Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

AbusesToilets

irishbucsfan wrote: »

We got embarrassed by a very good team missing 5 of our best players. Yes that is true.

Most of the problems started in our midfield and yes we should have had a better backup for the loss of Payne but we have just spent the past year settling Payne into the jersey so it's somewhat excusable. The second they moved the ball past Henshaw we were all over the place and they were turning us. We put little pressure on them inside (missing one of the best defensive 10s on the planet didn't help there) which didn't help. Our tight 5 were pedestrian so the second the Argentinians moved the ball away from contact they were creating overlaps and mismatches with ease. We were embarrassed defensively for sure.

Our loss had little to do with our game plan in possession though, although we were pretty wasteful in comparison to normal (anyone who expected otherwise is out of their mind), it was caused by our inability to stop Argentina continuously playing around our defensive line and moving up the field at will. That isn't something a lot of teams can do to us, not even the All Blacks were capable of that against us, but they played against a much more experienced and settled midfield which meant a much more cohesive defensive system.

Fix our defensive issues and the game would have been entirely different. That was our biggest problem by far, not the vague issues people have with our game plan. We were two tries down before the game even really started and chasing that sort of game is not the sort of thing you want to be doing after losing the guys we did.

I'd agree completely that the defense the root of our lose, but looking at the Pumas effectiveness with ball in hand, when have you seen Ireland play that well? Are our players less capable than theirs, that we can't look to pursue a similar style of play, allied to the things we already do well?

irishbucsfan

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I'd agree completely that the defense the root of our lose, but looking at the Pumas effectiveness with ball in hand, when have you seen Ireland play that well? Are our players less capable than theirs, that we can't look to pursue a similar style of play, allied to the things we already do well?

Do you think our players are less capable than theirs?

I think they're better than us out wide yes, I think Imhoff is better than anyone available to us. I don't think we're ever going to play like they did today, but that doesn't mean we aren't as good as them, it doesn't mean we can't be better than them.

AbusesToilets

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So why would anyone else pursue such a game plan then?

Why would the South Africans do it in 2007? Why were the Kiwis so conservative in 2011? There's more than one way to skin a cat, so long as you're capable of doing it more than one way.

Well, for one, they had better players than we did/ do. They could execute that game plan more effectively. They still had superior skills in terms of handling and playmaking than we do. NZ retreated into their shell badly in 2011 and if Joubert wasn't such a terrible ref it would have cost them the tournament. Hardly something to trumpet. The 2007 final probably featured 2 of the worst finalists in the history of the tournament.

subfreq

Bazzo wrote: »

According to my mates living in NZ it rains plenty there, the summers are just a lot better than ours(by ours I mean Ireland, I'm sure the French summers are fairly cracking too :P).

They didn't build the new stadium in Otago as permanently indoors because of the great weather that's for sure.

I played my high school rugby down in Dunedin and it was either freezing, blowing a gale or pissing rain. Occasionally we would get a good day and have all three at once.

flangemeistro

mfceiling wrote: »

I think it was your abysmal post he was finding the humour in...

Ya sure mate, so let us all just put this most recent embarrassment to the back of our minds, blame the loss of key players and carry on with this pedestrian non attacking game plan while uttering in Joe we trust like brainwashed lemmings in the hope that we'll get lucky in 4 out of 5 of our six nations games while also relying on other teams to do us a favour on the last day so we can cement Joe in this faux God like status.
With his bull**** gamesmanship of being the last to name his team while also blatantly lying by naming Payne and Sexton while knowing full well they wouldn't be playing in the hope they he'd screw up the opposing teams planning.
Amateur, childish, unprofessional and uneffective.

irishbucsfan

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Well, for one, they had better players than we did/ do. They could execute that game plan more effectively. They still had superior skills in terms of handling and playmaking than we do. NZ retreated into their shell badly in 2011 and if Joubert wasn't such a terrible ref it would have cost them the tournament. Hardly something to trumpet. The 2007 final probably featured 2 of the worst finalists in the history of the tournament.

You're focusing on the two finals but those teams were dominant elsewhere. New Zealand beat Australia convincingly in the semi final playing that way. South Africa were dominant.

It's just not the case that attractive or exciting rugby equates to good or effective rugby. We've seen that in every single competition in the world, including the Tri Nations and the Super rugby competitions. If you have strength out wide then go for it, if you don't then win your own way and carve your own path.

