Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

phog wrote: »

According to Balls.ie CJ only heard he was included in the Irish Squad a few minutes before the squad was announced.

I'm shocked at that.

Maybe it was an attempt to stop things being leaked in the media too soon before the announcement or maybe it was a down to the wire decision?

CMOTDibbler

We got an e-mail, like five minutes before the media knew.

I was stressed, very stressed, it was a difficult two or three nights before that because there’s a lot of questions in your head but just to get that e-mail... I worked hard to get there and now I want to put hand up and see where it goes from there.

He's only been, like five minutes in camp like, and he's already, like talking like a Leinster goy like...

awec

phog wrote: »

According to Balls.ie CJ only heard he was included in the Irish Squad a few minutes before the squad was announced.

I'm shocked at that.

No leaks this year though.

They'll all be told a week in advance if they are playing a match and you can guarantee the team will be in the paper at some point before it's announced.

Couldn't hold their water.

phog

phog wrote: »

According to Balls.ie CJ only heard he was included in the Irish Squad a few minutes before the squad was announced.

I'm shocked at that.

Ha.

My first international call up I heard from someone else on the team and didn't get a direct confirmation call for another 2 days.

It's not shocking in any case, these guys are not owed some special duty of care to be told way in advance. Mostly they should be honoured and delighted to be called up. Stander doesn't seem to mind in anycase, seemed to more be commenting on his nerves beforehand.

Synode

Deleted User wrote: »

My first international call up I heard from someone else on the team and didn't get a direct confirmation call for another 2 days.

Tiddlywinks? :pac:

Zzippy

Deleted User wrote: »

Ha.

My first international call up I heard from someone else on the team and didn't get a direct confirmation call for another 2 days.

It's not shocking in any case, these guys are not owed some special duty of care to be told way in advance. Mostly they should be honoured and delighted to be called up. Stander doesn't seem to mind in anycase, seemed to more be commenting on his nerves beforehand.

Ah yeah, but they were probably worried Table Tennis News would get the scoop if they told you in advance, that's why all the secrecy. Loose lips sink ships! :P

thomond2006

phog wrote: »

According to Balls.ie CJ only heard he was included in the Irish Squad a few minutes before the squad was announced.

I'm shocked at that.

It has stopped the leaks on Planet Rugby anyway.

Synode

Synode wrote: »

Tiddlywinks? :pac:

World speed bovine artificial insemination championships.

CatFromHue

I'm not surprised about CJ only finding out so late.

The squad announcement was done as a surprise to most people I thought. There was no fixed time or even day of the week for it to be announced and even on the day it came out of the blue.

CatFromHue

I'm not surprised about CJ only finding out so late.

The squad announcement was done as a surprise to most people I thought. There was no fixed time or even day of the week for it to be announced and even on the day it came out of the blue.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

CatFromHue wrote: »

I'm not surprised about CJ only finding out so late.

The squad announcement was done as a surprise to most people I thought. There was no fixed time or even day of the week for it to be announced and even on the day it came out of the blue.

Nope. It was supposed to be out at lunchtime whatever day twitter was down. The IRFU tweeted something like Twitter's down so we can't announce the squad, oh well, we'll just have to do it tomorrow". I think they were joking but it was definitely expected that day. It was announced the next day then.

CatFromHue

Was it?

I'd no idea when it was meant to be out anyway.

CatFromHue

Was it?

I'd no idea when it was meant to be out anyway, nor did my associates!

awec

On the contract situation there is an interesting discussion on UAFC about players who sign provincial contracts but then move very quickly up the ranks. The example (and concern) is Henderson at Ulster. He signed a 3 year Ulster deal last January but is now probably Ireland's most important lock. This means by the time he comes to renew his deal in 2018 he's going to have been underpaid for a few years relative to his actual importance to the side. There will probably be lads who play less than him, or who are less important, who'll be getting paid significantly more. When he asks for a big increase to compensate for this, what are the IRFU going to do?

If I am not mistaken the exact same situation arose with Sexton? He was on a provincial deal for quite a while cause of the late blooming and was paid relatively poorly compared to his importance to the side. When he asked for his big increase the IRFU balked. They probably looked at the before and after number and got cold feet over the percentage difference.

Do the IRFU need to be more open to re-negotiating terms with players mid-contract when circumstances change drastically, rather than always waiting until the end?

