2 dead including Garda following shooting Omeath Co Louth

Ayls

I'm not in favour of the public being allowed to carry guns but I'm very much in favour of armed police officers, for everyone's safety. If I'm being attacked by a crazed and violent person (armed or not) I would feel safer knowing those who are called to assist me are equipped enough to deal with it. This man shot his partner 3 times before firing on the guard, he probably could have killed him first. How is any Guard supposed to feel about the next domestic violence callout ? I doubt any gun laws (armed officers or not) would have prevented this nut case from doing what he did, but there's a greater possibility that the Guard would be alive now if he had been armed. How can they be expected to protect the public from dangerous violent individuals carrying no more than a radio and a pair of handcuffs ?

Raging_Ninja

BoatMad wrote: »

I think a key question to be answered here , is how a lone unarmed guard was sent to a house of a known dissident republican , in mental distress or other wise . A superior will need to have some very clear answers ready

Well, the answer is obvious. They've not got the numbers to be able to send more, so either they go out on their own, or they don't answer the 999 calls and leave people to fend for themselves.

Boring username

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

If this was in fact caused by mental illness, then you are looking for rationality where very little may have existed in the first place.

Or it could just be a murdering, bullying knacker with a short, psychopathic temper who murdered a guard, shot his wife, and then realised he was in a lose lose situation and killed himself rather than spend life in jail.

BoatMad

Ayls wrote: »

. If I'm being attacked by a crazed and violent person (armed or not) I would feel safer knowing those who are called to assist me are equipped enough to deal with it

what , in the middle of the " crazed and violent assault " , you say " hang on a minute there mate, I just need to call the guards and id be jolly grateful if you could suspend your crazed and violent assault until he turns up with gun ":rolleyes:

. This man shot his partner 3 times before firing on the guard, he probably could have killed him first. How is any Guard supposed to feel about the next domestic violence callout ? I doubt any gun laws (armed officers or not) would have prevented this nut case from doing what he did, but there's a greater possibility that the Guard would be alive now if he had been armed. How can they be expected to protect the public from dangerous violent individuals carrying no more than a radio and a pair of handcuffs ?

There isn't a solution and its the price we pay from time to time for having a largely unarmed public force. Its a high price at times

seamus

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

Well, the answer is obvious. They've not got the numbers to be able to send more, so either they go out on their own, or they don't answer the 999 calls and leave people to fend for themselves.

Again, more speculation. If the Garda felt that a serious threat was posed but he didn't have the backup to do anything about it, he would have stayed in the station with the woman until assistance was available, he wouldn't have just bulled in headfirst to it.

There is a regional support unit available for armed situations.

At this stage we don't even know if he was alone or if he just happened to be the first one into the house.

Little CuChulainn

BoatMad wrote: »

I think a key question to be answered here , is how a lone unarmed guard was sent to a house of a known dissident republican , in mental distress or other wise . A superior will need to have some very clear answers ready

unarmed Gardaí are regularly sent to calls involving armed men. In many areas armed support is non existent after a certain time due to the shifts they work.

Ayls

BoatMad wrote: »

what , in the middle of the " crazed and violent assault " , you say " hang on a minute there mate, I just need to call the guards and id be jolly grateful if you could suspend your crazed and violent assault until he turns up with gun ":rolleyes:

Quite often police are called before it gets completely out of hand, often neighbours, passer-bys etc etc call the emergency services :rolleyes:

Or you could be sleeping in bed when you hear intruders breaking in.....or......use your imagination, there are plenty of examples where you could find yourself in the need of well equipped protection.

BoatMad

Ayls wrote: »

BoatMad wrote: »

Or you could be sleeping in bed when you hear intruders breaking in.....or......use your imagination, there are plenty of examples where you could find yourself in the need of well equipped protection.

unfortunately the dispersal of 6 armed guards , will hardly get to my bed in time as the recent rural crime meeting displayed clearly

Arming the guards , might protect a few guards, it would do little to stem crime if there are no guards to get to you in time. An armed force in my view has a completely different relationship with the public then an un-armed force.

