Homeless man perishes on Dublin street

FelineOverLord

CruelCoin wrote: »

No, no we do not.

I'm not going to dig it up, but wasn't there a lot of recentish news controversy over the costs of providing homeless housing? More than the average industrial wage per person i thought it was.

Throwing more band-aids at the problem isn't going to solve anything other than move the problem out of sight.

If you're homeless, odds are you're not working and are therefore mobile. If you're not working then the dole is plenty sufficient for you to rent a home/room outside the city (think leitrim, laois, etc). So, i don't think not having a roof over your head is justifiable.

"But joe, what about the drugs and dem drinks?" Ah give up.

I doubt there are many landlords willing to let to the unemployed, especially the homeless, regardless of what part of the country they live in. I'm guessing a single homeless person is going to be much further down the housing/RAS list than someone with kids.

asherbassad

CruelCoin wrote: »

No, no we do not.

I'm not going to dig it up, but wasn't there a lot of recentish news controversy over the costs of providing homeless housing? More than the average industrial wage per person i thought it was.

Throwing more band-aids at the problem isn't going to solve anything other than move the problem out of sight.

If you're homeless, odds are you're not working and are therefore mobile. If you're not working then the dole is plenty sufficient for you to rent a home/room outside the city (think leitrim, laois, etc). So, i don't think not having a roof over your head is justifiable.

"But joe, what about the drugs and dem drinks?" Ah give up.

So what you're saying is that not a single one of the homeless people has the cop on to figure out that they are entitled to all these things you mention.

sashafierce

This post has been deleted.

Saipanne

CruelCoin wrote: »

No idea.

"quick google"

Dil ireann - Volume 632 - 01 March, 2007 - Written Answers. - Social Welfare Benefits.

Mr. Callely asked the Minister for Social and Family Affairs if a homeless person is entitled to a social welfare payment; the procedure to obtain such a payment; and if he will make a statement on the matter

To which the response was:
Homeless people have the same entitlements as any other Irish citizen under the social welfare system. If they are unemployed but capable of and genuinely seeking work, then they can apply for job seekers allowance. A person makes a claim to job seekers allowance by completing a claim form at the Department’s local office. Homeless people can be paid basic allowance under the supplementary welfare allowance scheme if they do not fulfil the conditions for any other primary weekly payment from my Department.




Turns out yes, yes they can

Unfortunately many of them would probably be incapable of jumping through the bureaucratic hoops, due to their addictions.

Paramite Pie

JustTheOne wrote: »

There was a woman from the Simon community on tv last week saying a homeless fella handed back Keys to a brand new flat he got from the council.

He just couldn't handle it.

It's not as simple as giving someone a place to stay.

For those who are mentally conditioned (for lack of a better term) towards sleeping rough, could a courtyard or patio area be constructed where tents and/or sleeping bags are provided along with electric heaters -- a bit like a pub smoking area with some shelter from rain -- this could provide a warm, safe area to sleep in.

For those in the flats but who are having trouble adjusting, a low lying bed (like those in Japan/Korea) as well as one of those sound-effect machines playing street sounds could be helpful.

And lastly, there should be another shelter where drugs are permitted -- preferably ones inside the methadone clinics. Let them get a controlled fix.

Lods1969

Homelessness is a industry that employees 100's . Dublin City Council fund 28 of the 30 odd homeless charities in Dublin. Does that make any sense ? 28 Charities with 28 CEO's , 28 Offices etc etc, . Most people that are homeless have other issues, addictions etc. which has seen them ending up on the streets, its not as simple as providing a roof. Who actually wants to really solve the problem??

the evasion_kid

sashafierce wrote: »

RIP to the poor man its awful.

However I have lived in Canada for a while where homeless people are on the streets in -30 winters. Having moved back to Ireland since its nice to see they get more recognised here and are actually treated better though it might not seem that way.