AbusesToilets

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You're focusing on the two finals but those teams were dominant elsewhere. New Zealand beat Australia convincingly in the semi final playing that way. South Africa were dominant.

It's just not the case that attractive or exciting rugby equates to good or effective rugby. We've seen that in every single competition in the world, including the Tri Nations and the Super rugby competitions. If you have strength out wide then go for it, if you don't then win your own way and carve your own path.

There's truth in that certainly. I think we do have players who can play a more expansive game. I accept Joe has less time with the team than he did at Leinster, but it's 2 seasons into his tenure and we haven't really kicked on from the kick first style of play. I don't think it's good enough to allow us to challenge for a WC.

marco_polo

AbusesToilets wrote: »

There's truth in that certainly. I think we do have players who can play a more expansive game. I accept Joe has less time with the team than he did at Leinster, but it's 2 seasons into his tenure and we haven't really kicked on from the kick first style of play. I don't think it's good enough to allow us to challenge for a WC.

He pretty much said there was only so much you can do in a two year cycle, to a certain extent all of our eggs were in the Sexton/Payne basket at 10/13. In hindsight the timing of BODs retirement was the worst possible

We have some good players from 11-15 but if you were to rank then in world terms relative to our first choice 1-10 they would be alot lower, so he developed a strategy that played to our strengths and to have most of the key injuries in the pack and at 10 was a big blow. I would hope he will stick around untill 2019 anyway, because with a full 4 year cycle I think he could really put his stamp on things and build a much stronger rounded squad (And he will also have learnt from a few mistakes the management team have made as well around selection etc)

thebaz

interesting that the Argentina coach , background is in sevens , a code we have ignored - the next big global rugby tournament will the Olympics , we won't be there.
Not questioning Joe, always wanted him appointed, as his brand of winning rugby at Leinster, was always played the modern, the right way , but we had 2 brilliant midfielders, for Ireland when Payne got injured there was literally no one available to step up - seriously need to find 2 more centres.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

thebaz wrote: »

interesting that the Argentina coach , background is in sevens , a code we have ignored - the next big global ruby tournament will the Olympics , we won't be there.
Not questioning Joe, always wanted him appointed, as his brand of winning rugby at Leinster, was always played the modern, the right way , but we had 2 brilliant midfielders, for Ireland when Payne got injured there was literally no one available to step up - seriously need to find 2 more centres.

We're still in with a shot of qualifying for Rio, are we not?

I agree 7s is important though. Even Canada showed some excellent stuff in attack which stems from 7s. Australia and NZ have players playing both as do some of the Pacific Island teams.

marco_polo

thebaz wrote: »

interesting that the Argentina coach , background is in sevens , a code we have ignored - the next big global rugby tournament will the Olympics , we won't be there.
Not questioning Joe, always wanted him appointed, as his brand of winning rugby at Leinster, was always played the modern, the right way , but we had 2 brilliant midfielders, for Ireland when Payne got injured there was literally no one available to step up - seriously need to find 2 more centres.

We need to find alot of players over the next four years given the age profile of the squad and inevitable attricion but center, SH, OH and TH being the most critical

CIARAN_BOYLE

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

We're still in with a shot of qualifying for Rio, are we not?

I agree 7s is important though. Even Canada showed some excellent stuff in attack which stems from 7s. Australia and NZ have players playing both as do some of the Pacific Island teams.

1 team can qualify from the final qualification event.

We would not be expected to qualify.

thebaz wrote: »

interesting that the Argentina coach , background is in sevens , a code we have ignored - the next big global rugby tournament will the Olympics , we won't be there.
Not questioning Joe, always wanted him appointed, as his brand of winning rugby at Leinster, was always played the modern, the right way , but we had 2 brilliant midfielders, for Ireland when Payne got injured there was literally no one available to step up - seriously need to find 2 more centres.

We had two good centres who are light on international experience.

Pudsy33

marco_polo wrote: »

We need to find alot of players over the next four years given the age profile of the squad and inevitable attricion but center, SH, OH and TH being the most critical

There are good young players in all of those positions I think. It may not work out of course but I wouldn't be too fearful. For me scrum half is the biggest worry, Reddan can't have long left and the drop off after him and Murray is frightening. Hope Marmion kicks in.

thebaz

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

1 team can qualify from the final qualification event.