I am not sure how true it is, but there is talk on UAFC that the IRFU are looking at giving Henderson a central contract but only if he agrees to play lock for Ulster instead of 6. I am not sure I have seen a player sign a new deal with 2 1/2 years remaining on his current one so I'm not sure how much this story makes sense.

awec

On the contract situation there is an interesting discussion on UAFC about players who sign provincial contracts but then move very quickly up the ranks. The example (and concern) is Henderson at Ulster. He signed a 3 year Ulster deal last January but is now probably Ireland's most important lock. This means by the time he comes to renew his deal in 2018 he's going to have been underpaid for a few years relative to his actual importance to the side. There will probably be lads who play less than him, or who are less important, who'll be getting paid significantly more. When he asks for a big increase to compensate for this, what are the IRFU going to do?

If I am not mistaken the exact same situation arose with Sexton? He was on a provincial deal for quite a while cause of the late blooming and was paid relatively poorly compared to his importance to the side. When he asked for his big increase the IRFU balked. They probably looked at the before and after number and got cold feet over the percentage difference.

Do the IRFU need to be more open to re-negotiating terms with players mid-contract when circumstances change drastically, rather than always waiting until the end?

I am not sure how true it is, but there is talk on UAFC that the IRFU are looking at giving Henderson a central contract but only if he agrees to play lock for Ulster instead of 6. I am not sure I have seen a player sign a new deal with 2 1/2 years remaining on his current one so I'm not sure how much this story makes sense.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

^ What are they going to do with Our Lord and Saviour Garry Ringrose?

awec

awec wrote: »

On the contract situation there is an interesting discussion on UAFC about players who sign provincial contracts but then move very quickly up the ranks. The example (and concern) is Henderson at Ulster. He signed a 3 year Ulster deal last January but is now probably Ireland's most important lock. This means by the time he comes to renew his deal in 2018 he's going to have been underpaid for a few years relative to his actual importance to the side. There will probably be lads who play less than him, or who are less important, who'll be getting paid significantly more. When he asks for a big increase to compensate for this, what are the IRFU going to do?

If I am not mistaken the exact same situation arose with Sexton? He was on a provincial deal for quite a while cause of the late blooming and was paid relatively poorly compared to his importance to the side. When he asked for his big increase the IRFU balked. They probably looked at the before and after number and got cold feet over the percentage difference.

Do the IRFU need to be more open to re-negotiating terms with players mid-contract when circumstances change drastically, rather than always waiting until the end?

I am not sure how true it is, but there is talk on UAFC that the IRFU are looking at giving Henderson a central contract but only if he agrees to play lock for Ulster instead of 6. I am not sure I have seen a player sign a new deal with 2 1/2 years remaining on his current one so I'm not sure how much this story makes sense.

Well a couple of things.

Firstly, if peoples performances improve so too should their terms and conditions. Nothing at all stopping an employer from topping up salary, happens in every other industry so should also happen in sports (though I don't know if it does).

Secondly, yes, employers have a nasty habit of basing offers in many ways on the current earning as opposed to things like actual value and potential earning of candidates. It's a common issue that arises, especially in careers where there are a lot of performance variables for the candidate, so sports is a prime industry for this.

I don't know what the IRFU are doing, but they definitely are taking a reputational hit right now.

Winters

awec wrote: »

On the contract situation there is an interesting discussion on UAFC about players who sign provincial contracts but then move very quickly up the ranks. The example (and concern) is Henderson at Ulster. He signed a 3 year Ulster deal last January but is now probably Ireland's most important lock. This means by the time he comes to renew his deal in 2018 he's going to have been underpaid for a few years relative to his actual importance to the side. There will probably be lads who play less than him, or who are less important, who'll be getting paid significantly more. When he asks for a big increase to compensate for this, what are the IRFU going to do?

If I am not mistaken the exact same situation arose with Sexton? He was on a provincial deal for quite a while cause of the late blooming and was paid relatively poorly compared to his importance to the side. When he asked for his big increase the IRFU balked. They probably looked at the before and after number and got cold feet over the percentage difference.

Do the IRFU need to be more open to re-negotiating terms with players mid-contract when circumstances change drastically, rather than always waiting until the end?

