Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

There is clearly a dip in competitiveness this year, whether that has a more long term impact or not is hard to say, but we had 5 pro12 in the latter stages in 2012 and we have none now (albeit nearly had 2).

Similarly to the NH / SH divide debate in the world cup, it's not as bad as people are making out, but there is definitely a dip at the moment. Some teams look to be pulling themselves gradually out of it and we'll see where things stand in a season or two.

Competitiveness refers to the competition itself. The amount of competition between clubs within the Pro 12, which goes a long way to increasing it's value as a product for TV. Not the performance of those clubs in Europe.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Competitiveness refers to the competition itself. The amount of competition between clubs within the Pro 12, which goes a long way to increasing it's value as a product for TV. Not the performance of those clubs in Europe.

Apologies, I meant competitiveness of pro12 teams outside of the pro12.

The pro12 itself is probably the tightest it's ever been.

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

Apologies, I meant competitiveness of pro12 teams outside of the pro12.

The pro12 itself is probably the tightest it's ever been.

It's tighter because the best clubs in the league have got worse, not because the poor sides have got better. This is concerning.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

MJohnston wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I know what some of the top-level players already do to supplement their playing careers, but I'm just curious how much support IRFU could offer themselves. Might be a better carrot to some people than earning a short burst of money in England.

The Academy players all have to be doing some sort of 3rd level course. I think?
So at least going forward all the Irish talent that comes through should have something to fall back on.
Don't think it matters that much though. If given the option of moving somewhere and making enough money that you don't have to work post retirement, unless you want to, most are still going to be tempted.

CMOTDibbler

irishbucsfan wrote: »

That's nothing to do with the new organisers. Our provinces aren't as good as they were from 2006-2012. We would have had a pretty healthy chunk out of Leinster making the semi-final last year. The amount itself hasn't changed much as far as I'm aware.

I said it was nothing to do with fairness :rolleyes:. No need to start defending what wasn't attacked. I think I actually used the words 'stark reality'?

But I do have a problem finding out how much is being distributed. You can defend that all you want. Links would help.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Because the product isn't as good and it's not packaged or sold remotely as well. The people who organise the competition don't make it a priority, they're focused on the 6 Nations (a lot of them being the same people, like Feehan). The competition deserves leadership who will make it a priority, until we treat it as such we'll continue to fall behind.

A turd with a ribbon on it is still a turd. The Italian clubs get tiny support, the Scots only marginaly better. The Welsh still have a schizophrenic view of their club product and Irish support is dropping for the provinces, year on year.

European knockout rugby was the lifeblood of the provinces. Not being able to compete to the same levels is hurting attendances and viewing figures for the other competitions. Now there's a player drain starting and there's not much we can do about that either.

irishbucsfan

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

A turd with a ribbon on it is still a turd.

People were saying the same thing about Premiership rugby not very long ago.

It's very easy to stick your head in the sand and blame the Italians, Scottish or Welsh. I would be happy to do that if we were doing everything in our power, but we are so far from that. The reality is that the league is run out of Dublin, to the disappointment of some, by Irish people, again to the disappointment of some, and we have had the power to make changes and have not for years. Of course I apologise that I have been saying this for so long now that people are tired of hearing it but it's just getting worse and worse. I was put onto this years ago by one of the most intelligent men within Irish rugby and what is seen cannot be unseen.

We were behind on playoffs, we had to be dragged kicking and screaming into making European qualification meritocratic. Now we see that these changes have increased the competitiveness of the league and there's more to play for now than there has ever been. Suddenly mid-table teams are competitive every week because they have a reason to be. The reality is that a competitive league needs something for everyone to play for and we never had that, we still don't at the bottom end but that's unavoidable and I don't think it's all that problematic.

If we had that type of thinking (which does exist throughout the provinces) utilised correctly at the right times we would be doing a lot better than we are today. So long as the provinces are prevented from being anything other than vessels to prop up the national side we can't be surprised if club rugby in other nations is stronger than club rugby in our own.

Sayng all that, we will always maintain the 6 Nations money and we'll still be relatively competitive. It's certainly not the end of the world. We will always produce players and I'd be surprised if we don't regularly have 1-2 provinces in the knockouts of European rugby.

awec

I'd say the deal has been signed and all as Earls is in Ireland camp this week.

Tell the management yesterday and then start leaking to the media last night?