We would not be expected to qualify.


We had two good centres who are light on international experience.

after 3 games in a row , second WC , Earls is not an international quality centre.

duckysauce

thebaz wrote: »

after 3 games in a row , second WC , Earls is not an international quality centre.

he is a winger , not his fault Joe stuck him there

marco_polo

Pudsy33 wrote: »

There are good young players in all of those positions I think. It may not work out of course but I wouldn't be too fearful. For me scrum half is the biggest worry, Reddan can't have long left and the drop off after him and Murray is frightening. Hope Marmion kicks in.

Oh I know we have some really good young guys coming through, as you say not all of them will come to fruition, but we need to make sure they are given every opportunity to develop over the next few years.

thebaz

duckysauce wrote: »

he is a winger , not his fault Joe stuck him there

someone said we had 2 quality centres playing - and I said Earls is not one -
he is a winger , like you say ,

CIARAN_BOYLE

thebaz wrote: »

someone said we had 2 quality centres playing - and I said Earls is not one -
he is a winger , like you say ,

you said we had two brilliant centers we needed two more as when payne got injured there was noone

I said we have two good centers with little international experience (meaning its not really Joes fault that we only had two centers as there was no time to develop either a third or a fourth)

Shero1985

Any word on November 2016 fixtures????

mfceiling

flangemeistro wrote: »

Ya sure mate, so let us all just put this most recent embarrassment to the back of our minds, blame the loss of key players and carry on with this pedestrian non attacking game plan while uttering in Joe we trust like brainwashed lemmings in the hope that we'll get lucky in 4 out of 5 of our six nations games while also relying on other teams to do us a favour on the last day so we can cement Joe in this faux God like status.
With his bull**** gamesmanship of being the last to name his team while also blatantly lying by naming Payne and Sexton while knowing full well they wouldn't be playing in the hope they he'd screw up the opposing teams planning.
Amateur, childish, unprofessional and uneffective.

Go on then...you seem to be an expert. Where do we go from here? Joe is obviously not a good coach...those 2 X 6N championships, 2 X HC wins and the Amlin don't count of course.
Who do we bring in to coach us (no running to Google to look for names...your own choice there).
I've read some dung on here from yesterday. Posters who arrive en masse when ireland get beaten yet never are seen when a provincial team are playing in Wales on a wet November Friday.
Simple fact is we were beaten by a better team yesterday. The fact that we were missing arguably 5 of our best players was always going to tip the balance in Argentina's favour.
Sure let's not give Argentina credit...let's shít over ireland like we always do when there's a defeat.

total former

mfceiling wrote: »

Go on then...you seem to be an expert. Where do we go from here? Joe is obviously not a good coach...those 2 X 6N championships, 2 X HC wins and the Amlin don't count of course.

I say this as one of the biggest fans of Joe around and as someone who was there for most of the above triumphs...

But what if Joe won all those titles with Leinster because we simply had a phenomenonal group of players, assembled over many years by Leinster, IRFU and Joe's predecessors?

Two 6N titles in two years is a great achievement, but is it now somewhat qualified by the collapse of the NH teams in the world cup?

He's a great coach, of course he is, and I hope he stays to rebuild and regroup, but Joe has to face questions about our exit, again, at quarter final stage when things seemed to be set up perfectly for us.

phog

thebaz wrote: »

after 3 games in a row , second WC , Earls is not an international quality centre.

#Joeout

.ak

total former wrote: »

I say this as one of the biggest fans of Joe around and as someone who was there for most of the above triumphs...

But what if Joe won all those titles with Leinster because we simply had a phenomenonal group of players, assembled over many years by Leinster, IRFU and Joe's predecessors?

Two 6N titles in two years is a great achievement, but is it now somewhat qualified by the collapse of the NH teams in the world cup?

He's a great coach, of course he is, and I hope he stays to rebuild and regroup, but Joe has to face questions about our exit, again, at quarter final stage when things seemed to be set up perfectly for us.

I imagine those questions will be short and answered easily. The IRFU probably had a semi as an objective for him, but they'll be very appreciative of the situation we were in going into that quarter.

You might say we should have better backup to those injuries/missing players but for me he couldn't do anymore. The amount of players that Joe has blooded in his short term so far is staggering.

