Can I do business with Iranians?

BuilderPlumber

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

The above describes SAUDI ARABIA more accurately than Iran. Iran's unelected 'religious' leadership are far from perfect but are preferable anyday to Saudi Arabia's. Iran's current moderate elected government is trying to open things up. Saudi Arabia's government has made no effort at all to modernise things. People have more rights in Iran than Saudi Arabia. Music is not bannned in Iran: restricted, yes, not too unlike Ireland in fact where only 2 genres (modern pop and boyfolk aka country pop) is promoted and where other genre practicioners cannot make a living out of music at all. Saudi Arabia has more restrictions on music than both Ireland and Iran. True, women should have a LOT more rights in Iran than they do but to say they have no rights is not true. They have a lot more rights than Saudi Arabian women.

Still, and all, we have no problem doing business with Saudi Arabia which is much more repressive than Iran. So, why not do business with Iran and you will find the less isolated Iran becomes, the more modern it will get.

Have you got some sources for this opinion? Because all western music is illegal in Iran, hardly comparable to Ireland!

Bluefoam

Deleted User wrote: »

Have you got some sources for this opinion? Because all western music is illegal in Iran, hardly comparable to Ireland!

Are you trying to suggest his entire post is irrelevant because he didn't go into detail about what music is or isn't playing on a loop on local radio?

Bluefoam

Bluefoam wrote: »

Are you trying to suggest his entire post is irrelevant because he didn't go into detail about what music is or isn't playing on a loop on local radio?

What I'm suggesting is people who post their opinions actually back them up with facts and what is the reality, and not compare a fashion trend in music to a place where most music is actually illegal and playing it will get you arrested.
But I suppose as business advice what counts as proper in your book is "I have a friend who holidays there" "I've met iranians" and 'my mates do business there'.

Heres an interesting take on music in Iran from a musician quite recently

http://womensenews.org/story/arts/141211/i-made-music-in-iran-defying-laws

Bluefoam

Deleted User wrote: »

What I'm suggesting is people who post their opinions actually back them up with facts and what is the reality, and not compare a fashion trend in music to a place where most music is actually illegal and playing it will get you arrested.
But I suppose as business advice what counts as proper in your book is "I have a friend who holidays there" "I've met Iranians" and 'my mates do business there'.

Heres an interesting take on music in Iran from a musician quite recently

http://womensenews.org/story/arts/141211/i-made-music-in-iran-defying-laws

I'm still failing to see your point... I'm just after finishing a meeting with an Iranian client... We're not in a position to turn down a couple of million dirhams because you don't like the fact that the authorities don't allow certain music types... They'll just go to someone else with the project...

People could say the same about doing business in oppressive Ireland because the authoritarian government, lead by the powerful catholic church won't allow certain types of operations that could save lives...

There's always different ways to look at these things. BTW, I heard through a third party that the abortion laws are restrictive in Ireland, I don't have the legislation in front of me, so my point (according to you) isn't relevant...

Anyway, the OP was looking for advice on any legal restrictions on doing business with Iran, not whether he could include Taylor Swift CD's as part of the deal...

Bluefoam

Skiing & Holidaying in Iran... I'm not including my friends Facebook photos...
http://www.theguardian.com/travel/2008/feb/24/iran.skiing

Doing business in Iran:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/doing-business-with-iran/frequently-asked-questions-on-doing-business-with-iran
While I have only managed projects from the outside... My colleugues did travel there on numberous projects for international brands... Now I concentrate on local projects, but still come in regular contact with Iranians as there at half a a million of them living here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expatriates_in_the_United_Arab_Emirates#Iranians
Obviously I'm not going to give you private details of my business to support my point...

Bluefoam

Bluefoam wrote: »

I'm still failing to see your point... I'm just after finishing a meeting with an Iranian client... We're not in a position to turn down a couple of million dirhams because you don't like the fact that the authorities don't allow certain music types... They'll just go to someone else with the project...