The Rape of Lucretia

The unofficial policy of not picking non Irish based players has to be a dead duck at this stage, such is the exodus. When the exiles were one or two first team possibles it was a deterrant. When its half a dozen or more, it is a hollow threat.

irishbucsfan

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The unofficial policy of not picking non Irish based players has to be a dead duck at this stage, such is the exodus. When the exiles were one or two first team possibles it was a deterrant. When its half a dozen or more, it is a hollow threat.

Definitely interesting to think about what could happen.

Wales' policy certainly didn't seem to last very long!

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The unofficial policy of not picking non Irish based players has to be a dead duck at this stage, such is the exodus. When the exiles were one or two first team possibles it was a deterrant. When its half a dozen or more, it is a hollow threat.

We have quite a few wingers can play where Earls plays. I don't think the selection issue will change until some more important to the team heads off. Like when Sexton did.

The Rape of Lucretia

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The unofficial policy of not picking non Irish based players has to be a dead duck at this stage, such is the exodus. When the exiles were one or two first team possibles it was a deterrant. When its half a dozen or more, it is a hollow threat.

Were fairly flush on the wing and Madigan is 3rd choice behind Jackson and Sexton.

Losing Moore is crazy and should result in serious questions being asked.

I'm still not sure there is an exodus just yet, and honestly, if the English national team doesn't start seeing some silverware I could see them introducing a quota system like France have done, dramatically levelling the playing field.

CMOTDibbler

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Definitely interesting to think about what could happen.

Wales' policy certainly didn't seem to last very long!

We actually can't afford such a policy. It was ever a hollow threat if indeed it ever existed.

awec

We are well stocked on the wing but Earls is probably a starter if fit and available. It isn't some 3rd or 4th choice player we are talking about here, the guy is probably first choice in his position.

Be very surprised if he isn't still picked for Ireland.

Neil3030

A group of English club owners gathered around a TV set to watch the 2012 Heineken Cup final between Ulster and Leinster and collectively agreed, "We can never let this happen again"

Congratulations lads. Job done.

Neil3030

A group of English club owners gathered around a TV set to watch the 2012 Heineken Cup final between Ulster and Leinster and collectively agreed, "We can never let this happen again"

Congratulations lads. Job done.

jm08

former total wrote: »

The competitiveness of the league does not need to be fixed. The amount of money that it generates is the problem and that is, unfortunately, not fixable.

Maybe it is fixable. Interview here with PRO12 Officials. Gerald Davies, PRO12 Chairman, blames the Welsh Civil war as the reason for the poor tv & sponsorship deals.

The civil war between the WRU and the Regions went on for two years. It was a very unsettling, awkward time, which affected the television rights and sponsorship deals. It created so much uncertainty. Companies weren’t going to invest in something where no one was sure of the future. Now we have people on board to move forward. There’s a certainty about the competition and we feel optimistic.

http://www.rugbyworld.com/countries/italy/the-big-pro12-interview-can-it-keep-pace-with-the-premiership-and-top-14-53103

CMOTDibbler

awec wrote: »

We are well stocked on the wing but Earls is probably a starter if fit and available. It isn't some 3rd or 4th choice player we are talking about here, the guy is probably first choice in his position.

Be very surprised if he isn't still picked for Ireland.

The same could (almost) be said for Marty Moore. I always believed he was the anointed one behind Mike Ross and in some cases ahead of him.

I wonder did he have a problem with Ross being ahead of him at last year's 6N? He never got a start and was then injured for the World Cup only to see Tadhg Furlong get ahead of him.

Might be a case of "feck that I'm off". It seems to have happened very quickly (a couple of weeks was mentioned?).

awec

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

The same could (almost) be said for Marty Moore. I always believed he was the anointed one behind Mike Ross and in some cases ahead of him.

I wonder did he have a problem with Ross being ahead of him at last year's 6N? He never got a start and was then injured for the World Cup only to see Tadhg Furlong get ahead of him.

Might be a case of "feck that I'm off". It seems to have happened very quickly (a couple of weeks was mentioned?).

In can be said for Moore too.

Both players will still be picked, I don't think we're in a position where we can ignore them. We are going to have to call up at least 3 tight heads to every camp.

former total

Neil3030 wrote: »

A group of English club owners gathered around a TV set to watch the 2012 Heineken Cup final between Ulster and Leinster and collectively agreed, "We can never let this happen again"

Congratulations lads. Job done.

What did we expect? That the status quo would continue forever? That we'd continue to get a bigger share of the pie than we were entitled to and that no-one would notice?

The English owners' responsibility is to their clubs, their players, their shareholders, not to ensuring it's a level playing field for everyone.

CMOTDibbler

irishbucsfan wrote: »

People were saying the same thing about Premiership rugby not very long ago.