I am not sure how true it is, but there is talk on UAFC that the IRFU are looking at giving Henderson a central contract but only if he agrees to play lock for Ulster instead of 6. I am not sure I have seen a player sign a new deal with 2 1/2 years remaining on his current one so I'm not sure how much this story makes sense.

I do not believe that any contracts stipulate in what position the player plays for country or province.

S12b

Deleted User wrote: »

Well a couple of things.

Firstly, if peoples performances improve so too should their terms and conditions. Nothing at all stopping an employer from topping up salary, happens in every other industry so should also happen in sports (though I don't know if it does).

Secondly, yes, employers have a nasty habit of basing offers in many ways on the current earning as opposed to things like actual value and potential earning of candidates. It's a common issue that arises, especially in careers where there are a lot of performance variables for the candidate, so sports is a prime industry for this.

I don't know what the IRFU are doing, but they definitely are taking a reputational hit right now.

A direct quote this week from a family member of a player currently negotiating with the IRFU...."they're an absolute disaster to negotiate with, they make it so bloody difficult".

Now that's a pretty damning statement on it's own but when you consider the economic realities i.e the IRFU cannot compete financially with the English and French clubs, making the process more difficult than it needs to be and irritating the players is absolutely ridiculous!! If you can't offer the money, put your best foot forward in every other sense, including the actual negotiation process.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Deleted User wrote: »

Well a couple of things.

Firstly, if peoples performances improve so too should their terms and conditions. Nothing at all stopping an employer from topping up salary, happens in every other industry so should also happen in sports (though I don't know if it does).

The obvious solution, surely, is give someone a 2 year contract, for example, with the promise of a review at the halfway point. If the player has risen in stature and importance they can negotiate slightly better terms. If not terms remain the same until the next review/renegotiation.

awec

Winters wrote: »

I do not believe that any contracts stipulate in what position the player plays for country or province.

I agree, but I think the IRFU are more willing to interfere with selections when it comes to centrally contracted players.

"We'll give you a central deal, but be aware that we'll be expecting Ulster to play you at lock as a matter of preference."

awec

S12b wrote: »

A direct quote this week from a family member of a player currently negotiating with the IRFU...."they're an absolute disaster to negotiate with, they make it so bloody difficult".

Now that's a pretty damning statement on it's own but when you consider the economic realities i.e the IRFU cannot compete financially with the English and French clubs, making the process more difficult than it needs to be and irritating the players is absolutely ridiculous!! If you can't offer the money, put your best foot forward in every other sense, including the actual negotiation process.

This is nothing new unfortunately. Virtually ever player who has ever discussed their contract negotiations with the IRFU in their book or whatever has always said it is a difficult and frustrating process.

awec

And for what it's worth I am sure if must be frustrating for players to sit in negotiations to be told they can't have a three year deal when the bloke sitting on the other side of the table was given a 5 year contract based on absolutely sod all.

mfceiling

Soooooo.....what about that Ireland team eh?

Zzippy

mfceiling wrote: »

Soooooo.....what about that Ireland team eh?

Payne for the 13 jersey, yeah?

:pac:

b.gud

Zzippy wrote: »

Payne for the 13 jersey, yeah?

:pac:

Rob Kearney for 13 Payne for 15, that's what people wanted wasn't it?

Zzippy

Zzippy wrote: »

Payne for the 13 jersey, yeah?

:pac:

Not sure that's an option, has he been endorsed by BOD on twitter recently enough?

awec

awec wrote: »

And for what it's worth I am sure if must be frustrating for players to sit in negotiations to be told they can't have a three year deal when the bloke sitting on the other side of the table was given a 5 year contract based on absolutely sod all.

Are you comparing IRFU backroom staff contracts to player contracts?

bilston

mfceiling wrote: »

Soooooo.....what about that Ireland team eh?

Backline of Jackson, Gilroy, McCloskey, Marshall, Trimble and Payne for sure.

swiwi_

I must say a wee touch of schadenfreude here. Irish clubs have long taken and rarely given, and the fans here haven't given a second thought about the SH clubs losing players north. It's interesting seeing some of the reactions now that the shoe is on the other foot. The schemes offered by Australia and NZ to their players might be worth a look, or else you just go like SA and give up, and then select from overseas. I think Irish clubs hold onto (and play) their veterans too long tying up valuable funds and no doubt exasperating up and coming players.

