Should Peyton Manning Retire?

Jolly Red Giant

Peyton Manning is one of the best QBs ever to play the game. His brain operates like a machine analysing defences and adjusting to compensate. He has had perfect timing throwing the ball and his quick release made it very difficult to sack or pressure him.

Peyton Manning is now 39 years old. Last season he was excellent in the first half of the season and then appeared to go into a rapid decline. The decline was blamed on an injury he suffered V the Chargers in Week 15 but the reality is that issues were evident for a number of games prior.

This season there is evidence of serious and terminal decline in Manning's ability to play QB. Yes the Denver OL is very poor - but the decline in Manning's play is obvious.

1. Manning was never able to throw a deep ball but this season he is showing an inability to get any zip on the ball and anything thrown over 10 yards is floating all over the place.
2. Manning is very slow. He cannot play under center and would be unable to drop back even three steps without getting sacked.
3. In order to avoid pressure Manning is releasing the ball as quickly as possible and is throwing into space in the hope the receiver arrives and catches the pass.

Manning's stats this season are as follows
120 completions from 189 attempts (63.5%) - Manning's lowest percentage since 2001
1,234 yards - an average of 6.5 yards - Manning's lowest average since his rookie season
6 TDs and 7INTs - Manning usually throws three times the TDs to interceptions and has not had a negative season since his rookie season
77.3 QB rating - and while I don't put much stock in QB ratings Manning was 101.5 last season. This has been by far his lowest QB rating since his rookie season.

The problems don't end there. Defences know that Manning cannot pass beyond ten yards and don't need to defend deep (the 41 yd reception yesterday by Fowler was a 9 yd pass and a 32 yd run after the catch). The ZBS scheme employed by Kubiak requires the QB to play under center in order to set up the run. Because Manning can't play under center the running game has been ineffective. Because of the inability of Manning to move the ball the Broncos are repeatedly going 3 and out. Yesterday the Broncos had an 18% conversion on third downs.

Manning no longer has the physical skills to play as an NFL QB. But he is incapable of operating as a game manager. Manning knows how to play one way and one way only and he is no longer capable of playing the game the way he has for the past 15 years.

Manning is a guaranteed HOF and has rightly earned the respect and reputation that an elite QB deserves. However, in my opinion, Manning is severely damaging his reputation as one of the best QBs of all time. The longer he continues to play this season the more he is likely to decline (yesterday was probably his worst performance of the season). The longer he continues the more damage he is doing and the more embarrassing his play will become. He is also increasing the chances of getting severely hurt. He cannot escape any pressure and collapses in a heap as soon as he sees any pressure coming his way. Manning has been sacked 12 times in five games and in most cases he has gone to ground without actually being touched. The only thing that is keeping Manning going is his sharp brain and his quick release but this does not come remotely close to compensating for his inability to actually throw the ball.

Given that Manning no longer has the physical skills to play as an NFL QB and his play is a growing embarrassment and damaging his reputation as one of the best QBs to play the game - should Manning recognise his clear limitations and realise that he cannot any longer play this game, retire from the game now rather than wait to take a pounding and leave the sport at the end of the season with his reputation being seriously damaged.

StringerBell

I was gonna say couldn't this be discussed in the Broncos thread, but I don't actually think there is one?

He should have gone last off season, this is definitely his last year but I'm not sure I see him going before the season ends, the decision could be made for him alright if he is willing to go quietly they could invent a season ending injury that he just doesn't come back from.

Depends on him, he surely knows he is not playing anywhere near the level he can and is in fact holding his team back I would suggest offensively, whether he can bring himself to admit that publicly or not I don't know

Just try coast through and hope the D carry him to some respectability this season and bow out is my prediction

Magico Gonzalez

The Broncos are 5-0 right. Looks like his limitations will still get them further than their backup QB or anyone the might pick up on a trade.

Is his performance deteriorating? Yes.

Is it bad enough that he should retire now? No.

Should he retire at the end of this season. Inevitably?

I think you're probably 5 weeks too late on this one. 5-0 says worry about this after Feb 2016, the Denver D is probably good enough to get them into the post season.

How do those stats stack up against any possible replacement? Who is going to come in?

Tebow??!!..come on, sadly for the Broncos they don't have a replacement ready to go that knows the offence and is good enough. Problem for them to solve.

Jolly Red Giant

StringerBell wrote: »

I was gonna say couldn't this be discussed in the Broncos thread, but I don't actually think there is one?

There is a Broncos thread - but this really isn't about the Broncos - its about Manning as a player.

JCTO

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

1. Manning was never able to throw a deep ball but this season he is showing an inability to get any zip on the ball and anything thrown over 10 yards is floating all over the place.

What? I wouldn't agree. Firstly lets define what is considered a deep pass, 20+ yards. Now we have that out of the way. In the last couple of years he has struggled with the Deep pass but he definitely had the ability to throw deep in his early years and his prime. He may not have been the best deep passer over the years but he was more than capable of throwing a deep pass.

An article written in 2013 with stats taken from PFF:

http://regressing.deadspin.com/charts-who-are-the-best-deep-passers-in-the-nfl-1469917039

Jolly Red Giant

Magico Gonzalez wrote: »

The Broncos are 5-0 right. Looks like his limitations will still get them further than their backup QB or anyone the might pick up on a trade.

This is actually being debated by Broncos fans - and the conclusion at the moment is probably yes. Osweiler has all the physical skills needed to play QB and specifically to operate the WCO. He has a cannon for an arm, can roll-out and is effective with play-action. Many Broncos fans believe that with Os defences would have to play honest and respect the deep ball, the running game would improve because Os would play under center and an improved running game would help the offence all around,

Magico Gonzalez wrote: »

I think you're probably 5 weeks too late on this one. 5-0 says worry about this after Feb 2016, the Denver D is probably good enough to get them into the post season.