Really? How long is not very long ago?

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's very easy to stick your head in the sand and blame the Italians, Scottish or Welsh. I would be happy to do that if we were doing everything in our power, but we are so far from that. The reality is that the league is run out of Dublin, to the disappointment of some, by Irish people, again to the disappointment of some, and we have had the power to make changes and have not for years. Of course I apologise that I have been saying this for so long now that people are tired of hearing it but it's just getting worse and worse. I was put onto this years ago by one of the most intelligent men within Irish rugby and what is seen cannot be unseen.

I'm not blaming anyone. Again, I'm just pointing out the reality. As for the organisation, yes it's run from a Dublin office, but it's owned equally by each union involved and the staff and CEO are shared with the 6N and the B+I Lions (not known for being backward in the promotional stakes).

Maybe it could have a separate staff, but that would cost money and I'm not sure what it would acheive. Clearly you 'know' something and are not prepared to divulge it, so I'll have to call bullsh1t in the absence of facts.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The reality is that the league is run out of Dublin, to the disappointment of some, by Irish people, again to the disappointment of some, and we have had the power to make changes and have not for years.

Hardly any Irish involvement in PRO12 now other than they are based in Dublin. The PRO12 Chairman is Welsh, Gerald Davies, the Managing Director is English (Martin Anayi), the marketing manager is also English I think and the Operations Manager is Scottish.

CMOTDibbler

former total wrote: »

What did we expect? That the status quo would continue forever? That we'd continue to get a bigger share of the pie than we were entitled to and that no-one would notice?

The English owners' responsibility is to their clubs, their players, their shareholders, not to ensuring it's a level playing field for everyone.

Everyone noticed. That was the point. The idea was to semi-subsidise the smaller leagues/Nations so that they would have a chance to develop without looking over their shoulders at the big boys poaching their players.

There wasn't a fast one pulled on the poor English and French clubs.

Winters

Not selecting Irish players for International games just because they play outside Ireland would actually play into the hands of the foreign clubs and would only increase the demand for Irish players next year and beyond.

The players must be released for the International windows if selected. There is no policy of not selecting foreign based players, to have such a policy with only 4 professional teams here would be crazy.

Look at the advantages of players leaving Ireland, it creates more opportunities for Irish qualified players to progress domestically.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

Hardly any Irish involvement in PRO12 now other than they are based in Dublin. The PRO12 Chairman is Welsh, Gerald Davies, the Managing Director is English (Martin Anayi), the marketing manager is also English I think and the Operations Manager is Scottish.

And the CEO is?

former total

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Everyone noticed. That was the point. The idea was to semi-subsidise the smaller leagues/Nations so that they would have a chance to develop without looking over their shoulders at the big boys poaching their players.

There wasn't a fast one pulled on the poor English and French clubs.

The bolded bit is news to me, I have to say, but either way, the model involved private enterprises subsidising their direct competitors. It could never last.

Now we (IRFU and provinces) need to adapt. Whatever we've been doing over the last 3-4 years isn't working.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

And the CEO is?

John Feehan who runs two of the biggest rugby tournaments in the world.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

John Feehan who runs two of the biggest rugby tournaments in the world.

Yes. And then also a little unimportant celtic league as a side job.

Iang87

Just on the policy of not picking players. Look at it in simple facts.

If you play your club rugby at a higher level week in week out we wont pick you for our international team.

Honest to Jesus is there any justification for such a ludicrous policy in something as performance driven as sport, let alone rugby.

A threat thrown out by the IRFU because its the only bargaining chip they've left

Iang87

Just on the policy of not picking players. Look at it in simple facts.

If you play your club rugby at a higher level week in week out we wont pick you for our international team.

Honest to Jesus is there any justification for such a ludicrous policy in something as performance driven as sport, let alone rugby.

A threat thrown out by the IRFU because its the only bargaining chip they've left

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes. And then also a little unimportant celtic league as a side job.

The PRO12 has a fulltime, English Managing Director - is that not enough?

CatFromHue

Iang87 wrote: »

Just on the policy of not picking players. Look at it in simple facts.

If you play your club rugby at a higher level week in week out we wont pick you for our international team.

Honest to Jesus is there any justification for such a ludicrous policy in something as performance driven as sport, let alone rugby.

A threat thrown out by the IRFU because its the only bargaining chip they've left

tbh I'm not sure if this rule actually exists.

former total

Iang87 wrote: »

Just on the policy of not picking players. Look at it in simple facts.