Frightening the amount of them over there,sleeping over the subway grills just to get a bit of heat into them.

suicide_circus

Most people who are homeless do not sleep rough while most people who sleep rough have addiction problems. That said I'd agree that there are an awful lot of people drawing a salary from the homeless industry and the charity sector in general.

Asmooh

Paramite Pie wrote: »

I was in a 24hr internet cafe a few months back in Dublin -- a lot of homeless people who couldn't get a room were spending their night there.

One of them was only 14. A charity group came around with sandwiches & coffee at around 3/4am.

When I move back to Dublin I plan to volunteer with them, I don't have money to give but I do have some time. It was hard to witness, it's one thing to pass someone on the street and forget about it 2mins later, it's harder to forget when you see it up close.

wait 14 and homeless? in Europe? if he/she was irish I don't think this is even true.

CruelCoin

asherbassad wrote: »

So what you're saying is that not a single one of the homeless people has the cop on to figure out that they are entitled to all these things you mention.

What i'mplying (badly it seems) is that they should know this, but it likely goes up their veins or down their gullet, as opposed to homing themselves.

CruelCoin

FelineOverLord wrote: »

I doubt there are many landlords willing to let to the unemployed, especially the homeless, regardless of what part of the country they live in. I'm guessing a single homeless person is going to be much further down the housing/RAS list than someone with kids.

I'm fundamentaly opposed to the notion of "gimme a free house, joe" and i don't think that should be a factor, but you're not wrong, they'd likely feature towards the bottom.

seamus

Asmooh wrote: »

wait 14 and homeless? in Europe? if he/she was irish I don't think this is even true.

Why not? Homelessness doesn't require that someone has run out of money. Homeless younger people in particular usually end up homeless because they're running from an abusive family member (sexual or physical) or are fighting substance abuse issues so don't feel like they can go home.

The homeless charities will often advise the dept. of social protection where these kids are, but they can't forcibly pick them up or anything. These kids will run if social workers come near them because they know they'll be sent home.

corner of hells

Lods1969 wrote: »

Homelessness is a industry that employees 100's . Dublin City Council fund 28 of the 30 odd homeless charities in Dublin. Does that make any sense ? 28 Charities with 28 CEO's , 28 Offices etc etc, . Most people that are homeless have other issues, addictions etc. which has seen them ending up on the streets, its not as simple as providing a roof. Who actually wants to really solve the problem??

The state will not touch employing staff/employees to work widescale in solving homelessness.

Other than Parkgate street etc, welfare , some medical , some maintenance that's it.

Its works out better value to allow a charity to employ its own staff and provide it with some funding.

The vast majority of staff employed in these charities aren't particularly big salaries and in some cases are contracted to work year by year often in placed that are live 24hrs.

The government wants employ less staff not more and is happy to let charities do it.I'd love to employed directly by the state.

Nowadays a charity in order to get any funding must make sure its a very viable entity.Any charities Ive worked for certainly aren't flush with cash.

corner of hells

seamus wrote: »

Why not? Homelessness doesn't require that someone has run out of money. Homeless younger people in particular usually end up homeless because they're running from an abusive family member (sexual or physical) or are fighting substance abuse issues so don't feel like they can go home.

The homeless charities will often advise the dept. of social protection where these kids are, but they can't forcibly pick them up or anything. These kids will run if social workers come near them because they know they'll be sent home.

It would be unusual for an unaccompanied 14 year old to be out and about homeless.The safety nets is quite good for catching them in Ireland.

Joe prim

What's needed is;

"Dry" hostels for non-drinking/non-drugtaking homeless men and/or women
"Wet" hostels for drinking homeless men and/or women
"Needle" hostels for drug-taking homeless (although separate hostels may be needed according to drug of choice-meth-heads may not want to mix with people nodding off on smack etc.)
Hostels with professional support staff for homeless men/and/or women with mental health issues. ( A service formerly provided by the big Psychiatric institutions like Grangegorman and Portrane)

Supported long-term lodgings for homeless "moving-on" to own-door accommodation who are unable to cope with ADL.
On-street/park/bridge/shop doorway support for homeless who choose to sleep rough despite availability of above.

