Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

thomond2006

.ak wrote: »

No coach should experiment against the likes of Wales. The only question in my mind is who starts at 11. Right now it's between earls and DK, with Fitzgerald an outside chance but Fitz is looking like a prime candidate for the 23 jersey because of how much he's been moved around.

Italy this year is a great opportunity to give the likes of Stander and McCloskey a start.

So with that in mind, my 23 for Wales;

R.Kearney
Trimble
Payne
Henshaw
D.Kearney
Sexton
Murray
Heaslip
SOB
Ruddock
McCarthy
Toner
White
Best
McGrath

Cronin
Cronin
Furlong
Ryan
Henry
Reddan
Madigan
Fitzgerald

Unfortunately we're a bit bare in the front row. I think they'll target our set piece in a big way, we're missing some of our best players in that regards; POC, Ross and Healy (when in form).

I have faith in the starting front row but I think Cronin and furlong, whilst brilliant players, are lacking that experience we expect from our front rowers.

I haven't seen Leinster play much in the last two months, yet I'm reading that Reddan is not playing well.
This comes back to the ROG argument in 2013: experience is worthless if you're over the hill and in poor form. So why play Reddan over someone like Marmion who is a good prospect? Reddan is 35. He's done. Same as ROG was.

Stander and McCloskey are far better players than the 'only safe to start against Italy' category. "No coach should experiment against the likes of Wales". Sorry but this attitude is maddening. Picking the best players is not experimenting. Throwing in a player like Rory Scannell or Cian Kelleher at their stage of their careers is experimenting, I don't see how capping players like McCloskey and Stander who have played multiple seasons at club level is considered a risk. In Stander's case, he turns 26 in April. He's in his prime.

former total

swiwi_ wrote: »

Ah FT, don't ever stop! There is no way I'm going to get involved in an unwinnable debate over our subjective views as to who are the best 7 to wear 9 to 15 for Ireland. Just need IBF to ask me the same Q and I'd have the quinella!

My understanding is you favour (and feel Schmidt will largely favour) from 9 to 15 Murray, Sexton, DK, Henshaw, Payne, ?Trimble (I can't recall your views on 14) and RK.

And I would beg to differ there are better combinations on offer.

And that's where I'll leave it.

Maybe someone else will take up your offer...

Ah, take the bait would ya?

Seriously my point is that the injustices in team selection are mainly a boards invention.

I think the mundane reality is that we have very few genuine world class players and then a whole heap of good ones. I think the reality in 99% of cases, player A is roughly about as good as player B and the final call goes to the guy that Joe thinks will fit the game plan better or is doing better in training.

What happens though is that boards convinces itself it has all the information based on the games it sees and then collapses in apoplexy when the call goes the other way. Then you get people trotting out selective arguments of Leinster bias, conservatism or whatever based on whoever they're bigging up.

As to who I favour personally; I don't mind. Any of four wingers, they're all of roughly the same level. I'd pick either Henshaw or McCloskey at 12 but not both at 12 and 13. RK at full back. Jackson or Madigan: don't mind, again both of a similar level. Reddan ahead of Marmion
I'd play Stander at 6. The rest picks itself.

RoundBox11

I'm hearing JS is eyeing up a Henshaw - Fitz midfield pairing to ease Robbies transition to Leinster next season.
It'll help having 7/8 of the pack from leinster too...

Teferi

phog wrote: »

Form hasn't been used by Joe in selecting any of his teams so far so I can't see him starting now.

Dave Kearney played his way into the team. Trimble has finally been recognised for the talent he is. Stander has been called up at the first opportunity.

Those are just three off the top of my head so I'm not sure this is true.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Harley Uptight Light wrote: »

Totally agree with you, McCloskey has been excellent this season and he should be in the team. This forum should run for the Republican US Presidential nomination, it's more conservative than all the candidates combined.

There is a difference between wanting a certain line up and expecting a certain line up.

Based on all we've seen from Schmidt in his time with Ireland there is little to suggest we'll be seeing any major changes that aren't forced on him. Just because a lot of posters can see and accept this doesn't mean that we don't want to see changes.