The problem is there just is no replacements on the island for Sexton, POC, SOB, POM, or Payne even. We brought our best 31 to the World Cup and that's that.

total former

.ak wrote: »

I imagine those questions will be short and answered easily. The IRFU probably had a semi as an objective for him, but they'll be very appreciative of the situation we were in going into that quarter.

You might say we should have better backup to those injuries/missing players but for me he couldn't do anymore. The amount of players that Joe has blooded in his short term so far is staggering.

The problem is there just is no replacements on the island for Sexton, POC, SOB, POM, or Payne even. We brought our best 31 to the World Cup and that's that.

As I said last night, if we're happy to continue in this vein then a short review with no action is just the job. If we want to improve by 2019, then we need to look harder.

Has Joe blooded players? When forced to do so by injury, yes. Voluntarily, for meaningful games? Not really.


Ideally, I'd like to see a two-way review. Give Joe the chance to say what he thinks went wrong and how it can be fixed, then give him and Nucifora the tools to do it.

Edit: and this not reactionary. Some of us have been airing these concerns for a while now.

Tigerandahalf

No doubt Schmidt is a great coach. However the gameplan has been shown up to be limited. We win games by suffocating the opposition and kicking penalties. We were always vulnerable if we had to chase a game.

Why do we not have a separate backs coach?
I was reading on here after the Italy game and people were desperately hoping that Schmidt had a bag of tricks up his sleeve. He didn't. We didn't bring a single new tactic. Our maul has also been well read since the 6N.

Our backline play has been very poor for the last few years. Schmidt has to take fault for that. But there is no guarantee if we change to a more expansive game that we will then start winning qfs and semis. But change has to be made. The likes of Gilroy and Healy have to be brought on board. They are the type of creative player we lack. They can step and create out of nothing. Olding will hopefully be brought on board.

Even with that I doubt if the team will change much. Henshaw and Payne are still our best centres. It is the 2 Kearneys that could lose out plus Tommy Bowe may retire. So a full back slot is up for the taking.

The IRFU policy of delaying getting onboard the 7s circuit is also an issue. If all the academy players spent a year or two there it would add a lot to their handling skills and how you run onto a ball and into space. Too many of our players run into traffic.

flangemeistro

mfceiling wrote: »

Go on then...you seem to be an expert. Where do we go from here? Joe is obviously not a good coach...those 2 X 6N championships, 2 X HC wins and the Amlin don't count of course.
Who do we bring in to coach us (no running to Google to look for names...your own choice there).
I've read some dung on here from yesterday. Posters who arrive en masse when ireland get beaten yet never are seen when a provincial team are playing in Wales on a wet November Friday.
Simple fact is we were beaten by a better team yesterday. The fact that we were missing arguably 5 of our best players was always going to tip the balance in Argentina's favour.
Sure let's not give Argentina credit...let's shít over ireland like we always do when there's a defeat.

Look buddy I've been to plenty a provincial match on a **** day in November, but that doesn't qualify me or you to have more of an opinion than someone who hasn't.

I don't like when the Heineken cups and Amlin cups are brought up because they were used as leverage to get Joe the job and rightly so but he's in there now two years and yes we have two 6N in two years and that's nothing to be taken lightly but we were winning 6N without Joe also. Not consecutively but winning them.

One of Joes less likeable traits is his secrecy and misdirection, he does this by being the last to name his team then names injured players who he predictably pulls the day before game day or even on game day, he thinks this somehow gives him the upper hand over his opponents as they have less time to plan, well just take a look at yesterday and you'll realise that this ploy has now been found out and the only people Joe is fooling is himself and us the fans.

I also bought into the facade that we are in the best position we have been in for years and that our strength in depth is up there with the best teams in the world which is the reason why we can leave so many talented players at home,
Well this is where Joe has deceived us all the most because it became blatantly obvious yesterday that the drop off from our starting xv to their understudies is frighteningly significant.

And this is not taking anything away from the Pumas they were immense and from the passion they showed during their anthem to their never give up attitude they 100% deserved the win.

We're in serious trouble and people can put on their 6N tinted glasses and dismiss this but it just shows how the gap between northern and southern hemisphere isn't closing it is rapidly widening when the best team from the 6N get humiliated by the worst team in the Rugby Championship.

vienne86

Shero1985 wrote: »

Any word on November 2016 fixtures????