People could say the same about doing business in oppressive Ireland because the authoritarian government, lead by the powerful catholic church won't allow certain types of operations that could save lives...

There's always different ways to look at these things. BTW, I heard through a third party that the abortion laws are restrictive in Ireland, I don't have the legislation in front of me, so my point (according to you) isn't relevant...

Anyway, the OP was looking for advice on any legal restrictions on doing business with Iran, not whether he could include Taylor Swift CD's as part of the deal...

My point is originally one poster stated Iran is - to paraphrase a normal enough place - to which I responded with various points to show that it wasn't and there is a vast cultural divide in terms of the laws and regulations. 10% rule the 100%. As to which Builder responded with a comparison to Ireland for music which simply is not true. I think its fair enough I shoot down that point since like I said you'll get arrested or band from the country for doing it. Given it looks like the OP is supplying music systems as part of his business it has some relevance if not the main point.
The wider cultural differences and business practices are very very different in Iran to Ireland. And while Builder is right that Saudi is probably worse, thats not really relevant.

Why can't you give details of your business deal here? I've done it numerous time with my different businesses to support what I'm saying. You don't have to name names or mention companies in particular, but if you can demonstrate what industry your in, how you went about doing your deal, how you'll get paid and what type of people/company your doing business with, surely this would be excellent advice and really help out the poster? And indeed prove your points!

Bluefoam

Deleted User wrote: »

My point is originally one poster stated Iran is - to paraphrase a normal enough place - to which I responded with various points to show that it wasn't and there is a vast cultural divide in terms of the laws and regulations. 10% rule the 100%. As to which Builder responded with a comparison to Ireland for music which simply is not true. I think its fair enough I shoot down that point since like I said you'll get arrested or band from the country for doing it. Given it looks like the OP is supplying music systems as part of his business it has some relevance if not the main point.
The wider cultural differences and business practices are very very different in Iran to Ireland. And while Builder is right that Saudi is probably worse, thats not really relevant.

Why can't you give details of your business deal here? I've done it numerous time with my different businesses to support what I'm saying. You don't have to name names or mention companies in particular, but if you can demonstrate what industry your in, how you went about doing your deal, how you'll get paid and what type of people/company your doing business with, surely this would be excellent advice and really help out the poster? And indeed prove your points!

I am involved in architectural services. I work for a firm & we have restrictions on releasing information about our projects to protect ourselves our clients and our projects. There are many sensitivities that we need to consider. We work with all types of people, from Government to Military to Developers to Family Businesses. As for payment, we sign a contract based on scope of works, set payment stages, invoice accordingly and receive cheques as payment. nothing unusual about that. Sometimes for excitement we get money transfers...

BuilderPlumber

Deleted User wrote: »

Have you got some sources for this opinion? Because all western music is illegal in Iran, hardly comparable to Ireland!

I've been there in the Khatami era. I am aware that most Western pop music is technically banned though older styles of 'Western' music are tolerated. All forms of Iranian music are permitted from what I could gather but female singers are not allowed on radio or TV. This is all a leftover from the war-era of the 1970s and 1980s coupled with over-paranoia from the treatment of Iran by the West. Khatami tried to change it and ran into Bush. Rouhani is currently trying to change it.

Another point about Iran is that although a lot of things are technically illegal, they are still now available and the regime tolerates them either out of the fact that over 90% of the regime often do no longer believe in these war-era laws anymore or else the regime deems it necessary to tolerate a lot in order for its unelected elite like the Revolutionary Guards and its defacto Shah Fr. Ali Khamenei to survive. The latter has been in that position as head priest and king since 1989 and he is not a fool whatever else he is.

Ireland on the other hand pushes certain styles and does not support others. Both countries from what I can gather do suffer from a 'who you know' mentality as probably do all countries!!!!

BuilderPlumber

Bluefoam wrote: »

I'm still failing to see your point... I'm just after finishing a meeting with an Iranian client... We're not in a position to turn down a couple of million dirhams because you don't like the fact that the authorities don't allow certain music types... They'll just go to someone else with the project...