It's not being conservative. It's accepting reality while still daring to dream.

connemara man

brianp20 wrote: »

Henshaw played all last season for Connacht at inside centre with Aki outside him. Yesterday he played outside with Aki inside, even though Aki has played most of his rugby this season with 13 on his back with Ronaldson at 12. Strange to see them change positions, did Schmidt have anything to do with it or am I reading too much into it?

Henshaw only played 12 once last year and that was because Aki was injured so he pushed in and Poolman went to 13.

The preferred partnership is Aki 12 Henshaw 13 but with the world cup and injuries it hasn't happened as much. I think that was Henshaws 3rd game this season Pat didn't want to disrupt the starting partnership as they were playing well and he knew he wouldn't have Henshaw for larger portions of the season

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Teferi wrote: »

Dave Kearney played his way into the team. Trimble has finally been recognised for the talent he is. Stander has been called up at the first opportunity.

Those are just three off the top of my head so I'm not sure this is true.

Personally I think it would be ridiculous to base selections purely on any one thing. Form at Provincial level should get a player on the radar, into the wider training camps, or 30-whatever man squad. It alone shouldn't get them into a starting 15.

Form + International Experience, maybe.
Form + Other options just having a mare all season, maybe.
Form + Injury crisis, maybe.

former total

Teferi wrote: »

Dave Kearney played his way into the team. Trimble has finally been recognised for the talent he is. Stander has been called up at the first opportunity.

Those are just three off the top of my head so I'm not sure this is true.

And Jordi Murphy went from starting a world cup quarter final to not making a 35 man squad in the space of four months due to poor form.

It's an utter myth.

Teferi

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Personally I think it would be ridiculous to base selections purely on any one thing. Form at Provincial level should get a player on the radar, into the wider training camps, or 30-whatever man squad. It alone shouldn't get them into a starting 15.

Form + International Experience, maybe.
Form + Other options just having a mare all season, maybe.
Form + Injury crisis, maybe.

Agreed. You also have to think about who is the best player for the gameplan.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

connemara man wrote: »

Henshaw only played 12 once last year and that was because Aki was injured so he pushed in and Poolman went to 13.

The preferred partnership is Aki 12 Henshaw 13 but with the world cup and injuries it hasn't happened as much. I think that was Henshaws 3rd game this season Pat didn't want to disrupt the starting partnership as they were playing well and he knew he wouldn't have Henshaw for larger portions of the season

He played at 15, I think, in one of the other 2 games he played in before Christmas. Don't think you can read anything Ireland related into where he's played at Connacht this season.

connemara man

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

He played at 15, I think, in one of the other 2 games he played in before Christmas. Don't think you can read anything Ireland related into where he's played at Connacht this season.

Yeah I know twice at 15 this year. I was just correcting the he played at 12 all last year thing. This season where he has started has been based on just getting him on the pitch while not disrupting the other players there who were in Pats mind playing to well to drop or move

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

connemara man wrote: »

Yeah I know twice at 15 this year. I was just correcting the he played at 12 all last year thing. This season where he has started has been based on just getting him on the pitch while not disrupting the other players there who were in Pats mind playing to well to drop or move

Sorry, should have quoted the other post too, the one wondering if Schmidt had any involvement in where Henshaw played yesterday.

Zzippy

brianp20 wrote: »

Henshaw played all last season for Connacht at inside centre with Aki outside him. Yesterday he played outside with Aki inside, even though Aki has played most of his rugby this season with 13 on his back with Ronaldson at 12. Strange to see them change positions, did Schmidt have anything to do with it or am I reading too much into it?

That never happened. Not once. If you're going to make stuff up at least do it with things that aren't easily verified.

jacothelad

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

The difficulty of moving Payne to full back is that it may actually weaken the team.

Yes, he may be a better full back than Kearney; though that's not proven at international level, but then we have to bring in another centre (McCloskey seems the favourite) which would then mean Henshaw moving to 13. So what you end up with is three players playing in different positions to what they're used to for Ireland with the addition of an uncapped inexperienced 12 playing outside Sexton for the first time.

So the queston is, does moving Payne to full back strengthen or weaken the team? I would suggest it weakens it.