The Denver D is probably good enough to win sufficient games on its own to get to the play-offs irrespective of who is at QB

Magico Gonzalez wrote: »

How do those stats stack up against any possible replacement? Who is going to come in?

Tebow??!!..come on, sadly for the Broncos they don't have a replacement ready to go that knows the offence and is good enough. Problem for them to solve.

Tebow isn't an NFL QB - he was an unknown quantity for five games a few years ago and then he was done,

But the question really isn't about the Broncos - is Manning able to critically assess his declining abilities and realise that he is damaging his reputation and embarrassing himself? In my opinion he should 'suffer' a season-ending injury and retire now rather than continue to decline and become a liability for himself and his team.

El Horseboxo

I'll only say yes because I don't like watching him play like this now.

JaMarcusHustle

I don't think it's jumping the gun to say the Broncos are 5-0 in spite of Peyton Manning rather than because of him.

However, asking if he should retire is a silly question. If he wants to keep playing, he can keep playing as long as someone is willing to pay him to do so. I also don't get the argument that a reputation as stellar as Manning's can be "damaged" or "tarnished". Retiring on a high is a silly notion. I don't consider Ed Reed's accomplishments to be less impressive following his stints with the Jets, Texans etc. I don't consider Favre's records to mean less because of his time with New York or his last season with Minnesota. Likewise Randy Moss after he bounced around Minnesota, Tennessee and San Francisco towards the end. What these players have accomplished is already done, it can't be taken away.

Manning will go down as arguably a top 5 QB of all time, definitely a top 10. So what if age and injury catches up with him? He wouldn't be playing if he didn't still love it, who are any fans to tell him when to call it quits?

Paully D

I never really got to see much of Peyton at his ultimate peak (pre-injury at Colts) but it's one of the saddest things in sports when as a fan you watch a player come up, peak and then start to decline. However, there's no chance he retires during the season. None. Even if they were 0-5 he still wouldn't do it.

I honestly think he'll play through his contract and retire at the end of the 2016 season. The man has more money than he could ever hope to spend, but I still can't see him leaving $19m on the table next year and the Broncos won't release him.

He certainly has deteriorated, there's no getting away from that, but in ways he hasn't really been helped either. The O-line is very poor at the moment. PFF ranked them at 22nd in pass blocking and 20th in run blocking prior to week 5 so they're probably even lower now. There's also absolutely no run game. Denver are 30th overall in rushing yards per game and last year's C.J. Anderson has this year been replaced by someone who won a competition to play for the Broncos as an RB for a season. He's in a completely new style offense too.

At 5-0 in the AFC West coupled with their remaining schedule, they're essentially in the playoffs already and look to be in a 3 horse race for the #1 and #2 seeds. With that defense, I still wouldn't rule them completely out of the weak AFC. As things stand the Patriots likely beat them, sure. The Bengals still have it all to prove in the playoffs. The Colts even with Luck under centre have been stuttering massively this season and need to improve big time. Steelers could certainly put it up to them if Ben is back early enough to nick a wildcard spot. I wouldn't even consider anyone else at the moment.

It would be fantastically ironic if a defense were to carry Peyton for a season for once. :pac:

As an aside, Osweiler won't make a starting NFL QB as long as I have a hole in my arse IMO. It'll be interesting to see what happens there in the coming months as he's a free agent in 2016.

eagle eye

As long as the Broncos are going to the playoffs he shouldn't retire imo. A couple of years after your prime is not going to destroy your reputation. It's the guys that go long past their prime that tarnish their rep.

Son Of A Vidic

Peyton was very poor in the latter half of last season and it looked like his time was due. This season, I've seen nothing to suggest that last season was just a blip in form. He is clearly now on a downhill spiral and I think he probably should have retired at the end of 2014. The more he plays the way he's playing, the further he gets away from the Peyton I remember and enjoyed watching throughout his career. I can't see him doing a lot to contribute towards winning another ring and as Paully said, he'll probably have to depend on his defense for that. So if he stays on for that fair enough. Right now he's not the player I remember and that's always kinda sad when it's one of the greats. He himself can't be happy with his own standard of play and he certainly doesn't need the money. The only thing he stands to lose is his health and I would be fearful of another serious injury to his neck at his age. So I'm hoping he rides off into the sunset soon and doesn't risk his health any further.

BizzyC

I'd suspect Manning will be benched before the end of the year.

The Broncos D is legitimate, but they wont stand a chance against a team like the Pats that will do enough on offence to get the upper hand while holding out their struggling O.

If they want to compete on the big stage, they'll need a change at the helm.
Making that move may trigger Manning to retire at the end of the season rather than sit on a bench to collect his $19m next season.

StringerBell

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

There is a Broncos thread - but this really isn't about the Broncos - its about Manning as a player.

Who is a Broncos player, so would be grand to be discussed in that thread

The mods seem fine with it so no problems from me

kennyb3

It's good to have threads on the main forum - it can sometimes feel a bit weird dipping into other teams threads and I'm sure many don't look into every one so you can miss a lot of good discussions.

Anyway I cringe slightly seeing Manning of late. He looks so frail and his arm so so weak.

bruschi

I cant see Manning either being retired or let go mid season. They knew what he was like prior to this, and they kept it going. It is sad to see. And even from a Patriots point of view, the Brady/Manning debates used to be great craic, but it's not even up for discussion anymore. As per the QB thread, Rodgers has taken his position atop the pedestal, and Manning is an after thought now. Bradys last superbowl ended their debate, and from a purely selfish point of view, I didnt want Manning to win a superbowl ahead of Brady again. But now, its a pity that even his brother will have more rings than him, so if he does somehow get one this year, which is not beyond the realms of possiblity, then I certainly wouldnt begrudge it to him.