Do you mean autumn internationals? We don't have them in a World Cup year. Players will go back to their provinces until the six nations.

The players deserve a rest - how long have they been in camp??? It's a tough enough life.

Sanjuro

vienne86 wrote: »

Do you mean autumn internationals? We don't have them in a World Cup year. Players will go back to their provinces until the six nations.

The players deserve a rest - how long have they been in camp??? It's a tough enough life.

November 2016

.ak

total former wrote: »

As I said last night, if we're happy to continue in this vein then a short review with no action is just the job. If we want to improve by 2019, then we need to look harder.

Has Joe blooded players? When forced to do so by injury, yes. Voluntarily, for meaningful games? Not really.


Ideally, I'd like to see a two-way review. Give Joe the chance to say what he thinks went wrong and how it can be fixed, then give him and Nucifora the tools to do it.

Edit: and this not reactionary. Some of us have been airing these concerns for a while now.

Yes, he has blooded players in a volunteering manner. Am surprised you think otherwise, but a huge amount of fringe players were shown faith under Joe and have aided us through campaigns. Guys like Moore, Murphy, Hendo, Henshaw, Dave Kearney, Zebo, McGrath, Henry have all been developed carefully under Schmidt into solid options for us rather than just parachute jobs. That's just off the top of my head but I've been very impressed with how Schmidt has involved so many players and given so much experience over very limited international windows.

OldRio

I honestly do not understand some people.

We got beat by a very good team. Get over it. Stop trying to make scapegoats. It's bloody embarrassing. We have a very good NH team. We win six nations every year.
The gap between NH and SH was always there. It is now bigger. The problem is not an Irish one. It is a NH one.
We will learn lessons from this WC but please remember we only have a handful of World Class players. Most of whom did not play yesterday.

@ i have read is just silly

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

If Schmidt's success at Leinster was down to having a fantastic group of players there why does it not translate automatically to Ireland? There can't have been that many foreign players there. Has there been a huge amount of retirements in the past 2 years?

Bridge93

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

If Schmidt's success at Leinster was down to having a fantastic group of players there why does it not translate automatically to Ireland? There can't have been that many foreign players there. Has there been a huge amount of retirements in the past 2 years?

Well that Irish team yesterday would be arguably weaker than the Leinster team he coached due to all the absentees. But they were playing a much better side than any Leinster faced

rrpc

.ak wrote: »

Yes, he has blooded players in a volunteering manner. Am surprised you think otherwise, but a huge amount of fringe players were shown faith under Joe and have aided us through campaigns. Guys like Moore, Murphy, Hendo, Henshaw, Dave Kearney, Zebo, McGrath, Henry have all been developed carefully under Schmidt into solid options for us rather than just parachute jobs. That's just off the top of my head but I've been very impressed with how Schmidt has involved so many players and given so much experience over very limited international windows.

Payne, White, Jackson, O'Donnell, Jones, Keatley, Marmion...

wicklowwonder

The RFU are sniffing around Joe as well. Seems some people here would be happy for him to leave. I believe we need to hang onto him for another 4 years, he is the best man for the job bar none.

http://www.balls.ie/rugby/the-french-press-with-big-revelations-on-englands-pursuit-of-joe-schmidt/312988?utm_campaign=twitter&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitter

molloyjh

total former wrote: »

I say this as one of the biggest fans of Joe around and as someone who was there for most of the above triumphs...

But what if Joe won all those titles with Leinster because we simply had a phenomenonal group of players, assembled over many years by Leinster, IRFU and Joe's predecessors?

Two 6N titles in two years is a great achievement, but is it now somewhat qualified by the collapse of the NH teams in the world cup?

He's a great coach, of course he is, and I hope he stays to rebuild and regroup, but Joe has to face questions about our exit, again, at quarter final stage when things seemed to be set up perfectly for us.

I don't know about that. In past RWCs you could point to things that Ireland simply got wrong. In 2011 we selected the wrong side and played the wrong game, in 2007 we got our prep all wrong etc etc.

This year I think Ireland did pretty much everything right. We got out prep spot on, we built up our performances from the warm-ups to the France game. Unfortunately in the France game it just all went tits up. You need a bit of luck to win championships. In 2010-11 and 2011-12 Leinster didn't suffer a huge number of crucial injuries in their HEC campaigns for example. Some things you can plan for and control. Other things you can't.