Well, an inexperienced and uncapped 13 and 15, Henshaw played outside Sexton for the first time at 12. I'd say on the evidence of the last 2 seasons that McCloskey is a better 12 than Henshaw who doesn't play there for Connacht. If Payne is a better 15 than Kearney - and I consider him to be more skilled in many ways, then including a more skilled player over another very good player is unlikely to weaken the team. Then if McCloskey was selected at 12, a position that he is in fact used to playing, we could play Robbie Henshaw at 13. Now he rarely plays there but the world and it's civil partner tells us that he is a feckin' demon at 13 then surely that is where he should play. We would have a 12 at 12, a 13 at 13 and a 15 at 15 who would bring a different type of attacking game, great kicking as well as very sound defence.

One thing is certain, selecting a player out of position over a specialist in that position is usually less than successful. They might 'get by' as they are top class players in their own right but getting by isn't enough. I wonder are the punters who called for the estimable Ruddock to play in the 2nd row still of the opinion that he should play there for Ireland? Earls to 13 v. Wales anyone? Does Tony Ward still want Madigan could play 9 for Ireland? Or 12? Or 15? He might not be a Bergamasco and I think Madigan would have been a great 9 in the French mould of a 9/10 but it's too late.

jm08

Teferi wrote: »

Dave Kearney played his way into the team. Trimble has finally been recognised for the talent he is. Stander has been called up at the first opportunity.

Those are just three off the top of my head so I'm not sure this is true.

Dave (& Rob) Kearney doesn't have the pace to be an international winger. We can't have the two of them on the pitch at the same time.

CMOTDibbler

jacothelad wrote: »

Well, an inexperienced and uncapped 13 and 15, Henshaw played outside Sexton for the first time at 12. I'd say on the evidence of the last 2 seasons that McCloskey is a better 12 than Henshaw who doesn't play there for Connacht. If Payne is a better 15 than Kearney - and I consider him to be more skilled in many ways, then including a more skilled player over another very good player is unlikely to weaken the team. Then if McCloskey was selected at 12, a position that he is in fact used to playing, we could play Robbie Henshaw at 13. Now he rarely plays there but the world and it's civil partner tells us that he is a feckin' demon at 13 then surely that is where he should play. We would have a 12 at 12, a 13 at 13 and a 15 at 15 who would bring a different type of attacking game, great kicking as well as very sound defence.

Indeed. But there weren't wholesale changes in the rest of the backline. We saw against Argentina what happens when virtually your entire midfield is changed at the same time.

Clegg

If Moore is out for the Wales game then we're down to White and Furlong. In scrummaging terms I don't think there's much between them, but White has far more experience. I'd prefer Furong though as he offers a greater impact around the pitch. We're looking at probably half of Leinster's pack, if not more, starting for Ireland. Now some of them are coming off a shameful performance in Europe, but in general they're in good form. It's a concern that one province is being relied upon so heavily though.

jm08

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Indeed. But there weren't wholesale changes in the rest of the backline. We saw against Argentina what happens when virtually your entire midfield is changed at the same time.

There were no changes in the midfield v. Argentina. Luke Fitz came on for Tommy Bowe.

Earls & Henshaw started v. Italy, France & Argentina.

wp_rathead

Zzippy wrote: »

That never happened. Not once. If you're going to make stuff up at least do it with things that aren't easily verified.

Yup he never played inside Bundee Aki as the poster claimed
That said he played 12 once for Connacht last season - away to Exeter
But that that was with Poolman at 13 and due to an injury to Ronaldson in the warm up

The Rape of Lucretia

Heck, if I had my way, we would never play an uncapped player for Ireland. You just cant throw a player into international rugby if he hasnt played internationally before.
Sure, call me conservative, but thats how I see it.

Yeah_Right

I get the impression that some posters here think a new midfield and a new FB will suddenly turn Ireland into the all running, all singing, all dancing, all counter-attacking kings of the rugby world. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Ireland playing exciting, fast paced, attack from everywhere rugby. As long as it was also winning rugby.

I don't think Ireland has the players with the ability, speed or stamina to play that game and beat England and France away or even Wales in Dublin. A new midfield and FB won't change that. You need the forwards and halves that can play that style and I don't think Ireland has them.