D9Male

Broncos are likely to go to the playoffs. If I were a Broncos fan, I would rather have Manning under centre in January, rather than Osweiler or some dud they trade in.

The Broncos have no better options. He clearly wants to play. They are 5-0. To me, he needs to play on.

Jolly Red Giant

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Peyton was very poor in the latter half of last season and it looked like his time was due. This season, I've seen nothing to suggest that last season was just a blip in form. He is clearly now on a downhill spiral and I think he probably should have retired at the end of 2014. The more he plays the way he's playing, the further he gets away from the Peyton I remember and enjoyed watching throughout his career. I can't see him doing a lot to contribute towards winning another ring and as Paully said, he'll probably have to depend on his defense for that. So if he stays on for that fair enough. Right now he's not the player I remember and that's always kinda sad when it's one of the greats. He himself can't be happy with his own standard of play and he certainly doesn't need the money. The only thing he stands to lose is his health and I would be fearful of another serious injury to his neck at his age. So I'm hoping he rides off into the sunset soon and doesn't risk his health any further.

I have to agree with you CM - Manning is so slow and immobile that he is a sitting duck for defences. The OL is so weak and Manning is so limited that defences can just pin back their ears and go after him. Manning has been 'sacked' 12 times so far but he hasn't even been touched on half of these, simply crumbling to the ground at the first sign of pressure. There is no sentimentality in football and pass rushers will hammer him if they get the opportunity. He was badly banged up last season and wasn't able to recover (which led to his injury against the Chargers) and his body clearly cannot take any more punishment. His neck is always a concern but given his decline physically he is now open to the possibility of many other serious injuries.

On a couple of other issues - the Chart showing Manning's 'ability' to throw 'deep' - stats don't tell everything. A large number of those 'deep' passes were actually short to intermediate range with large chunks of yardage being picked up after the catch. Manning always floated his deep ball. Now Manning in his prime more than compensated for this weakness by his other vast skills and his inability to throw deep didn't matter. Now, because of his decline it makes a massive difference to the team and to Manning himself as it is exposing him to a relentless pass rush. And the defences Manning has faced so far have shown to be far from stellar.

The suggestion that Manning will see out the remainder of his contract next season - that will not happen - if he refuses to retire he will 'fail' the medical that is built into his contract (and that is what should have happened this off-season).

It is not a case of Manning being 'a couple of years past his prime' - he was a couple of years past his prime two years ago. Manning has gone into a rapid decline. The primary reason he has put any points on the board offensively is because the Broncos D is getting him the ball in great field position by turing it over. After the Lions game the media were raving about his 45 yard bomb to DT for a TD. But it wasn't a 45 yard bomb it was a 25 yard jump ball that DT managed to outjump the CB and run it in from 20 yards out.

Last point - the Broncos have no idea what they have in Osweiler. It is clear that he has the physical attributes to run a WCO and he has been on a learning curve for four years now. At a certain point in time the Broncos have to find out if he can actually become a servicable QB in the NFL. The big thing that Os has going for him over Manning is that he can throw a deep ball (and accurately) and defences would have to respect that if Os was on the field - they don't with Manning.

Knex*

I really don't see any better option for the Broncos right now, tbh.

Undoubtedly Manning needs to retire in the offseason, however.

nasty_crash

ah look you have to remember that there is a new system in place at the broncos with kubiak - and to think they want a run heavy slower offense! When manning gets to pick up the pace and call quick plays he has a top 2 pairing with Sanders and Thomas - get run after catch players - and he showed he can do that in the last quarter in week 2 against the chiefs!!

Right im not saying that its not mannings fault i think that he is done at the end of the year (i think he should have retired this summer) - but - his Offensive Coach - his Running Backs - and his Offensive Line - are not doing him any favours at all with their play - and it all comes back on Peyton

bruschi

one of my favorite gifs with Manning and Osweiler...

Paully D

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Last point - the Broncos have no idea what they have in Osweiler. It is clear that he has the physical attributes to run a WCO and he has been on a learning curve for four years now. At a certain point in time the Broncos have to find out if he can actually become a servicable QB in the NFL. The big thing that Os has going for him over Manning is that he can throw a deep ball (and accurately) and defences would have to respect that if Os was on the field - they don't with Manning.

But doing it now while the team is 5-0, even though Manning has deteriorated, would be ridiculous IMO. If the coaching staff tried to do it and they lost a game they'd be absolutely strung up by the balls and rightly so. It's just not the right time. It's a better discussion if they've lost a few games IMO because lets be honest, we all know a change is not going to be made when a team is 5-0 regardless of how it has happened.

Osweiler is huge and has a rocket arm, that's literally all anyone can go on. He played 15 games in college and was a very questionable decision-maker in those games. Sure, sitting behind and learning from Manning every day in practice will ensure he has had the opportunity to learn from one of the best, but at the end of the day there's a massive difference between throwing the ball a total of 30 times in garbage time over a period of 3 years to starting behind one of the worst offensive lines in the NFL.

Personally, I think Broncos fans championing Osweiler over Manning would be in for a rude awakening if a change was to happen now. Manning, while clearly massively deteriorating, still has the smarts and thus he appears to stilll be checking out of/into the right play far more often than not. Would you really trust Osweiler to be able to run the show well enough behind that O-line to avoid getting demolished? I certainly wouldn't. There's also no run game (the line now ranks 29th in run blocking per Football Outsiders) and while it would get better with a cannon, how much better can it really get with that sort of run blocking? That means you've got to be confident in what is essentially a rookie in terms of playing time throwing the ball ~30 times a game?