People could say the same about doing business in oppressive Ireland because the authoritarian government, lead by the powerful catholic church won't allow certain types of operations that could save lives...

There's always different ways to look at these things. BTW, I heard through a third party that the abortion laws are restrictive in Ireland, I don't have the legislation in front of me, so my point (according to you) isn't relevant...

Anyway, the OP was looking for advice on any legal restrictions on doing business with Iran, not whether he could include Taylor Swift CD's as part of the deal...

One thing for certain is that Iran is not the place the Western media have prior to the nuclear deal painted it. For sure, it has stupid, archaic, war era laws that do need change but on the other hand, when much of these were about to change then Bush scuppers that attempt with his un-needed 'Axis of Evil' speech (talk about the jet black kettle calling the grey pot black!). Then, the war-era paranoia gets a new lease of life.

As someone who was there, the fun thing is being there and hearing and seeing things that you thought you would not. You could go down one street and see giant posters of Fr Khomeini and Fr Khamenei, the current and last Shahs (in all but name) of Iran. Beneath these priestly posters, you will see and hear all types of music, all types of native and international culture and you will even come across places where you can drink alcohol legally!! You will also see centres of worship for all religions and find out there are Jews living in Tehran freely!! Most surprising of all are Iran's fairly liberal attitudes to sex change operations!!!

You dare not criticse the top priests like Fr. Khamenei and you do not tangle with the Revolutionary Guards. Stay away from any pro or anti regime demonstrations and avoid Sistan-Balochistan and the Iraq border area. Take note of any advice given and do not say anything kind about Saddam to pro or anti regime Iranians alike!!!

Iran under current moderate president Rouhani is changing. There will come a day when there will be no need for a Shah or Supreme Leader or whatever they want to call this position. Still and all, traces of the wartime laws will last for decades even when 95% of them are gone.

Ireland shows us this. Our religiousity is gone for decades BUT we still have traces of it still like pubs closed on Good Friday and Christmas Day, the Angelus and Catholic orders still in charge of schools. Perhaps, our music industry remains restrictive compared to other European countries for the same reason and entire genres of music from the 1940s-1980s seem to have largely bypassed Ireland!! There is more chance of hearing certain styles and seeing them recognised by the people in Iran than here ironically!!

Now, Iran can progress and will progress if the West support this process. War-time laws will disappear and Iran will become a modern democracy with all the pros and cons this will bring with it!! The battle between religious and secular and finding the right balance will play itself out like it has done in many places.

pedroeibar1

The OP asked about doing business in Iran. He is not looking for advice on skiing holidays, tastes in music or comparisons with religion in Ireland or Saudi Arabia. (Which, BTW is a totally different export market, grade A risk, unlike Iran, which is a bottom of the barrel risk.)

It also is highly inappropriate to compare payment experience from Iran to Saudi with payment from Iran to Ireland. Similarly, payment experience on “supply of services” is not comparable with supply of in-car hi-fi systems. Particularly so where stopping the supply of services can bring a project to a halt. Anyone (obviously very few here!) with a basic knowledge of credit control at an international level would understand that!

The world’s main credit insurers, with billions of dollars of trade insured, access to the top level people in most markets (including Iran), with offices in the ME region, all remain firmly closed for credit insurance in the Iranian market. I watch and listen to them, not some eejits on Boards.ie who think they know better.

If OP has any sense he will get payment in advance and let you geniuses advise the unwashed on how great a place Iran is in which to do business, go skiing or listen to music! Let them learn the hard way.

BuilderPlumber

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

The OP asked about doing business in Iran. He is not looking for advice on skiing holidays, tastes in music or comparisons with religion in Ireland or Saudi Arabia. (Which, BTW is a totally different export market, grade A risk, unlike Iran, which is a bottom of the barrel risk.)