The number 1 priority is winning. Everything else is second. The coach has to look at the best way to beat the opposition with the players they have and unfortunately that will sometimes be with a boring conservative game plan.

CMOTDibbler

jm08 wrote: »

Dave (& Rob) Kearney doesn't have the pace to be an international winger. We can't have the two of them on the pitch at the same time.

Well we have done. If I'm not mistaken every one of Dave's caps came with Rob on the pitch.

.ak

awec wrote: »

Is it really "experimenting" to play the guy who has been the best 12 in Ireland all season at 12, and move the guy who is actually a 13 to 13?

It's mad.

We can't make against Wales. Then we won't be able to make changes against France away. Then you can't make changes away to England. Scotland at home, sure we might be playing for something by then so we can't be making any changes. And against Italy we can't make changes either incase something goes wrong.

We have to get over our fear of changing a side.

IMO, Ireland's best back line is Murray, Sexton, Earls, McCloskey, Henshaw, Trimble, Payne. This is a back line capable of beating anyone in the 6 nations, a fact that seems often forgotten. To read here sometimes you would think Ireland couldn't possibly win a game without Payne at 13 or RK at 15.

Yes, it would be experimenting to play a guy who has no international experience against the Wales. It absolutely would be. We didn't have the opportunity to test mccloskey in November because there was no test series when we would usually get to experiment.

Now more than ever we need to win the 6n. Throwing mccloskey into a game against Wales and moving Henshaw to 13 where he only had a handful minutes in an international Jersey would be a massive gamble, one we can't afford.

Listen, I want to see mccloskey/Henshaw partnership too. I think it's the future. But this isn't the game you try it out.

irishbucsfan

Ireland could win a game without Payne at 13 or without Kearney at 15. It's just less likely than if they were playing there, because both are the best available in their position by a distance (a long distance in the case of Kearney, Henshaw is a very good 13 at least).

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ireland could win a game without Payne at 13 or without Kearney at 15. It's just less likely than if they were playing there, because both are the best available in their position by a distance (a long distance in the case of Kearney, Henshaw is a very good 13 at least).

Do you think Henshaw is the best available at 12?

1eg0a3xv7b82of

r kearney, heaslip are playing poorly.
they are lucky torie joe is in charge.

1eg0a3xv7b82of

r kearney, heaslip are playing poorly.
they are lucky torie joe is in charge.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ireland could win a game without Payne at 13 or without Kearney at 15. It's just less likely than if they were playing there, because both are the best available in their position by a distance (a long distance in the case of Kearney, Henshaw is a very good 13 at least).

Kearney is not the best in his position by a long distance. That is just absolute nonsense.

How do we know it's less likely anyway? We haven't tried it.

Just because we have won things in the past with a specific selection doesn't mean it's the best selection now. Need to be looking forwards, not backwards.

.ak

thomond2006 wrote: »

I haven't seen Leinster play much in the last two months, yet I'm reading that Reddan is not playing well.
This comes back to the ROG argument in 2013: experience is worthless if you're over the hill and in poor form. So why play Reddan over someone like Marmion who is a good prospect? Reddan is 35. He's done. Same as ROG was.

Stander and McCloskey are far better players than the 'only safe to start against Italy' category. "No coach should experiment against the likes of Wales". Sorry but this attitude is maddening. Picking the best players is not experimenting. Throwing in a player like Rory Scannell or Cian Kelleher at their stage of their careers is experimenting, I don't see how capping players like McCloskey and Stander who have played multiple seasons at club level is considered a risk. In Stander's case, he turns 26 in April. He's in his prime.

It may be maddening but that's international rugby for you. There's a massive step up from club rugby to test rugby. Not just the physicality and skill (which I have no doubt McCloskey and stander are good enough for) but the mentality involved. So much is on the line, careers are on the line. Form can suddenly fall off the radar when a player pulls on an international Jersey.

Players need to be eased into the jersey. A home game where we're favourites is ideal. Wales can turn us over in dublin but I doubt Italy can.

I'm surprised at the lack of patience from some people on this tbh. It isn't fantasy rugby, it is incredibly important we win every game this season.

Perhaps you think that's a conservative attitude, but at the end of the day rugby is won by smarts, how's extension, his lion's tour, and very career hangs on this season.