We lost the game yesterday at the breakdown in the first 10-12 minutes. We didn't compete, we didn't even get involved. Argentina got quick, clean ball and easy access into the game. Can anyone here honestly say that would have happened if we had 1 or 2 of POC, POM and SOB starting? Everything else flowed from there. Argentina to their credit were accurate and utterly ruthless, but it all started with the good quality ball we allowed them at the breakdown. We then had to expend huge effort to get back to within 3 which, after the France game, left us spent in the last 10.

We knew coming into this tournament that the gap between Sexton and Madigan/Jackson was significant. We also knew that nobody led this team like POC. And we also knew we could handle an injury in the back row. But missing 2 of our starting back rows and star players wasn't something we considered. We got really bloody unlucky with the injuries we picked up and it crippled us. We didn't see that of course because the lads did such a good job against France. We convinced ourselves that we had the depth to cover the guys we were missing. We didn't. Maybe had Ruddock not gotten injured in the summer (or TOD in the warm-ups) we could have managed, but Murphy simply isn't at that level. At least not yet.

At this stage I don't blame the players or the coaches. It was crap luck. There aren't many teams that can lose their inspirational captain, their 2 best back rows, a world class 10 and a damn fine centre and still make the SF of a RWC. NZ are really about the only team who could, but even they'd struggle. That isn't something that Joe or anyone else could control.

molloyjh

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

If Schmidt's success at Leinster was down to having a fantastic group of players there why does it not translate automatically to Ireland? There can't have been that many foreign players there. Has there been a huge amount of retirements in the past 2 years?

We've won 2 6 Nations and beaten every side we've faced at least once with the exception of NZ. How exactly has the success not translated? Or are you basing that statement on a single game where the "fantastic group of players" was decimated by injury?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

molloyjh wrote: »

We've won 2 6 Nations and beaten every side we've faced at least once with the exception of NZ. How exactly has the success not translated? Or are you basing that statement on a single game where the "fantastic group of players" was decimated by injury?

I probably should have quoted the post I was referring to........

I'm not saying the Leinster success was down to the players he had. Someone else suggested it was and I was just wondering if that was the case why would the style of play there not transfer straight to the Ireland team.

Obviously, WC aside, the success has followed.

wicklowwonder

molloyjh wrote: »

We've won 2 6 Nations and beaten every side we've faced at least once with the exception of NZ. How exactly has the success not translated? Or are you basing that statement on a single game where the "fantastic group of players" was decimated by injury?

Exactly when was the last time we won back to back 6 nations? Even with the poor form of NH teams? I have only seen three championship wins in my life, I was born in 86. That is almost 30 years. Two of them delivered by the current coach in his first two years. Be crazy even contemplating getting rid of him.

awec

OldRio wrote: »

I honestly do not understand some people.

We got beat by a very good team. Get over it. Stop trying to make scapegoats. It's bloody embarrassing. We have a very good NH team. We win six nations every year.
The gap between NH and SH was always there. It is now bigger. The problem is not an Irish one. It is a NH one.
We will learn lessons from this WC but please remember we only have a handful of World Class players. Most of whom did not play yesterday.

@ i have read is just silly

What part are you struggling to understand?

We got thumped and people are quite rightly asking questions. That surprises you?

It's as if some people think the entire setup is beyond question or something, like it's infallible. It's not.

phog

.ak wrote: »

I imagine those questions will be short and answered easily. The IRFU probably had a semi as an objective for him, but they'll be very appreciative of the situation we were in going into that quarter.

You might say we should have better backup to those injuries/missing players but for me he couldn't do anymore. The amount of players that Joe has blooded in his short term so far is staggering.

The problem is there just is no replacements on the island for Sexton, POC, SOB, POM, or Payne even. We brought our best 31 to the World Cup and that's that.

I hope the IRFU's review take a bit longer than yours. It's probably a bit simplistic to lay the blame of our exit solely on the injuries. I'd like to think that there are lessons to be learned from our World Cup campaign.

I'm not even sure we brought the best 31, Trimble and possibly Gilroy could have been brought, was Healy the best choice to travel/start?