It also is highly inappropriate to compare payment experience from Iran to Saudi with payment from Iran to Ireland. Similarly, payment experience on “supply of services” is not comparable with supply of in-car hi-fi systems. Particularly so where stopping the supply of services can bring a project to a halt. Anyone (obviously very few here!) with a basic knowledge of credit control at an international level would understand that!

The world’s main credit insurers, with billions of dollars of trade insured, access to the top level people in most markets (including Iran), with offices in the ME region, all remain firmly closed for credit insurance in the Iranian market. I watch and listen to them, not some eejits on Boards.ie who think they know better.

If OP has any sense he will get payment in advance and let you geniuses advise the unwashed on how great a place Iran is in which to do business, go skiing or listen to music! Let them learn the hard way.

I am aware of this issue. Credit cards are as of now virtually non-existent and the Iranian economy has a long way to go. However, we should not assume this is how thing will remain forever. Germany was in 1944 or 1945 the LAST place anyone would want to do business but that changed once it was integrated again into the world. I believe Iran has the ability and resources to relatively quickly turn its economy, business structure, legal structure, etc. around. All is needed is intelligent and pragmatic governance and we are beginning to see that.

For years, war with Iraq, government infighting, poor governance, poor leadership and poor foreign policy both by Iran and by the West all took its toll. Iran should be on everyone's list as a future place to do business. Hassan Rouhani has already done more positive in 2 years than his predecessor did in 8 (Ahmadinejad proved a divisive figure and his government seems to be more interested in petty rivalry than improving Iran).

As for Saudi Arabia: 100 times more repressive with a lot less potential for positive change. BUT it has had no wars, isolation, etc. and is an established part of the world capitalist order for decades. Iran has not been part of that since 1979. The ten year war period from 1978 to 1988 in Iran where a civil war took out the pro-West monarchy followed by an opportunistic Saddam to launch an invasion ushering in the Iran-Iraq war did not help. In more recent times, the aftermath of 9/11 including Bush's remarks and the election of novice president Ahmadinejad at a time Iran needed someone like Rouhani who had experience did not help.

pedroeibar1

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

I am aware of this issue. Credit cards are as of now virtually non-existent and the Iranian economy has a long way to go. However, we should not assume this is how thing will remain forever. Germany was in 1944 or 1945 the LAST place anyone would want to do business but that changed once it was integrated again into the world. I believe Iran has the ability and resources to relatively quickly turn its economy, business structure, legal structure, etc. around. All is needed is intelligent and pragmatic governance and we are beginning to see that.

For years, war with Iraq, government infighting, poor governance, poor leadership and poor foreign policy both by Iran and by the West all took its toll. Iran should be on everyone's list as a future place to do business. Hassan Rouhani has already done more positive in 2 years than his predecessor did in 8 (Ahmadinejad proved a divisive figure and his government seems to be more interested in petty rivalry than improving Iran).

As for Saudi Arabia: 100 times more repressive with a lot less potential for positive change. BUT it has had no wars, isolation, etc. and is an established part of the world capitalist order for decades. Iran has not been part of that since 1979. The ten year war period from 1978 to 1988 in Iran where a civil war took out the pro-West monarchy followed by an opportunistic Saddam to launch an invasion ushering in the Iran-Iraq war did not help. In more recent times, the aftermath of 9/11 including Bush's remarks and the election of novice president Ahmadinejad at a time Iran needed someone like Rouhani who had experience did not help.

If you and your supporters are such experts how come you have yet to advise the OP on how to get paid and instead post economic and socio-political waffle?

Exporters don’t give a f@rt about ‘political repression’, they care only about being paid. That happens when trading in Saudi, but is most unlikely to be easily done in Iran, a place at the very bottom of the places in which to do business.

Put the figures in perspective – about 200 Irish companies sell about €3 Billion annually to Saudi/Gulf states. Last year total Irish exports to Iran amounted to about €50 million, mainly Coke/Pepsi concentrate with some pharma. , both products that ALWAYS are top of the queue for payment in any sand-pit country that bans alcohol.