Manning, regardless of the deterioration, is the better option as thing stand IMO. The Broncos face a trickier run between now and December (@ Browns, vs Packers, @ Colts, vs Chiefs, @ Bears, vs Patriots). It'll be interesting to review things after that Monday Night Football game against the Patriots on the last day in November.

Jolly Red Giant

Paully D wrote: »

But doing it now while the team is 5-0, even though Manning has deteriorated, would be ridiculous IMO. If the coaching staff tried to do it and they lost a game they'd be absolutely strung up by the balls and rightly so. It's just not the right time. It's a better discussion if they've lost a few games IMO because lets be honest, we all know a change is not going to be made when a team is 5-0 regardless of how it has happened.

Paully - I am not actually advocating the replacement of Manning by Os. Its not going to happen. The reason I started the treat was to look at Manning and whether he should retire given the rapid decline in his play (and it has been very rapid), the damage continuing to play might do to his standing in the NFL and the increased risk, because Manning is so slow, that he might suffer a serious injury

Paully D wrote: »

Manning, regardless of the deterioration, is the better option as thing stand IMO. The Broncos face a trickier run between now and December (@ Browns, vs Packers, @ Colts, vs Chiefs, @ Bears, vs Patriots). It'll be interesting to review things after that Monday Night Football game against the Patriots on the last day in November.

In my opinion the Packers game is the key one. No matter how good the Denver D is they cannot hold out Rodgers and the Packers O for the game (particularly given the amount of possession the Packers will have) and the Packers D will pound Manning for the entire game.

It is debatable whether Manning is the better option. His was atrocious in the first two games when the Broncos ran a kind of hybrid offence. He picked up a little against the Lions when they went to the pistol but now defences have adjusted again and he was absolutely awful against the Raiders on Sunday. Once opposing teams know that the Manning can't pass further than 10 yards and the Broncos cannot run when Manning isn't under center it is very easy to defend against. If Os replaced Manning it would not be pretty but at least the Broncos could fully implement the WCO and ZBS, improving the running game and forcing defences to play honest against the pass.

Broncos will likely win against the Browns next week, lose to the Packers, the Colts are awful so the Broncos could win that one, they will probably beat the Chiefs (particularly with Charles out), the Bears are terrible and the Broncos should win that one and lose to the Pats. They would then be 9-2 and I would think that the Broncos would be 9-2 with Os just as easy as with Manning because the defence will win all those games.

All of this is mute - because Manning will remain as QB unless he gets hurt or decides to call it a day. The question is what will Manning be like by the end of the season after throwing 45 times a game and facing defences that only have to play 10 yards deep?

Jolly Red Giant

nasty_crash wrote: »

and he showed he can do that in the last quarter in week 2 against the chiefs!!

And he could well do that again this season in a game or two - but he cannot do it consistently, or even on a regular basis.

nasty_crash wrote: »

Right im not saying that its not mannings fault i think that he is done at the end of the year (i think he should have retired this summer) - but - his Offensive Coach - his Running Backs - and his Offensive Line - are not doing him any favours at all with their play - and it all comes back on Peyton

The question posed by this is as follows - is the problems with the offence down to the OL, the RBs and the Coaches not helping Manning - or is it that no matter what the OL, RBs and Coaches do Manning is not able to do anything. The Broncos OL lost Clady in the off-season and it is a young inexperienced line set up to run the ZBS - but it can't run the ZBS because Manning can't play under center and the OL isn't big enough to power block. The RBs do not have enough time and momentum to pick the holes and cut back because Manning is playing out of the shotgun. The OL is actually giving Manning enough time to throw the ball because of his quick release but Manning can't get any zip on his passes so every pass is put into space in the hope the WRs get there. It is a point of contention whether its Manning or the result of the offence that is the problem - clearly both are in part responsible but each game is showing more that Manning can't get the job done any more and cannot play as a game manager.

JCTO

To replace Manning with a largely untested QB would be nuts and career suicide for any coach.

Christy42

I always hate these threads. Manning should keep playing as long as he is enjoying it. The only caveat to this is I would worry about him getting injured. Should the coaches put him on the field is another question but that is on the coaches and not on Manning.

I always hate these threads suggesting people should retire in their prime. The man is doing something he loves and getting paid for it which is more than most of us can hope for.

bruschi

Christy42 wrote: »

I always hate these threads. Manning should keep playing as long as he is enjoying it. The only caveat to this is I would worry about him getting injured. Should the coaches put him on the field is another question but that is on the coaches and not on Manning.

I always hate these threads suggesting people should retire in their prime. The man is doing something he loves and getting paid for it which is more than most of us can hope for.

Manning is far far removed from his prime. he wont be gone this year, but I cant see him hanging around next year. I think he is too competitive to see himself slip back and not be able to perform.

Paully D

bruschi wrote: »

Manning is far far removed from his prime. he wont be gone this year, but I cant see him hanging around next year. I think he is too competitive to see himself slip back and not be able to perform.

If he's healthy do you think he'll walk away and thus leave $19m on the table? I know he has career earnings of $245m and more money from endorsements alone that he could probably ever spend, but $19m?

Jolly Red Giant

JCTO wrote: »

To replace Manning with a largely untested QB would be nuts and career suicide for any coach.

Manning is not going to be replaced and no one is suggesting he should be replaced (it is a different question whether the Broncos would still be 5-0 if Os was QB instead of Manning)

bruschi wrote: »

Manning is far far removed from his prime. he wont be gone this year, but I cant see him hanging around next year. I think he is too competitive to see himself slip back and not be able to perform.

And that is the key point - the decline in Manning has been dramatic and it looks like it will continue. Can Manning recognise this decline or does he believe that he can turn it around?