He's already rewarded form by bringing them in, maybe they'll impress even more in training, but at the end of the day it's not fair dropping anyone into a game like this. I also think having an experienced foil like Payne outside Henshaw is crucial. Payne's head is just so good. He reminds me of isa in terms of his decision making under pressure. It's very rare someone transfers that so easily into an international Jersey so I can see why he's so important to schmidt's backline.

awec

Can you name any other tier 1 nation who are as risk adverse as Ireland when it comes to selecting new players?

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

Kearney is not the best in his position by a long distance. That is just absolute nonsense.

How do we know it's less likely anyway? We haven't tried it.

Just because we have won things in the past with a specific selection doesn't mean it's the best selection now. Need to be looking forwards, not backwards.

Kearney is the best played in his position by a long distance in Ireland anyway.

He's far and away the best option. Noone dominates the back field like him, noone is so consistent in winning territory and getting the optimal return from possession. And he also even offers an option as a strike runner from time to time.

As a pure full back he's one of the very best in the world, let alone Ireland.


Winning without our best players is less likely than winning with them.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

Can you name any other tier 1 nation who are as risk adverse as Ireland when it comes to selecting new players?

Which other tier 1 nation differ in their approach to selection? Can you give examples?

awec

awec wrote: »

Can you name any other tier 1 nation who are as risk adverse as Ireland when it comes to selecting new players?

It's worth pointing out the incumbent 12 is actually younger than McCloskey and broke into the Ireland team 12 months ago, that's hardly risk averse. I hope we see McCloskey and Henshaw in the centre at some point anyway.

irishbucsfan

Harley Uptight Light wrote: »

Do you think Henshaw is the best available at 12?

I think McCloskey might be a better 12 than Henshaw, I'd like to see them take a look at McCloskey but not until we have a better idea of exactly what it's going to take to put us into the top 4 by the end of the year.

If we win against South Africa I reckon we'll see changes in one of those tests, but I'm not sure yet.

The Lost Sheep

.ak wrote: »

It may be maddening but that's international rugby for you. There's a massive step up from club rugby to test rugby. Not just the physicality and skill (which I have no doubt McCloskey and stander are good enough for) but the mentality involved. So much is on the line, careers are on the line. Form can suddenly fall off the radar when a player pulls on an international Jersey.

Players need to be eased into the jersey. A home game where we're favourites is ideal. Wales can turn us over in dublin but I doubt Italy can.

I'm surprised at the lack of patience from some people on this tbh. It isn't fantasy rugby, it is incredibly important we win every game this season.

Perhaps you think that's a conservative attitude, but at the end of the day rugby is won by smarts, how's extension, his lion's tour, and very career hangs on this season.

He's already rewarded form by bringing them in, maybe they'll impress even more in training, but at the end of the day it's not fair dropping anyone into a game like this. I also think having an experienced foil like Payne outside Henshaw is crucial. Payne's head is just so good. He reminds me of isa in terms of his decision making under pressure. It's very rare someone transfers that so easily into an international Jersey so I can see why he's so important to schmidt's backline.

I don't think that is "international rugby for you." Its irish rugby. We are ultra conservative in some sectors and this is one and this needs to change.
You say its incredibly important we win every game this season? Yes its important we get a good seeding of course but we need to get beyond a short term viewpoint. We need to get more players up to international level and playing Reddan(using him as an example) isn't what we need. He is 35 and shouldn't be involved any more. We have to look at Marmion etc

Players don't have to be eased in. If good enough play them. The easing them in idea is so conservative and we need to get beyond that

jm08

Harley Uptight Light wrote: »

It's worth pointing out the incumbent 12 is actually younger than McCloskey and broke into the Ireland team 12 months ago, that's hardly risk averse. I hope we see McCloskey and Henshaw in the centre at some point anyway.

I think the issue maybe that its fine to put one inexperienced player in with an experienced player (Henshaw started with either Darcy or Payne, both very experienced players).

Henshaw isn't that experienced yet and a compromise could be with starting McCloskey with Payne (who he is used to playing with) and maybe Jackson.