If you play your club rugby at a higher level week in week out we wont pick you for our international team.

Honest to Jesus is there any justification for such a ludicrous policy in something as performance driven as sport, let alone rugby.

A threat thrown out by the IRFU because its the only bargaining chip they've left

The official line is that it's not an actual "policy", it's a reflection of the fact that if you're not available for training camps and games outside the official windows, then you're less likely to be picked.

The policy is f**ked if this trend keeps up anyway.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

The PRO12 has a fulltime, English Managing Director - is that not enough?

Evidently not

irishbucsfan

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Everyone noticed. That was the point. The idea was to semi-subsidise the smaller leagues/Nations so that they would have a chance to develop without looking over their shoulders at the big boys poaching their players.

There wasn't a fast one pulled on the poor English and French clubs.

Masterful revisionism

OldRio

No matter what we do regarding sponsorship, TV deals and attractiveness of the Pro12. No matter who runs the league. No matter where the location of the offices.
We cannot compete with clubs that run up debts of £50 million and think nothing of splashing more cash on players.
Welcome to the world of Premiership soccer. Madness.

Mahatma Geansai

Unashamedly robbed from Yer Man on PlanetRugby, here are some stats from the provinces in Europe. Munster's surprising setpiece strength and Leinster's overall performance the standouts.

Team stats from the European Pool stages:

Scrums:
1 - Connacht - 44/46 = 95.7%
2 - Munster - 32/35 = 91.4%
3 - Ulster - 38/44 = 86.4%
4 - Leinster - 29/37 = 78.4%

Lineouts:
1 - Connacht - 81/91 = 89.0%
2 - Munster - 78/88 = 88.6%
3 - Ulster - 56/68 = 82.4%
4 - Leinster - 50/63 = 79.4%

Discipline:
1 - Munster - 1 card + 55 pens
2 - Connacht - 2 cards + 58 pens
3 - Ulster - 4 cards + 63 pens
4 - Leinster - 4 cards + 73 pens

Tries:
1 - Ulster - 21
2 - Connacht - 20
3 - Munster - 15
4 - Leinster - 5

Zzippy

Ah. I won't lose sleep over it til Darragh Fanning gets signed by Toulon. That's the day it will have gone too far!

CMOTDibbler

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Masterful revisionism

Admirable brevity.

CMOTDibbler

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Unashamedly robbed from Yer Man on PlanetRugby, here are some stats from the provinces in Europe. Munster's surprising setpiece strength and Leinster's overall performance the standouts.

Team stats from the European Pool stages:

Scrums:
1 - Connacht - 44/46 = 95.7%
2 - Munster - 32/35 = 91.4%
3 - Ulster - 38/44 = 86.4%
4 - Leinster - 29/37 = 78.4%

Lineouts:
1 - Connacht - 81/91 = 89.0%
2 - Munster - 78/88 = 88.6%
3 - Ulster - 56/68 = 82.4%
4 - Leinster - 50/63 = 79.4%

Discipline:
1 - Munster - 1 card + 55 pens
2 - Connacht - 2 cards + 58 pens
3 - Ulster - 4 cards + 63 pens
4 - Leinster - 4 cards + 73 pens

Tries:
1 - Ulster - 21
2 - Connacht - 20
3 - Munster - 15
4 - Leinster - 5

Actually Connacht's performance is standing out for me.

Scythica

I know Farrell isn't part of the coaching setup yet but it'd be silly to think that he won't have spoken to the existing team in some capacity.

Any chance anything he says might be taken into account for this 6n? Maybe he see's some potential in players to implement his defensive plans for the future which could sway any 50-50 decisions?

I know he won't be running the show but surely the assistant coaches will have some sort of input.

Neil3030

I just understand some people's mindsets here.

When we try use things in our favour (head office of a tournament being in Dublin, guaranteed qualification, etc) it's unfair and it's right that it gets corrected.

When English teams use things in their favour (greater populations creating more money, BT gambling to choke Sky, blind eyes being turned to debt and salary cap violations), it's totally fine, that's just private companies doing what they need to do, it's their prerogative.

techdiver

Neil3030 wrote: »

I just understand some people's mindsets here.

When we try use things in our favour (head office of a tournament being in Dublin, guaranteed qualification, etc) it's unfair and it's right that it gets corrected.

When English teams use things in their favour (greater populations creating more money, BT gambling to choke Sky, blind eyes being turned to debt and salary cap violations), it's totally fine, that's just private companies doing what they need to do, it's their prerogative.

I really worry for the sport the way things are going.