On yesterday's game - did our game plan yesterday suit the opposition rather than suit us? Should Zebo have started or have been on the subs bench? Should McGrath have started ahead of Healy? Why wasn't Jackson given a run? Should Ryan have started at lock with Henderson at 6?

wicklowwonder

awec wrote: »

What part are you struggling to understand?

We got thumped and people are quite rightly asking questions. That surprises you?

It's as if some people think the entire setup is beyond question or something, like it's infallible. It's not.

It's not infallible and lessons should be learned, however despite what people think we have never historically won trophies at international level in rugby. Schmidt has won two championships in his first two years. That's enough credit in the bank for me!

End of day 2 years ago you offered World Cup semi final or back to back champions in 6n I would have taken back to back champions, it's not like we win it very often.

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

We've won 2 6 Nations and beaten every side we've faced at least once with the exception of NZ. How exactly has the success not translated? Or are you basing that statement on a single game where the "fantastic group of players" was decimated by injury?

This injury thing is being over used.

The team we had out was more than good enough to win. Sexton was withdrawn with a minor strain because they didn't want to risk him. Does that sound like the action of a coach who thinks he might be sending a team out for their last WC game?

At the end of the day it was a game we really should have targeted to win and we not only lost, but we got absolutely battered. If questions shouldn't be asked after that (and I am NOT questioning Schmidt's position) then when do they get asked?

We won two six nations. Clearly that is not worth a damn when it gets to the business end of the world cup. Our first meeting with decent SH opposition this tournament and we are sent packing with ease. That is not good enough.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

This injury thing is being over used.

So what did the coaching team do wrong then?

If missing 5 of our best players was not such a big deal, the coaching staff must have made some pretty egregious errors that you can point out for us?

I agree with your above point that asking questions is completely acceptable. But if the answer to those questions is that we were missing our best players in absolutely key positions then you have to accept that as well. It's not a witch hunt.

awec

wicklowwonder wrote: »

It's not infallible and lessons should be learned, however despite what people think we have never historically won trophies at international level in rugby. Schmidt has won two championships in his first two years. That's enough credit in the bank for me!

End of day 2 years ago you offered World Cup semi final or back to back champions in 6n I would have taken back to back champions, it's not like we win it very often.

People aren't questioning Schmidt's position (at least the sensible people asking questions aren't). Nobody wants to see him go anywhere, but I would guess more than a few want to see some changes be that in tactics or in playing personnel.

Just because he won two six nations doesn't mean the coaches and players are exempt from any sort of criticism for yesterdays display. What sort of attitude is that really?

OldRio

awec wrote: »

What part are you struggling to understand?

We got thumped and people are quite rightly asking questions. That surprises you?

It's as if some people think the entire setup is beyond question or something, like it's infallible. It's not.

I'm struggling to understand why some people want to make a scapegoat out of that defeat. I'm surprised that people, even some rugby folk do not understand the importance of POC and SOB and Sexton.

They will be a review after the WC and like I have already said 'lessons will be learnt'

molloyjh

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

I probably should have quoted the post I was referring to........

I'm not saying the Leinster success was down to the players he had. Someone else suggested it was and I was just wondering if that was the case why would the style of play there not transfer straight to the Ireland team.

Obviously, WC aside, the success has followed.

The international game simply isn't the same thing. Leinster didn't play that hugely open game against top teams generally either. When we played Clermont it wasn't the same as Cardiff for example.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So what did the coaching team do wrong then?

If missing 5 of our best players was not such a big deal, the coaching staff must have made some pretty egregious errors that you can point out for us?

I agree with your above point that asking questions is completely acceptable. But if the answer to those questions is that we were missing our best players in absolutely key positions then you have to accept that as well. It's not a witch hunt.

Do you think yesterday's performance and ultimate hammering was ok because we were missing 5 players?

Honestly?

The team we had out was more than good enough to win.

awec

Also, see this "you can't throw the ball around in international rugby" talk?

We have four semi finalists who are happy to throw the ball around. I think we can toss that argument out the window.

efb

I do not think the 15 were more than capable of beating Argentina. Had the stars aligned and Madigan Earls etc had exceptional performances we could have.

But on paper Argentina were the stronger team.

Form is temporary class is permanent.

Also why was Healy starting over McGrath???

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

Do you think yesterday's performance and ultimate hammering was ok because we were missing 5 players?

Honestly?

You asked the same question last night, already responded to it.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=97424001&postcount=448