Negotiating employment contracts in any high performance field is a pain in the face. Everyone has their own perspective and finding a middle ground can be very challenging (sometimes over relatively small amounts of money or inconsequential benefits etc.)

It doesn't surprise me that this happens, however it would appear that the IRFU could do with looking at their approach and perhaps either managing expectations better from an earlier point or simply removing any hint of lock step once a player is internationally capped.

I don't have any insight into how the IRFU manage this bar what you read online and in biographies so there is no obvious solution.

phog

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Maybe it was an attempt to stop things being leaked in the media too soon before the announcement or maybe it was a down to the wire decision?

awec wrote: »

No leaks this year though.

They'll all be told a week in advance if they are playing a match and you can guarantee the team will be in the paper at some point before it's announced.

Couldn't hold their water.

Deleted User wrote: »

Ha.

My first international call up I heard from someone else on the team and didn't get a direct confirmation call for another 2 days.

It's not shocking in any case, these guys are not owed some special duty of care to be told way in advance. Mostly they should be honoured and delighted to be called up. Stander doesn't seem to mind in anycase, seemed to more be commenting on his nerves beforehand.

thomond2006 wrote: »

It has stopped the leaks on Planet Rugby anyway.

CatFromHue wrote: »

I'm not surprised about CJ only finding out so late.

The squad announcement was done as a surprise to most people I thought. There was no fixed time or even day of the week for it to be announced and even on the day it came out of the blue.

What's the big secret for? It's crazy this day and age a guy must sit waiting by his email to see if he made a training squad.

The CIA wouldn't get a look in with this lot.

jm08

swiwi_ wrote: »

I must say a wee touch of schadenfreude here. Irish clubs have long taken and rarely given, and the fans here haven't given a second thought about the SH clubs losing players north. It's interesting seeing some of the reactions now that the shoe is on the other foot. The schemes offered by Australia and NZ to their players might be worth a look, or else you just go like SA and give up, and then select from overseas. I think Irish clubs hold onto (and play) their veterans too long tying up valuable funds and no doubt exasperating up and coming players.

NZ held onto the players whose position they couldn't fill so easily - Conrad Smith 34, Nonu 33, Carter 33.

jm08

phog wrote: »

What's the big secret for? It's crazy this day and age a guy must sit waiting by his email to see if he made a training squad.

The CIA wouldn't get a look in with this lot.

I don't know what the big deal over it was. Most knew who would be in it anyway. Players will be in and out of that sqad during the 6Ns, and we will hardly take any notice of it. Its not like it was the starting team v. Wales.

phog

phog wrote: »

What's the big secret for? It's crazy this day and age a guy must sit waiting by his email to see if he made a training squad.

The CIA wouldn't get a look in with this lot.

It's not like the first training session was 10 minutes after the email was sent.

It's a non issue and I presume Standers reaction has more to do with wondering if he was in or not. If he ends up a regular in a season or two he probably won't even read the emails anymore.

It's crazy this day and age what people get outraged about is more the point.

phog

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not like the first training session was 10 minutes after the email was sent.

It's a non issue and I presume Standers reaction has more to do with wondering if he was in or not. If he ends up a regular in a season or two he probably won't even read the emails anymore.

It's crazy this day and age what people get outraged about is more the point.

Are you trying to f up another thread?

Who's outraged?

I was simply surprised at all the secrecy.

Bazzo

phog wrote: »

What's the big secret for? It's crazy this day and age a guy must sit waiting by his email to see if he made a training squad.

The CIA wouldn't get a look in with this lot.

I remember Mako Vunipola saying a couple of years ago he found out he was on the lions squad from listening to the radio in his car so it doesn't seem to be that unusual tbh.

phog

phog wrote: »

What's the big secret for? It's crazy this day and age a guy must sit waiting by his email to see if he made a training squad.

The CIA wouldn't get a look in with this lot.

What a strange thing to take issue with

Pink Fairy

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Apologies, I meant competitiveness of pro12 teams outside of the pro12.

The pro12 itself is probably the tightest it's ever been.

That's more to.do with certain teams slipping backwards more than others improving

phog

Deleted User wrote: »

What a strange thing to take issue with

Why?

Reply by PM if you like and keep the thread clean.

Offer open to Venjur too.