I have no interest in following a sport that will turn into another Premiership Soccer (on an obviously lesser scale).

The money men in England and France are ruining the game. I don't know how the English and French club supporters feel, but I wouldn't feel the same supporting a Leinster team that had little or no Irish players in their ranks.

Neil3030

techdiver wrote: »

I really worry for the sport the way things are going.

I have no interest in following a sport that will turn into another Premiership Soccer (on an obviously lesser scale).

The money men in England and France are ruining the game. I don't know how the English and French club supporters feel, but I wouldn't feel the same supporting a Leinster team that had little or no Irish players in their ranks.

Oh we'll have Irish players alright, but they will be the likes of Noel Reid and Darragh Fanning. But don't worry, a mid-table game between Dragons and Edinburgh might mean something so hurrah!!

irishbucsfan

Neil3030 wrote: »

I just understand some people's mindsets here.

When we try use things in our favour (head office of a tournament being in Dublin, guaranteed qualification, etc) it's unfair and it's right that it gets corrected.

When English teams use things in their favour (greater populations creating more money, BT gambling to choke Sky, blind eyes being turned to debt and salary cap violations), it's totally fine, that's just private companies doing what they need to do, it's their prerogative.

Noone has said anything like that. It's very clear you don't understand.

irishbucsfan

techdiver wrote: »

I really worry for the sport the way things are going.

I have no interest in following a sport that will turn into another Premiership Soccer (on an obviously lesser scale).

The money men in England and France are ruining the game. I don't know how the English and French club supporters feel, but I wouldn't feel the same supporting a Leinster team that had little or no Irish players in their ranks.

There are rules in both France and England that ensure that English and French players will be playing in those leagues. They're getting stricter all the time in France.

CMOTDibbler

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There are rules in both France and England that ensure that English and French players will be playing in those leagues. They're getting stricter all the time in France.

For a given value of 'strict'.

And they're not happy about that either. Lots of tantrums being thrown and Toulon joining the Premiership and the like being bandied about.

Because shouting, screaming and bullying work dontcha know. :rolleyes:

aimee1

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Unashamedly robbed from Yer Man on PlanetRugby, here are some stats from the provinces in Europe. Munster's surprising setpiece strength and Leinster's overall performance the standouts.

Team stats from the European Pool stages:

Scrums:
1 - Connacht - 44/46 = 95.7%
2 - Munster - 32/35 = 91.4%
3 - Ulster - 38/44 = 86.4%
4 - Leinster - 29/37 = 78.4%

Lineouts:
1 - Connacht - 81/91 = 89.0%
2 - Munster - 78/88 = 88.6%
3 - Ulster - 56/68 = 82.4%
4 - Leinster - 50/63 = 79.4%

Discipline:
1 - Munster - 1 card + 55 pens
2 - Connacht - 2 cards + 58 pens
3 - Ulster - 4 cards + 63 pens
4 - Leinster - 4 cards + 73 pens

Tries:
1 - Ulster - 21
2 - Connacht - 20
3 - Munster - 15
4 - Leinster - 5

Stats mean feck all in the grand scheme of things when all 3 ERCC sides were knocked out. The groups are hardly comparable by stats from games against toulon or wasps compared to stade and treviso.

irishbucsfan

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

For a given value of 'strict'.

And they're not happy about that either. Lots of tantrums being thrown and Toulon joining the Premiership and the like being bandied about.

Because shouting, screaming and bullying work dontcha know. :rolleyes:

It doesn't matter how happy about it they are, even though you're not painting a realistic picture at all. The rules are in and supported by the LNR (which is run by the clubs). Not every single member has to agree with it and keep their mouth shut.

Neil3030

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Noone has said anything like that. It's very clear you don't understand.

If you'd even bothered to look back in this very thread over the last hour...

What did we expect? That the status quo would continue forever? That we'd continue to get a bigger share of the pie than we were entitled to and that no-one would notice?

The English owners' responsibility is to their clubs, their players, their shareholders, not to ensuring it's a level playing field for everyone.

irishbucsfan

Neil3030 wrote: »

If you'd even bothered to look back in this very thread over the last hour...

You're either misunderstanding or being intentionally misleading.

Noone said when we use things in our favour it's unfair. We use our central contracting system completely in our favour and it's absolutely fair. Noone said it's unfair that the Pro 12 is based in Dublin, you just didn't read that properly.

It's unfair when we are enriching ourselves unfairly against the will of a pariticipant because their unions did a deal they disagreed with. That no longer happens. It's been dealt with fairly and it's over.