Paully D wrote: »

If he's healthy do you think he'll walk away and thus leave $19m on the table? I know he has career earnings of $245m and more money from endorsements alone that he could probably ever spend, but $19m?

The remaining year of Manning's contract is not guaranteed. He has to take and pass a team medical in March before the contract kicks in. If Manning doesn't retire he will 'fail' the medical. If Elway knew last March that Manning was going to decline so rapidly and so much I suspect he would have 'failed' that medical as well. It appears that Manning convinced Elway that the decline last season was because of the injury against the Chargers when in fact it was his declining ability due to age.

Paully D

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

The remaining year of Manning's contract is not guaranteed. He has to take and pass a team medical in March before the contract kicks in. If Manning doesn't retire he will 'fail' the medical. If Elway knew last March that Manning was going to decline so rapidly and so much I suspect he would have 'failed' that medical as well. It appears that Manning convinced Elway that the decline last season was because of the injury against the Chargers when in fact it was his declining ability due to age.

Presuming he wants to play on, if he's healthy enough he'll pass the medical. It's not as if the Broncos will be able to say "oh look, sorry but you've failed the medical, what a shame that is" and get out of the contract. The Broncos aren't going to play that sort of game as it won't end well for them. He'll have to genuinely be unhealthy enough to fail the medical, though in fairness the way things are going that might actually happen. Who knows how the few months will turn out.

Of course if both parties agree I guess it could be a way out for both that is kind from a PR viewpoint, but with $19m on the line and on the back of a certain playoff berth again this season, I'd be very skeptical that he won't want to return for that farewell money if healthy.

Jolly Red Giant

Paully D wrote: »

Presuming he wants to play on, if he's healthy enough he'll pass the medical. It's not as if the Broncos will be able to say "oh look, sorry but you've failed the medical, what a shame that is" and get out of the contract. The Broncos aren't going to play that sort of game as it won't end well for them. He'll have to genuinely be unhealthy enough to fail the medical, though in fairness the way things are going that might actually happen. Who knows how the few months will turn out.

Of course if both parties agree I guess it could be a way out for both that is kind from a PR viewpoint, but with $19m on the line and on the back of a certain playoff berth again this season, I'd be very skeptical that he won't want to return for that farewell money if healthy.

Manning should have retired last season - I guarantee you he will not be a Bronco next year.

JCTO

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Manning is not going to be replaced and no one is suggesting he should be replaced (it is a different question whether the Broncos would still be 5-0 if Os was QB instead of Manning)

Yes you are to be fair. You are saying he should retire therefore go therefor be replaced. Whether that is mid season or the next season it is the same thing.

Why should Manning retire? If he feels good and is still able to play he has every right to play on. Just because Broncos fans are p1ssed off with him doesn't mean he should retire. As for the talk of him ruining his own legacy? BS really it wont affect him at all.

The Broncos system doesn't suit Manning. That doesn't mean he is done though and we will see that if the Broncos don't re-adjust to their QB going forward and he leaves to go to a team that will use his strengths rather than cry about his apparent weaknesses.

He will most likely play next season and if he does leave you can guarantee there will be teams that will give their right nuts to take him and also adjust to his abilities and get a productive season out of him.

As to your original question about the Broncos being 5-0 with Osweiller. How can anyone possibly answer a what if based on hindsights. Osweiller is still an untested QB and there are a lot of factors that play into whether or not you guys would still be 5-0 with him starting.

Jolly Red Giant

JCTO wrote: »

The Broncos system doesn't suit Manning. That doesn't mean he is done though and we will see that if the Broncos don't re-adjust to their QB going forward and he leaves to go to a team that will use his strengths rather than cry about his apparent weaknesses.

The Broncos used a hybrid offence for the first two games this season trying to get Manning to take some snaps under centre. Since then Kubiak has basically gone right back to the Manning pistol offence because Manning can't do anything else. Manning is a one dimensional QB who can play in his system but nothing else - he has been exceptional at running his offence all his career and he has a very sharp mind that you need for what he does. The problem is that he doesn't have the physical ability to do this anymore - he is slow and weak and is releasing the ball as quick as he can into space without adjusting to the receivers.

He will most likely play next season and if he does leave you can guarantee there will be teams that will give their right nuts to take him and also adjust to his abilities and get a productive season out of him.

I think it would be a serious mistake for him to play next year - and a big mistake for any team to take him. His play has dropped off a cliff since the middle of last season and it is continuing to decline on a game by game basis.

As to your original question about the Broncos being 5-0 with Osweiller. How can anyone possibly answer a what if based on hindsights. Osweiller is still an untested QB and there are a lot of factors that play into whether or not you guys would still be 5-0 with him starting.

It wasn't my original question - others raised that point. The key point to be made about the 5-0 that the Broncos possesses is that it is exclusively down to the Denver D and their ability to create big turnovers. Last week against the Raiders the D - either through a turnover or driving the Raiders back - put Manning in excellent field position and the Broncos ended up kicking three FGs and then when Manning couldn't move the ball in the second half the D stepped up again pressured Carr and returned an INT for a TD - closing out the game by keeping the Raiders in check. That has been the season for the Broncos with the exception of one drive against KC.

Os is completely untested - and has well known limitations. But the upside is that he fits the WCO and the Broncos would have more success running the ball with OS as QB. He would make a ton of mistakes - but the Broncos D will carry the team to the play-offs. The problem with Manning is that he is making a ton of mistakes as it is and the run game will be anemic all season long - and the D is spending so much time on the field that they will eventually wear down and get hurt (like Ware who is out next game).