And that's just for starters......

corner of hells

Joe prim wrote: »

What's needed is;

"Dry" hostels for non-drinking/non-drugtaking homeless men and/or women
"Wet" hostels for drinking homeless men and/or women
"Needle" hostels for drug-taking homeless (although separate hostels may be needed according to drug of choice-meth-heads may not want to mix with people nodding off on smack etc.)
Hostels with professional support staff for homeless men/and/or women with mental health issues. ( A service formerly provided by the big Psychiatric institutions like Grangegorman and Portrane)

Supported long-term lodgings for homeless "moving-on" to own-door accommodation who are unable to cope with ADL.
On-street/park/bridge/shop doorway support for homeless who choose to sleep rough despite availability of above.

And that's just for starters......

All exist with the exception of a hostel that allows injecting.Six month hostels will have all sorts of professional support staff.
There are outreach teams already in existence.
The issue is getting people to the stage where they can live independently.

What do you mean by meth heads ?

Paramite Pie

Asmooh wrote: »

wait 14 and homeless? in Europe? if he/she was irish I don't think this is even true.

He was Irish, Dubliner. He was the only minor.

corner of hells wrote: »

It would be unusual for an unaccompanied 14 year old to be out and about homeless.The safety nets is quite good for catching them in Ireland.

He was with his mam, so not unaccompanied and Social Services were apparently aware. The guy working in the Internet Cafe was on & off the phone quite a bit to a Homeless charity who were seeking a room for him. He did get a room and left for a while but came back (?) for some reason unknown to me.

I didn't stay all night so he might have gone to his bed eventually.

CruelCoin

corner of hells wrote: »

What do you mean by meth heads ?

Really?

corner of hells

CruelCoin wrote: »

Really?

Well are you talking about methadone or an amphetamine type drug.

I work in homeless and have worked in drug services and never heard the term math head used in that context.

The Corinthian

corner of hells wrote: »

Any charities Ive worked for certainly aren't flush with cash.

Well, you were hardly going to work for free or for a way-below-market-rate salary if they told you their C-level employees were all on 90k+.

corner of hells

The Corinthian wrote: »

Well, you were hardly going to work for free or for a way-below-market-rate salary if they told you their C-level employees were all on 90k+.

I have no idea what C level means but I'm sure I agree with you.

The Corinthian

corner of hells wrote: »

I have no idea what C level means but I'm sure I agree with you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_title

CruelCoin

corner of hells wrote: »

Well are you talking about methadone or an amphetamine type drug.

I work in homeless and have worked in drug services and never heard the term math head used in that context.

Meth-head to me would mean the amphethamine type. You know, drawn pinched face, rotten teeth, yellow skin, patchy hair, hoarse voice, edgy/hyper demeanor, etc etc.

corner of hells

CruelCoin wrote: »

Meth-head to me would mean the amphethamine type. You know, drawn pinched face, rotten teeth, yellow skin, patchy hair, hoarse voice, edgy/hyper demeanor, etc etc.

Amphetamine use is really rare in Ireland ,,I'm wondering are you thinking about snowblow or mephedrone use.

I know there was Eastern Europeans using amphetamine type drugs a few years ago , but from working in drug services I can honestly say I seen very few.

There's a surge in HIV from very chaotic drug use attributed to snowblow type stuff .

Joe prim

corner of hells wrote: »

All exist with the exception of a hostel that allows injecting.Six month hostels will have all sorts of professional support staff.
There are outreach teams already in existence.
The issue is getting people to the stage where they can live independently.

What do you mean by meth heads ?