I see no reason to change what we have

I extend my upmost sympathies to the relatives of recent tragedies

sadie06

Lastest reports suggest that the lady had attended the garda station by appointment to file a complaint and that the garda then accompanied her to her home along with her father (who stayed outside) to gather her belongings. It sounds like the situation was not thought to be acute.

http://www.thejournal.ie/garda-louth-2382348-Oct2015/

DarkyHughes

Who were the people who did the shooting? Where they gangsters/drug dealers or a terrorist cell or something?

Strumms

Interesting.. This may be why Garda Golden had no backup ?

http://twitter.com/michellehtweet/status/653497620699213824/photo/1

expectationlost

sadie06 wrote: »

Lastest reports suggest that the lady had attended the garda station by appointment to file a complaint and that the garda then accompanied her to her home along with her father (who stayed outside) to gather her belongings. It sounds like the situation was not thought to be acute.

http://www.thejournal.ie/garda-louth-2382348-Oct2015/

I wonder why knowing the guys record you'd go back for just clothes, but the garda may have saved her life

mariaalice

I wonder what sort of background he came from, what sort of parenting did he have what sort of family, he seemed to have been an extremely violent character and those convictions for the pornography how does someone end up like that at 24.

JustTheOne

mariaalice wrote: »

I wonder what sort of background he came from, what sort of parenting did he have what sort of family, he seemed to have been an extremely violent character and those convictions for the pornography how does someone end up like that at 24.

Obviously mental issues. Is this not obvious at this stage?

Animal porn.
Terrorism.
Suicidal.

BoatMad

expectationlost wrote: »

I wonder why knowing the guys record you'd go back for just clothes, but the garda may have saved her life

its still begs the question that an unarmed guard was sent to a house , where a known republican on bail for firearms charges was residing, Reports suggest the guards had been phoned several times saying the man threatened the wife with a gun over the week end

I still cant fathom it out

JustTheOne

DarkyHughes wrote: »

Who were the people who did the shooting? Where they gangsters/drug dealers or a terrorist cell or something?

The one person you mean? I don't understand.

myshirt

DarkyHughes knows something the rest of us don't. DarkyHughes, you need to come out of the long grass; give it to us straight.

Ayls

BoatMad wrote: »

Ayls wrote: »

unfortunately the dispersal of 6 armed guards , will hardly get to my bed in time as the recent rural crime meeting displayed clearly

Arming the guards , might protect a few guards, it would do little to stem crime if there are no guards to get to you in time. An armed force in my view has a completely different relationship with the public then an un-armed force.

I see no reason to change what we have

I extend my upmost sympathies to the relatives of recent tragedies

In what way do you think the relationship is different ? Just interested in views. I personally don't feel I have any relationship with police officers/guards and rarely even think about them. Perhaps it's because I always lived in countries where they were armed, I almost take it for granted that they are.

BoatMad

Ayls wrote: »

BoatMad wrote: »

In what way do you think the relationship is different ? Just interested in views. I personally don't feel I have any relationship with police officers/guards and rarely even think about them. Perhaps it's because I always lived in countries where they were armed, I almost take it for granted that they are.

IN many countries police are increasingly dressed in a kind of paramilitary outfit, loaded with a belt carrying everything from a gun to spray etc. The effect is formidable and distancing

A guard, ( and I hate the hi vis stuff) , in a well presented shirt and tie, embodies the presence of a law abiding state, he or she is a figure of respect yet approachable and non threatening . This is a great icon of policing

too often we turn our police forces into a a counter insurgency paramilitary force. what we want is to engender respect and to punish any attempt to hurt guards with incredibly stiff penalties ( upto and including death sentences in my view for capital crimes ), I would give people 20 years for serious assault of a guard ,10 for a minor one.

end of the road

Manic Moran wrote: »

I don't think anyone would claim that guns solve crime. They're issued to police around the world, even countries with such low violence rates as Japan and Iceland, for the purposes of protecting life.

Obviously the Garda leadership have so far made the decision that for whatever reason, be it policy or financial, they believe that the merits of the partially armed force is worth the risk to the individual garda. The problem with the theory which, again, virtually no other country in the world follows, is that for the several minutes (or more) between when the Garda in question realises "a firearm would be rather handy right about now", gets on the radio and says "lads, would you mind showing up with the response unit", and when they actually get to the scene, the Garda in question has all but no control over the situation, and is purely reliant on the inclinations and capability of someone who has enough respect for the law to be brandishing a firearm in the first place. The policy may be sensible at a macro scale, but doubtless there are periods of time when certain -individuals- (or their families) might be lamenting the policy.