JCTO

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

The Broncos used a hybrid offence for the first two games this season trying to get Manning to take some snaps under centre. Since then Kubiak has basically gone right back to the Manning pistol offence because Manning can't do anything else. Manning is a one dimensional QB who can play in his system but nothing else - he has been exceptional at running his offence all his career and he has a very sharp mind that you need for what he does. The problem is that he doesn't have the physical ability to do this anymore - he is slow and weak and is releasing the ball as quick as he can into space without adjusting to the receivers.

Pistol offense still doesn't suit Manning all that well. But you are proving my point. You have a QB like Manning you find a system that works for him and plays to his strengths especially when he has lost some of his edge. And all of your opinions on his weaknesses are just that your opinion. There are many out there that will disagree with your opinion and many that say Manning is done.

I think it would be a serious mistake for him to play next year - and a big mistake for any team to take him. His play has dropped off a cliff since the middle of last season and it is continuing to decline on a game by game basis.

Again your opinion. If Manning feels he is good to go he will continue to go and if not in Denver teams will jump on him. The same was said about Favre and he nearly took the Vikes to a bowl. If it wasn't for the Saints defense smashing him up and head hunting him knowing his age would play a huge factor with injuries he probably could have done it.

It wasn't my original question - others raised that point.

Oh?

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

This is actually being debated by Broncos fans - and the conclusion at the moment is probably yes. Osweiler has all the physical skills needed to play QB and specifically to operate the WCO. He has a cannon for an arm, can roll-out and is effective with play-action. Many Broncos fans believe that with Os defences would have to play honest and respect the deep ball, the running game would improve because Os would play under center and an improved running game would help the offence all around,

The key point to be made about the 5-0 that the Broncos possesses is that it is exclusively down to the Denver D and their ability to create big turnovers. Last week against the Raiders the D - either through a turnover or driving the Raiders back - put Manning in excellent field position and the Broncos ended up kicking three FGs and then when Manning couldn't move the ball in the second half the D stepped up again pressured Carr and returned an INT for a TD - closing out the game by keeping the Raiders in check. That has been the season for the Broncos with the exception of one drive against KC.

No one is debating that your defense is winning games.

Os is completely untested - and has well known limitations. But the upside is that he fits the WCO and the Broncos would have more success running the ball with OS as QB. He would make a ton of mistakes - but the Broncos D will carry the team to the play-offs. The problem with Manning is that he is making a ton of mistakes as it is and the run game will be anemic all season long - and the D is spending so much time on the field that they will eventually wear down and get hurt (like Ware who is out next game).

So an untested QB is a better option than Manning? Probably not. I have a feeling if Osweiller went in and the Broncos started to tank you would be throwing him under the bus also.

Jolly Red Giant

JCTO wrote: »

You have a QB like Manning you find a system that works for him and plays to his strengths especially when he has lost some of his edge.

if he had simply lost 'some of his edge' that would be more than workable.

And all of your opinions on his weaknesses are just that your opinion. There are many out there that will disagree with your opinion and many that say Manning is done.

Have a look at the stats I posted in he OP - in particular the fact that the Broncos had a 3rd down conversion rate of 18% against the Raiders. I have watched every single Broncos game since Manning became QB. He was not the elite player he was with the Colts when he arrived - his arm strength was diminished from the neck injury - but he played a major role in bringing the Broncos from the disaster of McDaniels back to competitors and restoring the standing of the franchise. His play started to drop in a serious way in the middle of last season and was compounded by the injury. He is now playing worse than he was when he was hurt at the tail end of last season and the decline is continuing on a game by game basis - the Raiders was his worst game since he joined the Broncos.

If Manning feels he is good to go he will continue to go and if not in Denver teams will jump on him. The same was said about Favre and he nearly took the Vikes to a bowl. If it wasn't for the Saints defense smashing him up and head hunting him knowing his age would play a huge factor with injuries he probably could have done it.

Farve was bad - Manning could be worse at this stage - and Manning might get to the SB because of the Denver D

Oh?

Come on now - have a look and you will see that it was a response to another post

So an untested QB is a better option than Manning? Probably not.

Again - I never made such a claim - others are suggesting that if Os was the starting QB the Broncos would not be 5-0. I am suggesting that the D won the games and the Broncos could still be 5-0. I am not and never have suggested that Manning should be benched for Os.

I have a feeling if Osweiller went in and the Broncos started to tank you would be throwing him under the bus also.

I am a Broncos fan and I defend the Broncos players even when they are not playing well. This thread was not started by me to criticise Manning and suggest he be replaced - I started the thread to pose the question has the play of Manning fallen off a cliff (which I think it has) and as a result should he consider retiring in order not the damage his standing in the NFL and to avoid possible serious injury (which is far more likely in the current situation)

JCTO

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

if he had simply lost 'some of his edge' that would be more than workable.

Oh that is right Manning in your eyes Manning is done. My apologies

Have a look at the stats I posted in he OP - in particular the fact that the Broncos had a 3rd down conversion rate of 18% against the Raiders. I have watched every single Broncos game since Manning became QB. He was not the elite player he was with the Colts when he arrived - his arm strength was diminished from the neck injury - but he played a major role in bringing the Broncos from the disaster of McDaniels back to competitors and restoring the standing of the franchise. His play started to drop in a serious way in the middle of last season and was compounded by the injury. He is now playing worse than he was when he was hurt at the tail end of last season and the decline is continuing on a game by game basis - the Raiders was his worst game since he joined the Broncos.

If you say so.

Farve was bad - Manning could be worse at this stage - and Manning might get to the SB because of the Denver D

Favre was bad? He got the Vikings to the NFC Championship and lost the game to the Saints after they bashed him up. His final season he did ok but in 2010 their oline was banged up as were their WR. It was the back end of 2010 injury saw the end of Favre.