This thread is about a novice exporter looking to sell to Iran. Trade with Iran in the short to medium term for LARGE companies is far over their time horizon. For SME’s it should not even be on their radar as it is a waste of effort, problematic and a recipe on how to lose money.

No Irish politician or trade mission has gone out to Iran in almost a decade, no missions are planned, no financial support is available from the banks or government. Ireland has no export credit scheme, the private insurance market will not provide cover. The embassy we had out there is long closed.
And no, it would not be a good idea to open one, we need to wait several years before it would be worthwhile going out there.

BuilderPlumber

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

If you and your supporters are such experts how come you have yet to advise the OP on how to get paid and instead post economic and socio-political waffle?

Exporters don’t give a f@rt about ‘political repression’, they care only about being paid. That happens when trading in Saudi, but is most unlikely to be easily done in Iran, a place at the very bottom of the places in which to do business.

Put the figures in perspective – about 200 Irish companies sell about €3 Billion annually to Saudi/Gulf states. Last year total Irish exports to Iran amounted to about €50 million, mainly Coke/Pepsi concentrate with some pharma. , both products that ALWAYS are top of the queue for payment in any sand-pit country that bans alcohol.

This thread is about a novice exporter looking to sell to Iran. Trade with Iran in the short to medium term for LARGE companies is far over their time horizon. For SME’s it should not even be on their radar as it is a waste of effort, problematic and a recipe on how to lose money.

No Irish politician or trade mission has gone out to Iran in almost a decade, no missions are planned, no financial support is available from the banks or government. Ireland has no export credit scheme, the private insurance market will not provide cover. The embassy we had out there is long closed.
And no, it would not be a good idea to open one, we need to wait several years before it would be worthwhile going out there.

First, you need not be so rude :mad: I am aware that exporters do not care about dictatorship in a country unless it affects the trade.
Second off, how does anyone get paid anywhere: make trusted contacts.
Third, I think it is rather obvious from what I said that Iran may not be the most ideal place at present to do business with but that will change.
Fourth, relating to third, the marketplaces, laws and politics of all regions will change. Having a backup place to replace somewhere else that goes down is always a good idea.
Finally, it depends on how one wants to get paid: cash? credit? bank transfers? Iran is currently poorly equipped to deal with international trade compared to those others including Saudi Arabia. My advice was quite clear in noting down Iran as a future place to trade with when it gets itself ready for this. History has shown that Germany, Eastern Europe and China have become trade giants relatively overnight and were poorly equipped for it until the governments decided to do something about it. Iran should be no different: if they want to trade and assure people they will get paid, it will happen.

pedroeibar1

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

First, you need not be so rude :mad: I am aware that exporters do not care about dictatorship in a country unless it affects the trade.
Second off, how does anyone get paid anywhere: make trusted contacts.
Third, I think it is rather obvious from what I said that Iran may not be the most ideal place at present to do business with but that will change.
Fourth, relating to third, the marketplaces, laws and politics of all regions will change. Having a backup place to replace somewhere else that goes down is always a good idea.
Finally, it depends on how one wants to get paid: cash? credit? bank transfers? Iran is currently poorly equipped to deal with international trade compared to those others including Saudi Arabia. My advice was quite clear in noting down Iran as a future place to trade with when it gets itself ready for this. History has shown that Germany, Eastern Europe and China have become trade giants relatively overnight and were poorly equipped for it until the governments decided to do something about it. Iran should be no different: if they want to trade and assure people they will get paid, it will happen.

Stop hiding behind silly accusations; I’m not rude, I’m blunt, because I have a low threshold for BS. The more BS I encounter, the blunter I become. Writing stuff like “Finally, it depends on how one wants to get paid: cash? credit? bank transfers?” makes you sound like a clueless Third Under Secretary for PR at their Embassy on Merrion Ave. So answer the question for the benefit of the OP and all potential exporters to that market– state clearly how the OP should structure his payment mechanism or STFU and go away.