Now, if this would have had any effect here is, of course, an open question, but the dilemma still stands.

britain doesn't have a fully armed police force either though? they (like us) have specialised responce units all be it they are funded and resourced better then ours

Greentopia

Terrible weekend, so many senseless unnecessary deaths.

Fleawuss

There are questions to answer about risk assessment but they won't be answered here. There are even bigger questions to be answered by those who supplied this sicko with a weapon: if I remember right over 90% of the Republics voters and over 70% of those in the north accepted the good Friday agreement. What right have these people to ignore the democratic wishes of all Ireland ? None. But they believe that your vote and my vote can be set aside by their stupidity and violence. Nazis.

JustTheOne

Fleawuss wrote: »

There are questions to answer about risk assessment but they won't be answered here. There are even bigger questions to be answered by those who supplied this sicko with a weapon: if I remember right over 90% of the Republics voters and over 70% of those in the north accepted the good Friday agreement. What right have these people to ignore the democratic wishes of all Ireland ? None. But they believe that your vote and my vote can be set aside by their stupidity and violence. Nazis.

Do you really think this shooting was any way connected to some op by a group?

This chap was unstable and it all just came to a head. It was a shotgun used. There is 100s of thousands of these all over Ireland. Bit early to speculate where he got it from etc.

end of the road

myshirt wrote: »

DarkyHughes knows something the rest of us don't. DarkyHughes, you need to come out of the long grass; give it to us straight.

no, no he doesn't. if he knew he wouldn't have asked.

Fleawuss

JustTheOne wrote: »

Do you really think this shooting was any way connected to some op by a group?

This chap was unstable and it all just came to a head. It was a shotgun used. There is 100s of thousands of these all over Ireland. Bit early to speculate where he got it from etc.

News has said since last night a handgun. RTE this evening a Glock.

Dissidents don't have "ops": dressing up their lunacy in defiance of Irish people north and south in pseudo military language is bs.

JustTheOne

Fleawuss wrote: »

News has said since last night a handgun. RTE this evening a Glock.

The gards on rte news right now just said it was shotgun wounds both died of.

donvito99

JustTheOne wrote: »

The gards on rte news right now just said it was shotgun wounds both died of.

Paul Reynolds reiterated handgun - Glock 9mm.

Witcher

JustTheOne wrote: »

The gards on rte news right now just said it was shotgun wounds both died of.

No they didn't, they said it was a handgun used, specifically a Glock pistol.

It is being reported everywhere as a handgun, the only place I heard it was a shotgun was your posts.

JustTheOne

Could have sworn the gard giving a statement said shotgun. If I'm wrong apologies.

whatismyname

Ex-justice minister asks how Tony Golden’s killer had handgun

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/ex-justice-minister-asks-how-tony-golden-s-killer-had-handgun-1.2388473

Former minister for justice Dermot Ahern has said questions need to be answered over how the killer of garda Tony Golden was able to keep a handgun at his home.
Although Garda numbers in Omeath, Co Louth, where the shooting took place on Sunday, have fallen substantially in recent years, “there is no doubt that there is a latent kickback from the troubles in the area,” he said. “It raises the question: How come this individual had a hand gun?”

Mr Ahern, who was TD for Louth, added that former paramilitaries influenced a number of young, gullible, people who wouldn’t even have been born during the troubles.

He said Adrian Crevan Mackin (24), who shot his partner and fatally wounded garda Golden before turning his gun on himself, was an individual who didn’t agree with the peace process in Northern Ireland.

He said that after 35 years of violence on the island of Ireland it was unrealistic to expect everyone formerly involved with paramilitary activity to transform into law abiding members of society.

“Unfortunately there are people around the island of Ireland still involved in terrorism and still possessing some of these weapons,” he told Sean O’Rourke on RTÉ Radio 1.

On the subject of why Garda Golden had been sent out without backup

On the question of whether garda Golden should have entered the house without backup, he said gardaí respond to domestic incidents every day and that it would “make life very difficult” if they insisted on staying in the station every time a second garda was unavailable.