Come on now - have a look and you will see that it was a response to another post

The other post mentioned the backup filling in and said the backup wasnt ready

How do those stats stack up against any possible replacement? Who is going to come in?

Tebow??!!..come on, sadly for the Broncos they don't have a replacement ready to go that knows the offence and is good enough. Problem for them to solve.

They brought up the question and you made the point to be fair.

Again - I never made such a claim - others are suggesting that if Os was the starting QB the Broncos would not be 5-0. I am suggesting that the D won the games and the Broncos could still be 5-0. I am not and never have suggested that Manning should be benched for Os.

Your point is MAnning should retire. And you mentioned this

This is actually being debated by Broncos fans - and the conclusion at the moment is probably yes. Osweiler has all the physical skills needed to play QB and specifically to operate the WCO. He has a cannon for an arm, can roll-out and is effective with play-action. Many Broncos fans believe that with Os defences would have to play honest and respect the deep ball, the running game would improve because Os would play under center and an improved running game would help the offence all around,

Which 100% suggest the Osweiller would be better and be better than Manning. Do you even read anymore what you write?

I am a Broncos fan and I defend the Broncos players even when they are not playing well. This thread was not started by me to criticise Manning and suggest he be replaced - I started the thread to pose the question has the play of Manning fallen off a cliff (which I think it has) and as a result should he consider retiring in order not the damage his standing in the NFL and to avoid possible serious injury (which is far more likely in the current situation)

You have done nothing but criticise Manning though. Almost seems like you are asking the question should he retire so you can tell us why he should retire while criticizing him a long the way

Hulk Hands

bruschi wrote: »

Manning is far far removed from his prime. he wont be gone this year, but I cant see him hanging around next year. I think he is too competitive to see himself slip back and not be able to perform.

He's one season removed from one of the greatest QB seasons of all time, when his team were statistically the greatest offense of all time. Hardly that far removed from his prime. Personally think he's fallen from those heights a little too quickly for it to be just age. I think he'll either turn it around or some underlying injury will force him out of the game

raze_them_all_

There are some things every retired player says they miss, The comraderie of the locker room and the roar of the crowd on the field. It's like a drug, and manning has been chasing that dragon a long ass time

Jolly Red Giant

Manning had another rough game last night - 1TD and 3 INTs - he now leads the league in INTs.

Over the last three weeks Manning's play has continued to decline

Week 4 - ranked 28 out of 30 - QBR of 68.9
Week 5 - ranked 28 out of 30 - QBR of 62.3
Week 6 - ranked 28 out of 28 - QBR of 53.3

The Broncos won the game and Manning should be given credit for a 30yd pass to Sanders which he ran in for a 75yd TD - but the Broncos should never have needed it. Manning had previously tossed a pass out into the flat behind Ronnie Hillman that was INT and run in for a TD. The Browns foolishly went for a failed 2pt conversion - if they had kicked the PAT they would have won in regular time.

It is really sad to see Manning's play deteriorate to such a degree and lead to the poorest play of any QB in the league - and there are some donkeys playing QB. Manning keeps making excuses and avoiding the problems he is facing. In an interview after the game he said he wouldn't be going to Vagas during the bye-week implying he is being plagued by bad-luck - it's not bad luck - it's bad play.

Paully D

3 or 4 bad drops from his receivers didn't help, but there's no getting away from the fact that he was absolutely horrendous yesterday. I still don't think Brock Osweiler will be the answer to anything however.

I posted this over the on the week 6 thread but it's probably best placed here -

Crazy how it seems to just go though [Manning's ability], isn't it?

Looking back at the game logs, by all means he was there or thereabouts consistently his usual self until around week 14 last season. Then bang, suddenly he goes (on TD's/INT's) 0/2, 1/0, 2/4, 0/0 and 1/0 with passer ratings of 56.9, 61.8, 80.0 and a 125.6 thrown in there before this seasons well documented issues.

Anyone think he could be still playing injured or has it gone, just like that?

Knex*

I only started watching NFL around 2007, and really it was 2010/11 before I was able to watch it with any regularity, and probably 2012/13 before I really started getting invested in the game and in anyway knowledgable. But it is damn sad for me to see Manning like this now. I can't imagine what its like for people who watched him from 1998, or even in college prior to the NFL.

I hope this doesn't taint his reputation for some. One of the best to ever play the game, and he brought that QB position and the passing attack on so much in his time in the league, I feel. All that work he does presnap, his hurry up offense, and his religious, dogged preparation and study of the game.

Himself and Brady, who'll he'll inevitably always be associated with, are pioneers of the modern quarterback, and the modern game in general.

JCTO

If the Broncos stand any chance of getting anything out of Manning they are going to have to adjust their whole offense mid season. The problem with that though as we have seen and JRG has pointed out their lineman are so used to a full zone system as are their backs. As they are using a Hybrid system they can't even get production out of their backs who lets face it are not hard nosed downhill runners.

Tough one as the system doesn't completely suit a healthy Manning and sure as hell doesn't suit a banged up Manning. No time in the pocket and having to make reads so quickly is not helping him.

raze_them_all_

Also why the **** is manning running draws or whatever it is when he rolls out, I could tackle manning if I left for america today before he ran 10 yards

D9Male

It is early days, and lots can change, but it looks like Denver are going toe-to-toe with the Bengals and New England for the top two seeds in the post season. November is going to be crucial - it is a month where they host Green Bay and New England, and travel to the Colts. It is hard to see them winning more than one of those games with Manning under centre.

But if they do, their remaining schedule isn't too bad. If Manning can manage them to a #1 or #2 seed in the post season, then they have a chance in any individual game with that defensive play.