BuilderPlumber

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Stop hiding behind silly accusations; I’m not rude, I’m blunt, because I have a low threshold for BS. The more BS I encounter, the blunter I become. Writing stuff like “Finally, it depends on how one wants to get paid: cash? credit? bank transfers?” makes you sound like a clueless Third Under Secretary for PR at their Embassy on Merrion Ave. So answer the question for the benefit of the OP and all potential exporters to that market– state clearly how the OP should structure his payment mechanism or STFU and go away.

Rude/blunt/crude/immature, all the same meaning to me. That people cannot conduct a discussion and debate without getting hostile and insulting. That smacks of being ignorant and unprofessional. And what is BS anyway? Just because you don't agree with it or you find it as 'waffle'. I will consider any post that uses hostile language as a form of harrassment. Disagree by all means but be polite. There is a place to insult each others statements and that is called the Dail!! I have a low tolerance of people being hostile, ignorant and insulting and hiding behind being blunt. Please don't reply to my posts again.

I gave valid points about Iran and its potential as a future place to do business. I did not deserve to be harassed by someone who cannot conduct a debate without being hostile.

Buttercake

I can think of another word rhyming with blunt

pedroeibar1

Ok. I take that as an answer, (finally! ) - you have no idea of how the OP can get paid.:rolleyes: It was not a debate, you made no valid points.

pedroeibar1

Buttercake wrote: »

I can think of another word rhyming with blunt

That coming from the person who wrote this says a lot!

BuilderPlumber

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Ok. I take that as an answer, (finally! ) - you have no idea of how the OP can get paid.:rolleyes: It was not a debate, you made no valid points.

I don't see how some people get their kicks. Getting paid is between the OP and his/her Iranian client. For the umpteenth time, it is trust. TRUST that little 5 letter word. The OP has to decide if it is too risky to do business with Iran or not or decide even if the correspondence 'from Iran' was yet another scam email written by someone closer to home! Getting paid is about trust and getting advice from experts in Iranian law if one is cautious. Get the money upfront and in the bank before any deal is made.

Please don't reply to me again. I have better things to do that trying to explain the obvious to someone who comes in here just wanting to stir things up.

pedroeibar1

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

For the umpteenth time, it is trust. TRUST that little 5 letter word.

Trust? Trust? Trust on payment from Iran? Are you for real? (The word BTW is "Imsh'allah")

FWIW if CIA was not forthcoming I would run but if I really needed the business the way I would structure the deal is as follows:-

Assuming the order to the OP is substantial, the OP asks the buyer to go to a "decent" bank in Iran and ask them to open an irrevocable letter of credit (ILC) in his favour (i..e. OP is the beneficiary). In brief, the ILC is a guarantee given by the Iranian bank (not the importer) to OP’s bank that $X will be paid on presentation of Y documents. However, that does not ensure payment, because the importer can meet the terms. remit the funds to his bank who remit the funds to the Iranian central bank but the funds might not necessarily be transferred by the Iranian Central Bank to Ireland. So what is needed is a “confirmation” of the ILC by an external bank, i.e. a bank in Europe / Grade A market must guarantee payment by the Iranian bank.

OP needs to research the costs of opening the ILC and the availability and cost of the confirmation. My guess is that the deal will not be done unless it – as I said ages ago – is Cash In Advance.

Mods – please close this, it is done to death.

pedronomix

This thread was about a remote vendor from Ireland selling his wares to Iran. Trade embargo issues were cleared up on page 1. Getting paid and staying paid is far from certain in this market, hence the focus on Iran's dysfunctional financial "system". It is clear that the only sensible option in this case is cash/cleared funds in advance of shipment. We are talking about a wireless for a car here!

Superfluous thread drift on topics such as repression, human rights, cultural issues, ski holidays and geopolitical analysis are just waffle..no wonder the OP tuned out!