Point I tried to make is that even when the state sinks very significant resources into addressing homelessness, as this state does,some people slip through the safety net,because the generic services don't suit them for some reason;young homeless,non- irish,couples,couples with children etc.someone dying in a doorway is tragic and regrettable, but it doesn't really tell us anything useful about the effectiveness of our homeless services.
Meth head=consumer of methamphetamine and related recreational drugs!as opposed to those who consume opioids ( I realise that it may be an artificial distinction, as the more chaotic drug consumers use multiple products)

foggy_lad

Most of the homeless on the streets are there by choice due to alcoholism or other drug addiction or mental health issues.

corner of hells

Joe prim wrote: »

Point I tried to make is that even when the state sinks very significant resources into addressing homelessness, as this state does,some people slip through the safety net,because the generic services don't suit them for some reason;young homeless,non- irish,couples,couples with children etc.someone dying in a doorway is tragic and regrettable, but it doesn't really tell us anything useful about the effectiveness of our homeless services.
Meth head=consumer of methamphetamine and related recreational drugs!as opposed to those who consume opioids ( I realise that it may be an artificial distinction, as the more chaotic drug consumers use multiple products)

I agree with you , no matter what's available people are still going to slip through that safety net. There is no perfect solution.

hatrickpatrick

What angers me about is is watching Dublin and Dun Laoghaire county councils reducing their supply of council housing by bulldozing high density apartment complexes and replacing them with either (a) far lower density houses, or (b) leaving the sites vacant and derelict for years on end.

They'll tell you that it's a question of money from when the PPPs collapsed. I respond by simply pointing to the €100m we somehow found to establish Irish Water and pondering how many apartment blocks we could have built for that amount of money. Just to take one obvious example, of many. :mad:

Anyone familiar with Mounttown / FitzGerald Park near Glenegeary? How many units could we fit into that site if we built average size apartment blocks there? I believe it was demolished ~2007. That's eight years, a gigantic site in a fantastic location, owned already by DL county council, and absolutely nothing on it except rubble and grass.

Sofiztikated

corner of hells wrote: »

Amphetamine use is really rare in Ireland ,,I'm wondering are you thinking about snowblow or mephedrone use.

I know there was Eastern Europeans using amphetamine type drugs a few years ago , but from working in drug services I can honestly say I seen very few.

There's a surge in HIV from very chaotic drug use attributed to snowblow type stuff .

Meth = Methamphetamine.

Speed and meth are not as popular as coke, heroin, or MDMA, but they are there. Speed is easily obtained here in Cavan, more so than coke, and areas such as Crossmaglen have a serious hard on for meth.

How is a surge in HIV attributed to snowblow (i'm guessing that the synth/RC stuff?) It would generally be insuffated.

suicide_circus

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Meth = Methamphetamine.

Speed and meth are not as popular as coke, heroin, or MDMA, but they are there. Speed is easily obtained here in Cavan, more so than coke, and areas such as Crossmaglen have a serious hard on for meth.

How is a surge in HIV attributed to snowblow (i'm guessing that the synth/RC stuff?) It would generally be insuffated.

When the headshops were around the scaldys pretty quickly started dissolving the powders in a bit of water and shooting it

Lods1969

corner of hells wrote: »

The vast majority of staff employed in these charities aren't particularly big salaries and in some cases are contracted to work year by year often in placed that are live 24hrs.

Nowadays a charity in order to get any funding must make sure its a very viable entity.Any charities Ive worked for certainly aren't flush with cash.

Focus Ireland say they are committed to high standards, transparency although there last published accounts on their website are 2013. It’s a big industry & I’m not saying they aren’t doing some good, but it’s hard to listen to the charities plead for money when at least on has €5million in the bank & €8 million the previous year.

focusireland.ie/who-we-are/transparency


From their accounts

The average salary of the staff was €40,273 in 2013.

salaries that fall in £10,000
bands in excess of GBP£60,000. We have applied
this policy from €70,000.

Staff Salaries 2013

€120k–€130k 1
€100k–€110k 1
€90k–€100k 0
€80k–€90k 4
€70k–€80k 0

The gross CEO salary is €125,000 per annum,
and the total remuneration package provided to the
CEO in 2013, including any payments, medical
insurance and pension contribution made by the
employer, was €137,052.