Son Of A Vidic

Paully D wrote: »

Anyone think he could be still playing injured or has it gone, just like that?

I don't think he's playing injured. Mainly because a lot of his poor play has come from mental errors, poor decision making, telegraphing passes ect. Even looking back to 2013 when he had a very good season, his throwing mechanics back then were really deteriorating and he threw so many ducks. But having a very good WR corp around him really helped and maybe deflected people's attention from the physical deterioration that was happening back then.

In most sports, athletes will usually deteriorate physically before they lose it mentally. With Manning I think the physical part has been happening since 2012 and now we see the mental part and a QB can't hide from that. I think 2013 was the year he shouldn't have walked, it was a swansong season and half way through 2014 he just ran out of gas.

As someone who saw Manning enter the league, it's a sad site to behold and it's not so much that time has caught up with him. But rather that he appears to be happy enough going out there each week and playing to a standard that's just not him. You get accustomed to the likes of Manning & Brady carrying their teams through the years. But right now, pretty much everybody is carrying Peyton. Yes he certainly earned it, I just thought he never be happy with it or even put up with it.

BizzyC

It's sad to see the decline alright, he was really a great player once, but right now it seems as though the broncos are winning in spite of him.

Osweiler may not be the long term solution, but make a trade, there are plenty of guys around the league who could come in and do enough to make that team competative down the stretch. (Yes they're 5-0 now, but I can't see the defence alone beating the Packers, Patriots, Colts, Steelers, Bengals, Cardinals)

Christy42

It could also be about options. The offense and his failing physical abilities mean that there are only so many plays the Broncos can run. It means the defense knows what is coming and makes it harder and harder for him Manning to pull it off. It forces him into bad decisions to try and move the football as the defense can cover all his options much easier than they could 3 years ago.

Jolly Red Giant

Christy42 wrote: »

It could also be about options. The offense and his failing physical abilities mean that there are only so many plays the Broncos can run. It means the defense knows what is coming and makes it harder and harder for him Manning to pull it off. It forces him into bad decisions to try and move the football as the defense can cover all his options much easier than they could 3 years ago.

The Broncos are limited on offence because Manning can't throw the ball further than 10 yards. Once every couple of games he will manage to heave one off that doesn't float for ever (like last night for the Sanders TD) but it is generally a case that he is extremely limited in range.

As a result opponents don't have to worry about a deep ball, can stack the box, focus on stopping the run and then let loose with pressure. Manning is making a ton of mistakes, he cannot move the offence. Even last night when the Broncos got their running game going against an anemic run D of the Browns, with the exception of one pass, Manning couldn't get the job done.

The OL is struggling - the loss of Clady has resulted in a very inexperienced line that has not gelled. Last night the starting LT Sambrailo and the starting LG Mathis were out injured with rookie guard Max Garcia starting and back-up journeyman Polumbus. Gracia has huge upsides and will be a starting G for the Broncos for years to come but will struggle to produce in the current line. The primary issue with the line is that the players were drafted with the physical skills to run stretch plays using the ZBS. But the Broncos cannot utilise the ZBS because Manning cannot operate under center. The OL cannot run a power game because the linemen are too light and get pushed off the ball.

The problem for Manning is that things are not going to get any better (despite his continuous claims it will). Manning's decline began before the injury last season - the injury actually masked the decline in that it was used as an excuse to cover up his decline (and that was the story spun by Manning's handlers). Manning has been fortunate - the Broncos have played teams that have not had the most stellar of defences. There are a number of games coming up that could lead to much bigger problems for Manning and much more difficult issues for the coaching staff to address. The biggest danger is that the OL won't be able to help Manning and he could get seriously hurt.

It is unfortunate now because some commentators are now seriously asking the question whether Manning should be benched. Last week Kubiak had to address a series of questions from journalists about Manning's play and whether he should be on the pitch. Last night Manning's teammates were asked similar questions. It is clear that some on the Broncos defence are getting frustrated with the lack of production from Manning and the offence. Talib was far from steadfast in his support from Manning when it was pointed out to him that he has more touchdowns from INTs that the No.1 WR, Thomas and starting RB, Anderson who have a combined 1 TD between them.

It really is sad when a QB of Manning's standing, a player who, as has been said, raised the bar for QB play, being talked about in terms of being benched. The decline is there for everyone to see. Manning will not be benched by Elway and Kubiak - but if the level of play from Manning continues to be the worst QB play in the league then who would rule out the possibility of him suffering an 'injury'.

raze_them_all_

It's almost time to bust this out of retirement

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvQ5J_-rAls

Magico Gonzalez

I think this is a fair ranking over the season, criteria set out clearly enough. As of one week ago there were 10 qb's worse than him.

Enough to retire? No. He'd need to be flat bottom and drifting I would bet. They won't bench him at 6-0, end of discussion. He will retire in the off season, at which point Denver will be stuck with Os, good luck with that.

Jolly Red Giant

Magico Gonzalez wrote: »

I think this is a fair ranking over the season, criteria set out clearly enough. As of one week ago there were 10 qb's worse than him.

Enough to retire? No. He'd need to be flat bottom and drifting I would bet. They won't bench him at 6-0, end of discussion. He will retire in the off season, at which point Denver will be stuck with Os, good luck with that.

The hope for Manning this season is for him to stop trying to do what he has done all his career - trying to carry the offence. If Manning stops the mistakes and protects the ball - trusts the rest of his teammates and rides the defence - then the Broncos will be in a much healthier position. It's the mistakes by Manning that is making the games tight for the Broncos. By becoming a game manager Manning could end up going a long way this season.

Personally I don't think he can do this - it goes against everything he has ever done and I don't think he can do it any different.

SantryRed

I bet Dom Capers makes him look great again in two weeks time.