Lets not forget either that Joe Schmidt had Henshaw in the 6Ns squad in his first season without playing him. Similarly with Earls, Luke Fitz & Zebo, they all had to serve their time observing before they got a start.

Buer

We are super conservative. There's no doubt about it. At this point, I think things need to be shaken up and I think Schmidt might do that during this tournament. I wouldn't be too despondent if he didn't against Wales but I can see McCloskey starting this tournament against Italy at the latest. If others fail to perform before then, I reckon he'll be introduced before then.

Regarding full back, RK is without question the best pure full back but he's not playing very well. We have other options there and they should be looked at sooner rather than later.

I also think people will need to realise if Payne does get a run at 15, he's not going to be as scintillating there as he is for Ulster. He'll run the ball back better and pick better lines but he won't be the creative spark we saw yesterday. His move for Scholes try yesterday was him hitting a soft shoulder, one on one and throwing a great offload. Basically classic centre play. He didn't do that for Ireland as it's not on the agenda.

Hopefully we'll see a couple of changes but I think people are expecting too much to expect those changes against Wales.

Podge_irl

Marty Moore played in every 6N game in 2013-14 season with less experience in arguably a tougher position. McCloskey is not an infant in reality or rugby terms.

Of course there would be risk involved in starting him. But to suggest there is no risk involved in starting the same players who failed to beat Wales last time strikes me as somewhat asinine.

Podge_irl

Marty Moore played in every 6N game in 2013-14 season with less experience in arguably a tougher position. McCloskey is not an infant in reality or rugby terms.

Of course there would be risk involved in starting him. But to suggest there is no risk involved in starting the same players who failed to beat Wales last time strikes me as somewhat asinine.

wp_rathead

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Kearney is the best played in his position by a long distance in Ireland anyway.

He's far and away the best option. Noone dominates the back field like him, noone is so consistent in winning territory and getting the optimal return from possession. And he also even offers an option as a strike runner from time to time.

As a pure full back he's one of the very best in the world, let alone Ireland.


Winning without our best players is less likely than winning with them.

Ah now c'mon - this is a pisstake?

Few years ago I'd agree with this - but surely you see it isn't the case now.. He has been having a poor season

Players living on reputation has been a sword in the Irish set up that I was hoping Joe would eradicate

Payne is so clearly the form 15 it is painful how he isn't automatically gonna be rewarded with playing there for Ireland

sydthebeat

awec wrote: »

Can you name any other tier 1 nation who are as risk adverse as Ireland when it comes to selecting new players?

Wales name one uncapped player in their squad, we name four.

So we're four times less conservative than Wales...that's how it works isn't it ??

former total

Harley Uptight Light wrote: »

It's worth pointing out the incumbent 12 is actually younger than McCloskey and broke into the Ireland team 12 months ago, that's hardly risk averse. I hope we see McCloskey and Henshaw in the centre at some point anyway.

An incumbent who (I think) had only ever played one pro game at 12 before Joe threw him in there against South Africa.

People pick the criticisms of the coach that suit their own agenda but very little of it stands up to any scrutiny.

irishbucsfan

wp_rathead wrote: »

Ah now c'mon - this is a pisstake?

Few years ago I'd agree with this - but surely you see it isn't the case now.. He has been having a poor season

Players living on reputation has been a sword in the Irish set up that I was hoping Joe would eradicate

Payne is so clearly the form 15 it is painful how he isn't automatically gonna be rewarded with playing there for Ireland

Jared Payne has played 2 games at 15 in what, 9 months?

I've heard talk about how Rob Kearney is in poor form for Leinster so many times in the build up to 6 Nations competitions. I remember in the lead-in to either 2011 or 2012 people were saying the exact same and he was one of the best players of the entire tournament. His skillset, which is unique amongst the options available to us now, is what's most important.

Form has never carried from club rugby into the 6 Nations, it just doesn't happen. When the players make the step up and into a different side their form resets entirely. Within a couple of weeks people's pre-competition form will be shown as being totally irrelevant yet again.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Jared Payne has played 2 games at 15 in what, 9 months?

I've heard talk about how Rob Kearney is in poor form for Leinster so many times in the build up to 6 Nations competitions. I remember in the lead-in to either 2011 or 2012 people were saying the exact same and he was one of the best players of the entire tournament. His skillset, which is unique amongst the options available to us now, is what's most important.