Current assets
Cash at bank and in hand €5,052,824

JP Liz V1

RIP

bruschi

surprised that the news this man wasnt actually homeless wasnt posted in the thread.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/man-found-dead-in-dublin-doorway-was-not-homeless-1.2392238

A lot of political posturing was made of a tragic incident, and a lot of assumptions made before anything was known, with regards to homelessness and with regards to substance abuse.

Menas

So we are back to what was said earlier. This is not a homeless problem, it is a drugs problem.

Sofiztikated

Menas wrote: »

So we are back to what was said earlier. This is not a homeless problem, it is a drugs problem.

If we're going to be real, and not jump ahead of ourselves again, as yet, we don't know if it's a drugs issue.

Tox screen isn't back.

JustTheOne

bruschi wrote: »

surprised that the news this man wasnt actually homeless wasnt posted in the thread.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/man-found-dead-in-dublin-doorway-was-not-homeless-1.2392238

A lot of political posturing was made of a tragic incident, and a lot of assumptions made before anything was known, with regards to homelessness and with regards to substance abuse.

Burn the dail down. The government are happy to see homeless die on the street. One less one to worry about!

JustTheOne

pmasterson95 wrote: »

Sure ya wont get much interest here about Irish dying. Now if he was Syrian this would 10+ pages of eejits crying injustice. Hes irish. Just not as cool.

Post of he thread goes to the above.

Joe prim

Menas wrote: »

So we are back to what was said earlier. This is not a homeless problem, it is a drugs problem.

If reports in IT today are correct, the unfortunate man whose sad death precipitated this entire thread wasn't homeless at all, but it does illustrate our willingness to beat our breasts about assumed systemic failings which in reality are just random tragedies.

DarkyHughes

kylith wrote: »

Homeless people are bound to die at some point, like all of us. It's sad that this man died alone on the streets, but passers-by can't be expected to check the pulse of everyone they see passed out on the street.

So if someone shot you in the stomach & you were lying on the ground from the gun shot wound you wouldn't want people to check on you to see if your alright?

Fratton Fred

suicide_circus wrote: »

I've a friend who works with the homeless. She will tell you that anyone you see who is actually sleeping rough is there because they are unable or unwilling to sleep in shelters or hostels which all operate no drink/drugs policies. The reason you don't see a mother and her kids sleeping in the street is that they are not strug out.
It may be harsh to say but if you are shooting up and die on the street, it may not be anyone else's "fault".

I've a friend who was homeless, got his act together and is now working for a charity in Camden as a mediator for the homeless there.

He was telling me that in London (and I'm guessing Dublin is no different) there are ample places for people to get a meal and a hot drink, with a bed for the night of they want. It isn't finding places for the homeless that's the problem, it's getting them in to them that's the problem.

haveringchick

Why do so many people persist in insisting that rough sleepers are outside because they couldn't find/afford a bed for the night?
You don't die of homelessness, you die as a result of substance abuse. It's no less sad to see an otherwise healthy adult dead in a doorway but this hysterical communal self flagellation needs to stop

deseil

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I've a friend who was homeless, got his act together and is now working for a charity in Camden as a mediator for the homeless there.

He was telling me that in London (and I'm guessing Dublin is no different) there are ample places for people to get a meal and a hot drink, with a bed for the night of they want. It isn't finding places for the homeless that's the problem, it's getting them in to them that's the problem.

This is so true. Lots of these people are entrenched in homelessness for years and will never be able for independent living, its a sad fact that no matter what the government do there will always be people that are unable to live independently, paying bills budgeting shopping cooking etc are alien to some people its very sad but some people will just never be able to adjust whether it be poor upbringing, being institutionalised,mental health issues or addiction the best we can do is provide adequate supports to make the hectic unstable lives they have to live as comfortable as possible.