this time of the year for 1 day a week. 1 day speed, 1 day speed endurance, 1 day endurance, and 2 days gym. If he wanted to train 6 days, then a 20-30 minute run can be done too. But 200 and 300 reps are the bread and butter of 400m training.

IvoryTower

For some reason when I embed the race it doesn't seem to work, here's the link anyway, it starts at 30sec.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2X52Raw80E

IvoryTower

Wed - Athlone 300m race

Thurs - 10 x 400. Was only going to do a few assuming I'd be knackered, I don't think I've ever trained so well! Finished the 10 in a lovely heap at the end

Sat - Hill repeats 300m. Really tough, love hill work.

Sun - gym, light session as i had been out sat night

chemicalfred

Well done in Athlone IvoryTower great time

IvoryTower

Ate and drank far more than expected. At least I trained through it all so I reckon I've maintained fitness but with some added beer belly.

Dec 22nd - 5x800
Dec 24th - 8x300 hill repeats
Dec 26th - oldbridge parkrun
Dec 29th - 5x800
Dec 31st - 10x400, very hungover and really struggled
Jan 2nd - 10 x 200 hill repeats - love it!
Jan 4th - Gym - was meant to be a light session, over done it of course. Walking like a penguin.
Jan 5th - 4 x 500 between the doms from the gym and going way too fast on my first rep I made a balls of this. Got the 4 done at least albeit first one really fast, second spot on and last 2 very slow struggling to finish. Will nail it next time...
Jan 6th - slow jog to work approx 3km

Week ahead - Lose the beer belly, try not mess up any more sessions. On to speedier work now and want to make the most of it.

Chivito550

Do you time any of your reps?

IvoryTower

Chivito550 wrote: »

Do you time any of your reps?

Yep, Casio watch! The coach then records them.

I assume it's the 500's you're thinking of. I was supposed to be doing 88 sec. I done 84, 88, 93, 94.

Chivito550

IvoryTower wrote: »

Yep, Casio watch! The coach then records them.

I assume it's the 500's you're thinking of. I was supposed to be doing 88 sec. I done 84, 88, 93, 94.

Yeh might be a good idea to record your splits on the log. That's what I do and I find it handy to have as reference, and to be able to compare sessions. Up to yourself.

I'd make note of length of the recoveries you take too. It's easy to forget otherwise.

IvoryTower

Thurs - 12 x 200 @ 35 with jog back rest(approx 80/90 sec - The first rep was 33 but other than that 34-36 for all of them, delighted with the session after Tuesdays mess. Breathing was going crazy for the last few reps and it was a bit slippy, would have been much easier in spikes. Buzzing after it!

Chivito550

IvoryTower wrote: »

Thurs - 12 x 200 @ 35 with jog back rest(approx 80/90 sec - The first rep was 33 but other than that 34-36 for all of them, delighted with the session after Tuesdays mess. Breathing was going crazy for the last few reps and it was a bit slippy, would have been much easier in spikes. Buzzing after it!

Good to see you doing 200s, but 12 is way too much. Work that down to 6 and try average 32 seconds off 90 secs recover. That will be more like a 400m endurance session.

dna_leri

IvoryTower wrote: »

Thurs - 12 x 200 @ 35 with jog back rest(approx 80/90 sec - The first rep was 33 but other than that 34-36 for all of them, delighted with the session after Tuesdays mess. Breathing was going crazy for the last few reps and it was a bit slippy, would have been much easier in spikes. Buzzing after it!

Good 800m session.

IvoryTower

Saturday. 6 x 300 @ .51. 2 min rest . On my own, all paced spot on, finally! No lower than 50.30 or higher than 51.80