Form has never carried from club rugby into the 6 Nations, it just doesn't happen. When the players make the step up and into a different side their form resets entirely. Within a couple of weeks people's pre-competition form will be shown as being totally irrelevant yet again.

His form was poor in the last world cup a few months ago. As well as that, he is highly unlikely to improve his pace between now and the 6Ns.

bilston

Are we missing a trick in ignoring Gareth Steenson completely? I only watched a bit of the Exeter game earlier but he seems to be in fine form.

Buer

bilston wrote: »

Are we missing a trick in ignoring Gareth Steenson completely? I only watched a bit of the Exeter game earlier but he seems to be in fine form.

Absolutely. He's the best performing Irish outhalf at the moment but is going completely under the radar.

Not a hope he'll be selected nor will he ever be capped though (turns 32 this season).

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

His form was poor in the last world cup a few months ago. As well as that, he is highly unlikely to improve his pace between now and the 6Ns.

He was barely tested in the World Cup.

He is entirely likely to improve between now and the 6 Nations when you consider that's what he's done every other year when the 6 Nations rolls around. People said the exact same thing last year (like they do every year) and he dismissed all suggestions against the French, as usual. At this stage, you just have to accept people will never learn.

molloyjh

wp_rathead wrote: »

Ah now c'mon - this is a pisstake?

Few years ago I'd agree with this - but surely you see it isn't the case now.. He has been having a poor season

Players living on reputation has been a sword in the Irish set up that I was hoping Joe would eradicate

Payne is so clearly the form 15 it is painful how he isn't automatically gonna be rewarded with playing there for Ireland

I'd love know how a guy who has played a sum total of 2 games at FB all season is the form option in that position. While I agree Rob hasn't been at his best the simple reality is that the only other option we have is only just back from injury and only just back from being converted to a centre.

People talk about Ireland being risk averse. That's only a bad thing if it leads to bad things. It hasn't so far. Young lads like Moore, Henderson, Murphy, Ruddock and Henshaw have all featured heavily below the age of 25. Guys like Furlong and Reid have gotten caps too. Others like Jackson, D Kearney, McGrath and Murray are all in their mid-20s now and have been a part of the set-up. It's not like we've been refusing to look at anyone below the age of 30.

swiwi_

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I get the impression that some posters here think a new midfield and a new FB will suddenly turn Ireland into the all running, all singing, all dancing, all counter-attacking kings of the rugby world. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Ireland playing exciting, fast paced, attack from everywhere rugby. As long as it was also winning rugby.

I don't think Ireland has the players with the ability, speed or stamina to play that game and beat England and France away or even Wales in Dublin. A new midfield and FB won't change that. You need the forwards and halves that can play that style and I don't think Ireland has them.

The number 1 priority is winning. Everything else is second. The coach has to look at the best way to beat the opposition with the players they have and unfortunately that will sometimes be with a boring conservative game plan.

Mon cher compatriot, you can hand in your passport and don't let the door of the embassy hit you on the way out.

What you would call pragmatism I would call being defeatist.

The reserves are a bit thin on the ground in terms of the tight 5 (especially with Henderson injured), but if the First XV stays injury-free, Ireland can definitely win and with style (Stander has to start though - along with McCarthy, who has suddenly found a second wind, these 2 are the form Irish forwards at present).

Zzippy

Look, the risk-averse thing has certainly produced results - we've won 2 6Ns on the trot now with trusted players and one or two players blooded in gradually. But the WC showed the vulnerability of this system. When we lose just a few of those very experienced players we don't have a second tier of players who have had enough experience to step in without a significant loss of quality/experience.

This is relevant to the example of Rob Kearney. Yes, he may be the best option at 15, and yes, he has been world class at times in his career. But we have serious options there now which we didn't before. As long as we continue to ignore those options and play RK, we risk having a big hole in our back 3 in experience terms if/when RK gets injured. I'm not saying drop RK for Wales, I'm saying we should be considering trying other options there for at least one/two games. It's not a slight on RK, it's exploring our options, broadening our squad and succession planning.