The Rape of Lucretia

S12b wrote: »

A direct quote this week from a family member of a player currently negotiating with the IRFU...."they're an absolute disaster to negotiate with, they make it so bloody difficult".

Now that's a pretty damning statement

Yes, but a pretty biased statement. I wouldnt pay much heed to it - the other side is always 'difficult' when you are negotiating.

Zzippy

phog wrote: »

Are you trying to f up another thread?

Who's outraged?

I was simply surprised at all the secrecy.

There's no need for that. Tone it down please.

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you comparing IRFU backroom staff contracts to player contracts?

Yes partyjungle. Yes I am. Your assertion is spot on!

phog

phog wrote: »

Why?

Reply by PM if you like and keep the thread clean.

Offer open to Venjur too.

You said you were shocked that Stander had to wait for an email. What is the alternative that doesn't shock you?

A player has to find out if they are in the squad or not at some stage. Are you taking issue with the medium of communication? Whether its a phone call, an email or a piece of paper on a bulletin board; the moment will come with its respective stresses. I completely understand Stander's nerves approaching the moment. I think its silly to suggest this was mishandled.

Mahatma Geansai

Deleted User wrote: »

You said you were shocked that Stander had to wait for an email. What is the alternative that doesn't shock you?

A player has to find out if they are in the squad or not at some stage. Are you taking issue with the medium of communication? Whether its a phone call, an email or a piece of paper on a bulletin board; the moment will come with its respective stresses. I completely understand Stander's nerves approaching the moment. I think its silly to suggest this was mishandled.

The issue is obviously the players being let know only minutes before the media were informed. I would certainly be surprised that the players were let know so late. However, I don't think anyone really cares either way.

CMOTDibbler

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

The issue is obviously the players being let know only minutes before the media were informed. I would certainly be surprised that the players were let know so late. However, I don't think anyone really cares either way.

Perhaps if you state it like this: "The media were not informed until after the players were notified", it might not seem so awful. It just seems more disturbing when phrased the other way.

alias no.9

Synode wrote: »

So explain what advantage Irish teams had before the shake up?

The exact same advantage as the Welsh

swiwi_

jm08 wrote: »

NZ held onto the players whose position they couldn't fill so easily - Conrad Smith 34, Nonu 33, Carter 33.

Terrible ain't it jm08. All in such woeful form in 2015...

Personally, I think the NZRFU nailed it. There was only one way these players were going, and that was down. Conrad was already slowing up as illustrated by Johnny May. They parted on good terms after a handy enough end to the international season, and their considerable salaries will be put to good use I've no doubt. NZ may struggle to replace Nonu/Smith in 2016, we see. No worries for a replacement 10.

Now, I'm not deliberately choosing Leinster players here, but off the top of my head did Gordon Darcy in his last season, Isaac Boss, and Mike Ross really need contract extensions? Maybe they have all taken considerable wage cuts, and they're on peanuts now, I don't know.

But I asked on the Leinster thread a while back had any stalwart players simply not been offered contract extensions, rather than allowed to retire when they chose, and I think someone replied Malcolm O'Kelly IIRC, and that was it.

Tommy Bowe strikes me as another player who should be looked at seriously before offering new terms.

Unfortunately, age catches up with everyone, and I think while local loyalty is highly built into the Irish psyche, if retaining veteran players (eg Ross) at the expense of losing pups (eg Moore) is the cost of not taking a harsh stance once forwards hit 33ish plus, and backs 30ish then the IRFU and the clubs will need to review things.

phog

Deleted User wrote: »

You said you were shocked that Stander had to wait for an email. What is the alternative that doesn't shock you?

A player has to find out if they are in the squad or not at some stage. Are you taking issue with the medium of communication? Whether its a phone call, an email or a piece of paper on a bulletin board; the moment will come with its respective stresses. I completely understand Stander's nerves approaching the moment. I think its silly to suggest this was mishandled.

I'd expect this day and age that players would be notified the night before a training squad is announced.

I'd also like to think a few fringe players who might be in the running to make the training squad but didn't would get a call from one if the coaches to break that news to them.

Imho, the players deserve better.

Yeah_Right

Don't see what the big deal is about players being informed by email or text shortly before the announcement. Don't see why they can't wait for the actual announcement.

The exception being players from the previous squad or long term squad members should get a call telling them they DIDN'T make it and why.